Get your butt in the Gym

BTW, his programs unofficial motto is "somebody somewhere is outworking you."

This leads me to a question.. at what age did your boys really start focusing on their fitness levels?

In other words, they actually wanted to work out on their own?

Hard to know where to draw the line though.  I keep prepping my son for the eventuality he will not be at the level of his dream school.  Not that I don't believe in him I just think it is a tall order.  He insists thats still where his sights are set.  Then I have to tell him - again - that if this is what you truly want everyday you have to ask yourself, "what am I going to do TODAY to make myself a better baseball player?"  Might be a workout.  Might be yoga.  Time in the cage.  Long toss etc.  Usually a combination.  But when is enough enough?  Do we want our 14yo or 15yo putting in 4 hours a day every single day on baseball?  I am not saying we don't,  just raising the question.  Then comes the other reality...  can't play multiple sports and still put that time in.  Yesterday long toss 4:30 til 5.  Cages were full so went upstairs early for his scheduled workout - otherwise would have hit next.  Workout for about an 1:15.  Drive 35 minutes home.  Get home about 7ish.  Get a bite and go to basketball practice from 7:30 to 9:30.  Summer he will have hs football workouts, hs summer league basketball, AAU basketball, travel baseball and hs open gyms.  How much can these kids reasonably do?  

SoxIn7 posted:

This leads me to a question.. at what age did your boys really start focusing on their fitness levels?

In other words, they actually wanted to work out on their own?

It just hit my son in 8th grade.  I think it is 25% due to baseball and wanting to excel there and 75% because "girls" have started groping boys arms/legs/chest at school and giving their opinion on the hardness of said arms/legs/chest.

2020dad posted:

Hard to know where to draw the line though.  I keep prepping my son for the eventuality he will not be at the level of his dream school.  Not that I don't believe in him I just think it is a tall order.  He insists thats still where his sights are set.  Then I have to tell him - again - that if this is what you truly want everyday you have to ask yourself, "what am I going to do TODAY to make myself a better baseball player?"  Might be a workout.  Might be yoga.  Time in the cage.  Long toss etc.  Usually a combination.  But when is enough enough?  Do we want our 14yo or 15yo putting in 4 hours a day every single day on baseball?  I am not saying we don't,  just raising the question.  Then comes the other reality...  can't play multiple sports and still put that time in.  Yesterday long toss 4:30 til 5.  Cages were full so went upstairs early for his scheduled workout - otherwise would have hit next.  Workout for about an 1:15.  Drive 35 minutes home.  Get home about 7ish.  Get a bite and go to basketball practice from 7:30 to 9:30.  Summer he will have hs football workouts, hs summer league basketball, AAU basketball, travel baseball and hs open gyms.  How much can these kids reasonably do?  

It is about coordination of activity.  It drives me crazy to see my kid run/condition during baseball practice as he gets plenty of that from daily basketball.  That is time better spent on baseball specific stuff -- hitting, throwing, etc.

So with multisport athletes, you should look to avoid duplication and try to multi-task your workouts for multiple sports. 

SoxIn7 posted:

This leads me to a question.. at what age did your boys really start focusing on their fitness levels?

In other words, they actually wanted to work out on their own?

I'll second this question and add to it. Does a prepubescent kid gain anything by "working out", I don't encourage lifting weights but I do suggest pushups, pullups, box jumps and such. Is there really an "age" where you need to be doing more then just baseball stuff like hitting and throwing?

Hopefully you read the article. She was talking about getting reps in shooting baskets.  In the baseball world I would equate that to taking BP or hitting off a tee everyday. 

2020dad posted:

Hard to know where to draw the line though.  I keep prepping my son for the eventuality he will not be at the level of his dream school.  Not that I don't believe in him I just think it is a tall order.  He insists thats still where his sights are set.  Then I have to tell him - again - that if this is what you truly want everyday you have to ask yourself, "what am I going to do TODAY to make myself a better baseball player?"  Might be a workout.  Might be yoga.  Time in the cage.  Long toss etc.  Usually a combination.  But when is enough enough?  Do we want our 14yo or 15yo putting in 4 hours a day every single day on baseball?  I am not saying we don't,  just raising the question.  Then comes the other reality...  can't play multiple sports and still put that time in.  Yesterday long toss 4:30 til 5.  Cages were full so went upstairs early for his scheduled workout - otherwise would have hit next.  Workout for about an 1:15.  Drive 35 minutes home.  Get home about 7ish.  Get a bite and go to basketball practice from 7:30 to 9:30.  Summer he will have hs football workouts, hs summer league basketball, AAU basketball, travel baseball and hs open gyms.  How much can these kids reasonably do?  

Why do you keep saying that?  Your son has years ahead of him to improve his game. Do you think that any of us knew when our kids were in 8th grade where they would end up?  Why does an 8th grader have to worry about making himself better at 13?  

So you tell us 2020dad, how much can kids reasonable do? Why does a 2020 have an hour and a half workout? After he just did long toss? Then basketball practice for 2 hours?  

You situation sounds like my daughters boyfriend sons.  No wonder he ended up on crutches for 6 weeks. And now is restricted for one sport at a time, with a bit of an overlap. His father just thought he was an athlete, when actually he was just a young boy with a growing body that was getting overworked.

I knew for a FACT that my son in 8th grade was 

a knucklehead.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I knew for a FACT that my son in 8th grade was 

 

a knucklehead.

Mine wanted to be the next David Copperfield. It was magic, 24/7. He used to put on shows for the neighborhood.  He also wanted to be a golf pro, but he also loved baseball.

He didn't think about recruiting, or cared who was better than him, or who was going where.  He played like he was a stud (though he wasn't) and just had lots of fun.

And that is how it should be.

SoxIn7 posted:

This leads me to a question.. at what age did your boys really start focusing on their fitness levels?

In other words, they actually wanted to work out on their own?

Around 9th grade--when he signed up with a competent conditioning coach and his eyes were opened to the possibilities of what well directed, dedicated effort could achieve.

Until that time, he only thought he was working hard. Once he had proper oversight, he continuously revised upward his understanding of what it means to work hard.

CaCO3Girl posted:

It just hit my son in 8th grade.  I think it is 25% due to baseball and wanting to excel there and 75% because "girls" have started grouping boys arms/legs/chest at school and giving their opinion on the hardness of said arms/legs/chest.

I'm sorry, but this has to be the most laughable post I think I have ever read in 10 years here. On so many levels. SMH. 

YoungGunDad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

It just hit my son in 8th grade.  I think it is 25% due to baseball and wanting to excel there and 75% because "girls" have started grouping boys arms/legs/chest at school and giving their opinion on the hardness of said arms/legs/chest.

I'm sorry, but this has to be the most laughable post I think I have ever read in 10 years here. On so many levels. SMH. 

I fixed my spelling error, silly fast typing.  But happy to amuse :- )

2020dad posted:

Hard to know where to draw the line though.  I keep prepping my son for the eventuality he will not be at the level of his dream school.  Not that I don't believe in him I just think it is a tall order.  He insists thats still where his sights are set.  Then I have to tell him - again - that if this is what you truly want everyday you have to ask yourself, "what am I going to do TODAY to make myself a better baseball player?"  Might be a workout.  Might be yoga.  Time in the cage.  Long toss etc.  Usually a combination.  But when is enough enough?  Do we want our 14yo or 15yo putting in 4 hours a day every single day on baseball?  I am not saying we don't,  just raising the question.  Then comes the other reality...  can't play multiple sports and still put that time in.  Yesterday long toss 4:30 til 5.  Cages were full so went upstairs early for his scheduled workout - otherwise would have hit next.  Workout for about an 1:15.  Drive 35 minutes home.  Get home about 7ish.  Get a bite and go to basketball practice from 7:30 to 9:30.  Summer he will have hs football workouts, hs summer league basketball, AAU basketball, travel baseball and hs open gyms.  How much can these kids reasonably do?  

Hi Coach- I have to agree with Golfman here.  Can your son break up his workout portion to limit the lateral movement exercises on his basketball nights?  Meaning, isn't he getting enough start/stop and explosion work? I know it doesn't always work to sit out on certain drills if others are doing it. Just be watchful on what the 3.5 - 4 hours of work he's doing to the joints and muscles all the way up to Football season.  

Basketball is monday wednesday thursday and saturday sometimes sunday.  That doesnt leave a whole lot of days to work out.  Works out 3 times a week.  So tuesday is an automatic cause its open.  Want to take  day between workouts so thursday and sat or sun depending on basketball.  So really just the one day - thursday - that he does basketball and a workout.  Not optimal I know but there is so much time and thats it.  Then of course actual baseball needs to be worked in there as well.

2020 You are right.  My 2017 kid is working out and trying to gain weight, and he also plays basketball. It's really difficult. Practice or games 6 days a week, plus there is school, homework, friends, etc.  He can't work out on game days because he feels that affects his ability to play, and it's hard to work out after practice, or before school on the day after a game, because he's so drained.  And gaining weight - hard to do when you're burning that many calories.  He's gained 5+ during the season, but he's still as lean as a greyhound.

JCG posted:

2020 You are right.  My 2017 kid is working out and trying to gain weight, and he also plays basketball. It's really difficult. Practice or games 6 days a week, plus there is school, homework, friends, etc.  He can't work out on game days because he feels that affects his ability to play, and it's hard to work out after practice, or before school on the day after a game, because he's so drained.  And gaining weight - hard to do when you're burning that many calories.  He's gained 5+ during the season, but he's still as lean as a greyhound.

Big difference between  200 and a 2017 who is in prime recruiting  time.

True that. Just agreeing that off-season training for baseball is not easy for multi-sport athletes.   And yes, it's much more important for a 2017  HS student, and also much more difficult, as besides what's already been noted, it's by far the most important year of his HS academic career.

What age should a kid start working toward his goal?  If you wait til you are a recruitable age you may never BE recruitable.  7 months from high school...  yes definitely time to be putting forth as much effort as possible.

I don't know where I'd find it at right now or where I had seen it, but there's been research that demonstrates the increase of injury associated with the increased time working out. When an athlete works out more hours per week than they are in age, there is a pretty good increase in injury. Unfortunately, I'm going to guess that most kids today are very close to that line, if not exceeding it on a weekly basis. For months and years at a time. It's really pretty unfortunate. 

Bulldog 19 posted:

I don't know where I'd find it at right now or where I had seen it, but there's been research that demonstrates the increase of injury associated with the increased time working out. When an athlete works out more hours per week than they are in age, there is a pretty good increase in injury. Unfortunately, I'm going to guess that most kids today are very close to that line, if not exceeding it on a weekly basis. For months and years at a time. It's really pretty unfortunate. 

It doesn't matter what you say. There is a belief you are not being serious unless you have hit the gym, and it's become much sooner than necessary. They believe this will help prevent injury. 

A child (yes they are still children) who is extremely active playing sports doesn't need to workout in thevery gym.

But that's ok, they will get it someday.  When that injury occurs before they even get a chance for that coach to offer a scholarship.

TPM posted:

Bulldog 19 posted:

I don't know where I'd find it at right now or where I had seen it, but there's been research that demonstrates the increase of injury associated with the increased time working out. When an athlete works out more hours per week than they are in age, there is a pretty good increase in injury. Unfortunately, I'm going to guess that most kids today are very close to that line, if not exceeding it on a weekly basis. For months and years at a time. It's really pretty unfortunate. 

It doesn't matter what you say. There is a belief you are not being serious unless you have hit the gym, and it's become much sooner than necessary. They believe this will help prevent injury. 

A child (yes they are still children) who is extremely active playing sports doesn't need to workout in thevery gym.

But that's ok, they will get it someday.  When that injury occurs before they even get a chance for that coach to offer a scholarship.

 

Oh trust me, I know. How often do you think I have this discussion at school? I work at a large private school, where I'd guess close to 70% of our kids play a club sport as well as for the school... 

What are you counting as 'working out'?  If you are counting all time playing/practicing a sport we were in tons of trouble years ago when there were no cell phones or video games because thats all we did was play sports!  Many many hours a week over our age.  If you are talking strength and fitness my son puts in about 4 hours a week.  6 hours of basketball practice.  Roughly 3 hours of basketball games.  4 hours of baseball practice.  Maybe another3 hours of baseball work on his own.  And I suppose then you might even count gym class?  Staying within 14 hours counting absolutely everything would be next to impossible.  Unless of course you specialize.  Even then it would be hard but perhaps doable.  Then you will be criticized for specializing too young.  Lord knows we have covered that on here to excess.  So what would you suggest?  Modify that schedule for me.  Tell me specifically what you would cut out given the above numbers.  Or am I misunderstanding you guys and some of the stuff doesn't count?

A preteen doesn't need 4 hours in the gym with all that other activity with all different sports using different muscle groups unless he has overweight issues. 

I think that has been discussed, but you are of the school of thought more is better. Not necessarily so.

2020dad posted:

What are you counting as 'working out'?  If you are counting all time playing/practicing a sport we were in tons of trouble years ago when there were no cell phones or video games because thats all we did was play sports!  Many many hours a week over our age.  If you are talking strength and fitness my son puts in about 4 hours a week.  6 hours of basketball practice.  Roughly 3 hours of basketball games.  4 hours of baseball practice.  Maybe another3 hours of baseball work on his own.  And I suppose then you might even count gym class?  Staying within 14 hours counting absolutely everything would be next to impossible.  Unless of course you specialize.  Even then it would be hard but perhaps doable.  Then you will be criticized for specializing too young.  Lord knows we have covered that on here to excess.  So what would you suggest?  Modify that schedule for me.  Tell me specifically what you would cut out given the above numbers.  Or am I misunderstanding you guys and some of the stuff doesn't count?

Typically that refers to "organized sports activities." I don't often see a problem with that pick-up basketball game. Or playing ball in the back yard. It's the hours upon hours spent in the batting cage, on the soccer field, in the gymnastics gym, etc. 

Think about this... the NCAA has limits on how much organized activity is allowed in a week. But high school and youth athletes don't. Regardless of how big of a joke the NCAA limits may seem, it still very concerning that youth and high school athletes have NONE. 

TPM posted:

A preteen doesn't need 4 hours in the gym with all that other activity with all different sports using different muscle groups unless he has overweight issues. 

I think that has been discussed, but you are of the school of thought more is better. Not necessarily so.

 

 

Well he is not a preteen he is 14 and 7 months from high school.  My last thought on this thread.  We will have to agree to disagree.

I guess we wilI as 14 is just a number.  14s come in all shapes and sizes.  Some 14s are more physically mature than others.  I am assuming your player is more than likely big for 14?

You like to start a conversation but when you have had enough and don't care for opinions, you are done.

The NATA Position Statement on the Prevention of Pediatric Overuse Injuries

http://www.nata.org/sites/defa...Overuse-Injuries.pdf

Sorry 2020dad, I'm with the masses as well.  Just like I wouldn't be okay with my 2020 kid pitching 200 pitches in one day, I would not be okay with the stress that stop/go/crow hop pounding his knees would take with long toss, 1.5 hour workout (which likely involves sprint drills), and basketball practice would have on his knees in one day.

I can't speak for your area but my area is riddled with 13/14u kids with arm and knee growth plate issues. My son just texted me that the middle school was doing a track practice from 5-7 tonight, he wanted to know if he could go to see if he liked the team.  I told him he couldn't because he has sped and agility with his baseball team from 7-8 tonight and I didn't like the idea of that much stress on his knees for in effect 3 hours. 

Yeah, he's 5'10 and 160#, but he is still a growing kid.  Just because he looks like an adult with his dimensions doesn't mean he has all the right parts on the inside to support adult/near-adult activity levels.

TPM posted:

I guess we wilI as 14 is just a number.  14s come in all shapes and sizes.  Some 14s are more physically mature than others.  I am assuming your player is more than likely big for 14?

You like to start a conversation but when you have had enough and don't care for opinions, you are done.

 

No thats not it at all.  I will answer you if thats what you want.  I just feel like you get to a certain point in a conversation where all points are made and all it becomes from there is an argument.   I am very comfortable with other opinions and respectful.  I would of course like my opinion respected as well.  Seems only fair.   Thats why it is ok for me to just say lets agree to disagree.  Yes he is big and one of the older ones in 8th grade.  He is 6'3" and 220.  But many of my opinions were formed from years of coaching long before I had kids.  I am an older father because all I did in my 20's and early 30's was sports.  This son I had at age 39.  Gordie Gillespie was a legend in our town.  Not only did I spend time directly with him both in his office and classroom and practices but also learned from the great coaching tree there he is responsible for.  My high school - where I also coached for a bit has put more kids in mlb than any other high school in illinois.  I have observed first hand the work ethic it takes for these kids to make it.  I have been mentored by the best of the best coaches.  I bring this up strictly because I think when we talk about our kids - especially if they don't meet somebodies arbitrary age limit - we are automatically dismissed as over zealous dads.  Now of course that doesn't make me right all the time but I do think my opinions are drawn based upon some real good experience.   None the less I have always been open to changing my mind based on solid research.  So i will take everything said here into consideration.  But sometimes it still comes down to agreeing to disagree.

P.s. the funny thing about this is my post that started all this was asking the question 'how much is reasonable' expressing that I DO have concerns about him doing too much.  And I do sometimes think he is bumping up against that.  I am comfortable with what he is doing now but I do believe he is at about the limit of what he should be doing.

Well, this is definitely an interesting conversation.

When I first read the article, my thought was this...most baseball players work very hard on throwing and hitting, unlike what the Wisconsin coach was referring to in basketball.

What I tend to believe (at least for my kid), is that there is an absence in desire to the physical fitness part. At least from what I am reading, a lot of that is based on his age/grade and he will turn that corner as he matures.

The one thing I have tried to commit to is to not push my son too much as it is his dream, not mine. I just so happen to be passionate about his favorite sport.  With that said, I did design a 40 minute workout for him to do 3x per week (sprints, jumps, squats w/o weight, planks, etc.).

I also know the reality is he doesn't do it 3x per week and he cuts corners on it whenever he does do it..more like 2x per week.  He does it before I get home from work and I ask him about it, but don't enforce it, though I do comment, or to be truthful, lay a bit of a guilt trip on him when he chooses to do nothing, but I am trying to be better about it...just a little frustrating at times.

  One thing I learned from all of your comments is to be patient!!

SoxIn7 posted:

Well, this is definitely an interesting conversation.

When I first read the article, my thought was this...most baseball players work very hard on throwing and hitting, unlike what the Wisconsin coach was referring to in basketball.

What I tend to believe (at least for my kid), is that there is an absence in desire to the physical fitness part. At least from what I am reading, a lot of that is based on his age/grade and he will turn that corner as he matures.

The one thing I have tried to commit to is to not push my son too much as it is his dream, not mine. I just so happen to be passionate about his favorite sport.  With that said, I did design a 40 minute workout for him to do 3x per week (sprints, jumps, squats w/o weight, planks, etc.).

I also know the reality is he doesn't do it 3x per week and he cuts corners on it whenever he does do it..more like 2x per week.  He does it before I get home from work and I ask him about it, but don't enforce it, though I do comment, or to be truthful, lay a bit of a guilt trip on him when he chooses to do nothing, but I am trying to be better about it...just a little frustrating at times.

  One thing I learned from all of your comments is to be patient!!

You sound like a dad I knew from my sons 11u team.  He emailed out a winter workout that his boy did several times a week.  It was pretty rough.  The following year we saw him at a tournament, at 12u his right elbow and both knees were hurting him so badly he couldn't play.  He was in full uniform on the bench watching his team play without him while he hobbled around. Sad thing was his dad the assistant coach still used him to pitch since he was a lefty....I just don't get some parents.  

I think certain parts of a body have a limited use threshold at any given age. I'd rather my son use his up being a kid.  

CaCO3Girl posted:

SoxIn7 posted:

Well, this is definitely an interesting conversation.

When I first read the article, my thought was this...most baseball players work very hard on throwing and hitting, unlike what the Wisconsin coach was referring to in basketball.

What I tend to believe (at least for my kid), is that there is an absence in desire to the physical fitness part. At least from what I am reading, a lot of that is based on his age/grade and he will turn that corner as he matures.

The one thing I have tried to commit to is to not push my son too much as it is his dream, not mine. I just so happen to be passionate about his favorite sport.  With that said, I did design a 40 minute workout for him to do 3x per week (sprints, jumps, squats w/o weight, planks, etc.).

I also know the reality is he doesn't do it 3x per week and he cuts corners on it whenever he does do it..more like 2x per week.  He does it before I get home from work and I ask him about it, but don't enforce it, though I do comment, or to be truthful, lay a bit of a guilt trip on him when he chooses to do nothing, but I am trying to be better about it...just a little frustrating at times.

  One thing I learned from all of your comments is to be patient!!

You sound like a dad I knew from my sons 11u team.  He emailed out a winter workout that his boy did several times a week.  It was pretty rough.  The following year we saw him at a tournament, at 12u his right elbow and both knees were hurting him so badly he couldn't play.  He was in full uniform on the bench watching his team play without him while he hobbled around. Sad thing was his dad the assistant coach still used him to pitch since he was a lefty....I just don't get some parents.  

I think certain parts of a body have a limited use threshold at any given age. I'd rather my son use his up being a kid.  

CaCo,

Nah, not that bad lol.  I do get frustrated when that being a kid is in front of a screen and he gets no exercise at all for multiple days. Right now, outside of team practice, he probably gets  1 hr to 1.5 hours of exercise a week....and that includes his outdoor "play time"  

Wouldn't call that pushing him at all.

But as I have told him, you cant complain about it if you don't put in the work.

2020dad posted:

P.s. the funny thing about this is my post that started all this was asking the question 'how much is reasonable' expressing that I DO have concerns about him doing too much.  And I do sometimes think he is bumping up against that.  I am comfortable with what he is doing now but I do believe he is at about the limit of what he should be doing.

Yes, that is pretty funny because you did ask a question but you always get bent out of shape with the answers. Too bad you don't realize that people aren't as uneducated in the world of baseball  as you think they are.    This is not meant to be an argument but maybe you should think twice before you ask questions if you don't want to hear the answers.

What does it matter what age you had your son, I had mine at 36. I don't put face value on lots of stuff. My son had a coach in HS who was pretty involved with the pro game and probably one of the most intelligent guys in the game son ever played with. However, just because he never really paid attention to what a young boy should or shouldn't do, his sons arm was a mess by his freshman year in HS.  

There is SO MUCH more information available today to keep kids healthy, its a shame that some don't pay attention to it.

Why is it so easy for you to be insulting at times?  I get bent out of shape?  Where did I insinuate others are uneducated?  I don't want to hear the answers?  You mean others opinions I presume because no one of us can claim to have 'the answers'.  I really don't know why I came back to respond the last time or this time for that matter.  For quite some time your tone seemed friendlier.  Let's get back to that.  As for me I was right to end it with agreeing to disagree.  I will now go off and chastise myself for getting dragged back in.  But this time regardless of what gets said I am out of this thread.  Agreeably in our disagreement. 

I was making a point, if seen as an argument, that's ok, that's your opinion.

TPM posted:

A preteen doesn't need 4 hours in the gym with all that other activity with all different sports using different muscle groups unless he has overweight issues. 

I think that has been discussed, but you are of the school of thought more is better. Not necessarily so.

 

 

A point people really don't seem to get. Haha I didn't spend 4 hours a week on strength and agility training when I was a two sport college athlete. 

Although not the field I work in my BS and masters are in exercise science. People have asked me for years why I don't work my son out more. Even now as a freshman he just does some push ups and sit ups. Although we have added some explosive squats. When people ask "with your education why aren't you working your kid out more?" My response is the fact I don't work my kid out like you do your's should tell you something.