Getting inside/outside calls on the black

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Pirate Fan,

I do have a bit of a problem with your last post. I agree some coaches want to question a lot of calls, but you explanation of this can easily be looked at as an excuse for not working with your partner and making sure you do get the calls right.

Anyone who thinks that this is an excuse has no experience umpiring at the upper levels of amateur baseball (let alone pro ball). As the level of play increases the pressure to win increases and coaches look for every edge that they can find. This includes trying to bully an umpire into getting their way. If an umpire is willing to allow himself to be bullied into "getting help" all the time he is announcing to everyone there that he doesn't know what he is doing and the other umpire is carrying him. This is a sure-fire way to find yourself with fewer (and lesser) assignments. At the major umpiring clinics frequently getting help is referred to as "horse-****" umpiring, and it is just not an acceptable way to manage a game.

Please understand that I don't think that an umpire should NEVER get help, because there are times when he should, but a good umpire should get to the end of his season and be able to count the number of times he "got help" on one hand.

"Getting help" routinely is a mark of an inexperienced/uncertain official. That is someone I'd prefer to not work with. If my partner comes to me more than once in a game that is too much and we are going to talk about it before he has a chance to come to me for help a third time.

I want to "get it right" as much as the next guy and that is why I study the rules as diligently as i do and why I work on my mechanics so that I give myself the best possible opportunity to get every call right and I expect the same from my partners. If we are getting together to talk about rules that means that one of us either doen't know the rule or is unsure of the rule and that is unacceptable to me. and if we are talking about judgement, then there better be a darn good reason that one of us didn't see what we were supposed to see or there is a problem.


Now as for the "removing the cap to signal to your partner" practice, I strongly oppose this. There are coaches out there that either umpire themselves or they have had enough experience that they will pick up on that. The last thing in the world I want when I have a judgement call is for my partner to take off his cap and then the coach come out onto the field and inform me that "You got the call wrong, look your partner even thinks so!" I have never left a game because of my partner's actions but a situation like that would be reason enough. If he want to do my job as well as his own, then by all means I will let him.

As an umpire I resent people who don't umpire acting like they could do a better job than I can when they have no idea what I've committed to becoming a competent official. It is true that umpires who know the rules, use proper mechanics and are in the proper position occasionally miss calls, but it is MUCH more likely that when someone is complaining about a missed call they are obviously partisan and are really just upset that a close call went against them.

I have been following this thread but because of a harddrive problem I haven't been able to post.
I am the trainer for my area for both HS and LL. I spend many hours training my umpires and training myself. I spend a lot of time on the internet and in rulebooks trying to stay ahead of the curve on changes and interps as others also do. In doing so this should make you able to be in the proper place to make most calls without ever needing help. In a two man system this isn't always possible so getting help is a possbility, but should be rare. When challenged on a call if you can explain intellegently then getting help shouldn't be an issue. If you find yourself in a sittuation where you ask then do it confidently and game management doesn't become a problem. If it does then explain that it needs to stop or they leave. Secret signals shouldn't be needed with guys that are used to each other. When an umpire is confronted and isn't confident then the coach will detect weakness and will be all over you from then on.

fvb10 and MST - you are 100% correct.

As far as signaling my partner by taking my hat off, I have never done it or have seen it done in 10 years of umpiring.

Why? Because we spend a lot of time training, and if you get the distance and the angle you are going to get it right.

fvb10,

Sorry for the lateness of this post, but the last few days have been spent trying to keep sump pumps running and water flowing out of the house instead of in.

I wish I could say that we had the majority of our games done by 2 highly qualified top end umpires. The simple facts are we don't. As a simple example...I have seen so many blown calls at first base when there was a runner on first and the umpire is positioned in the middle of the field. Now a great many of these issues and other I truely believe stem from just plain bad umpiring.

Your assertion that an umpire should go an entire season and not have to ask for help on calls more than 5 times is a fantastic goal.
If you can truely achieve this, please move to NH!!!!

The reality is many calls are missed in the course of a season, and the ONLY thing that matters is getting the calls right!!! If that means you need to deal with an overzealous coach from time to time, then that goes with the game, the same way you guys say the players have to adjust to your strike zone if your behind the plate.

Is "sticking to your guns" really best for the game instead of checking with your partner (either openly or covertly)?

I am not trying to be an as_hole about this guys, I believe for the most part even the lackluster umpires get a majority of the calls right.

I think all we need to do is go back to the ALCS in 2004 to see how IMPORTANT it is to get together and make sure the call is right.

I'm sure we all recall this.........

"Bellhorn’s three-run blast was initially called a ground-rule double by left-field umpire Jim Joyce. After conferring with the other umpires, Joyce reversed the call, the correct one at that, and Bellhorn’s shot down the left-field line was deemed a homerun.

The umpires also reversed another call in the eighth inning on a critical play that involved a bit of deception on the Yankees’ part. With one out and Derek Jeter on first base, the Red Sox lead was cut to 4-2 with Alex Rodriguez at the plate.

Rodriguez tapped a grounder back to pitcher Bronson Arroyo, which Arroyo snagged and ran towards first base to tag the runner. As Arroyo reached over to tag Rodriguez, his left forearm was deliberately struck by Rodriguez, a karate chop that knocked the ball out his glove. Jeter alertly raced around the bases to score all the way from first, while Rodriguez ended up on second base, cutting the Red Sox lead to one run.

Francona then came storming out of the Red Sox dugout to argue the call. After fielder Doug Mientkiewicz blocked first base umpire Randy Marsh’s view, Marsh had to hold another umpire conference on the field to determine what had transpired on the play.

“You could see Alex take a swipe at the ball,” Francona said of the fraudulent play by Rodriguez.

After a short discussion, Marsh ruled Rodriguez out for interfering with Arroyo and ordered Jeter back to first base. "


Now there were two situations in one game where the original call was wrong. These are the best of the best at umpiring. The left field umpire was certainly the closest to the play on Bellhorn's HR and it certainly was his call. He was wrong though, and a conference ended up with the correct call. It did not make a huge difference in the length of the game to stop and get it right.

On the Rodriguez play, the first base umpire was blocked by the players from seeing what happened. He made the correct call for he saw, but he didnt see everything. Again, a quick conference and the correct call was made.

My point is simple, umpires do a great job but they do get some calls wrong. Determining if your partner has anything to add to the decision on the play is not going to stop the world of baseball as we know it. The kids who are working their tails off deserve the games to be called at the best level possible.

Just a few short years ago, neither of those calls in the '04 ALCS would have been reversed. All I am saying is do everything you can to get the call right.

Pirate Fan...

Man,....please move up here and take over umpire training.......

I think you have everything summed up nicely there.

" As far as signaling my partner by taking my hat off, I have never done it or have seen it done in 10 years of umpiring.

Why? Because we spend a lot of time training, and if you get the distance and the angle you are going to get it right. "

Your final statement hits everyone's point on this I believe.

"if you get the distance and the angle you are going to get it right."

That IF is HUGE, and if an umpire doesn't get it right and misses the call and you know he blew it....then what ?

Again, I'm not trying to be an a_ss on this, I wish we all had umpires as responsible to the integrity of the game as you are, but unfortunately we don't.

Thanks to all of you here who have helped me to gain a better understanding & respect for the job you do before and during the games.

quote:

Originally posted by Bubble Butt:
I have alway been taught to keep a consistant strike zone. why would a pitcher need to earn it? i might understand it in the bigs, but high school? why cant we all just be friends

I agree, hence my post. But our game was 13u.

quote:

I wish I could say that we had the majority of our games done by 2 highly qualified top end umpires. The simple facts are we don't. As a simple example...I have seen so many blown calls at first base when there was a runner on first and the umpire is positioned in the middle of the field. Now a great many of these issues and other I truely believe stem from just plain bad umpiring.

Your assertion that an umpire should go an entire season and not have to ask for help on calls more than 5 times is a fantastic goal.
If you can truely achieve this, please move to NH!!!!

The reality is many calls are missed in the course of a season, and the ONLY thing that matters is getting the calls right!!! If that means you need to deal with an overzealous coach from time to time, then that goes with the game, the same way you guys say the players have to adjust to your strike zone if your behind the plate.

Is "sticking to your guns" really best for the game instead of checking with your partner (either openly or covertly)?

I am not trying to be an as_hole about this guys, I believe for the most part even the lackluster umpires get a majority of the calls right.

Ive got to respond to some of the comments above, so Ive included this quote....

The thought that you could go a full season with out asking for help from a partner is not an illusion, I can readily tell you that I have not had more than 2 opportuniites this year where I felt I should or could go to my partner for "help"....

Ok, so why so?....

The vast majority of us who umpire, umpire in the 2 man system.....this is the most common format that you see most HS and youth ball umpired in. Only a few of us get to umpire in the 3man or 4 man crews more commonly seen in playoff or college baseball......

On each play, each umpire has his own set of responibilites to focus on....so when the homeplate umpire is focused on calling the pitch, the base umpire is focused on the pitchers move....very seldom are we both focusing on the same thing at the same time.....for example, a routine fly ball with a runner on.......one umpire has to have the catch, the other will watch for a tag up...now sometimes you can line up a catch and a tag so that you will see both, but its not the best way to do it....

There are few plays that both umpires will be in the position to offer help and even then, one of us will be at least 90" further away from the play.....

Baseball is a game of angles and distance, so my view of a swipe tag from Homeplate versus the base umpires view from 10 feet is a no brainer, we are going with his call....If he is not sure of the call, then he does not belong out there...Its his call to make and someone has to be the umpire....

As to the assertion that there are many blown calls at first because the umpire is in the middle of the field, well thats the limitation of the 2 man umpiring system...thats where the base umpire stands with runners on base......it has been determined that that is the best place to start from for the many calls that may come from having runners on base.

We have 2 sets of eyes, and 2 sets of responsibilities......the times we are focused on the same thing are few.....and to be honest, they should be rare.....to make sure we are calling the game correctly each umpire needs to be focused on his area of influence....

It takes confidence to be an umpire....you must be confident in yourself and your partner,. I do not have much confidence in a partner who wants help on calls that:

A. Are his (mechanically speaking) to make
B. That are 90 or more feet away from the umpire he is asking advice from....
C. Is bullied into asking for by a coach....

Now are there calls we can help with??...absolutely....so what are they....?

Check swings
Pulled foot at first (with no one on)
Tag on plays at first (with no one on)
Rules interpretations...

Other than that, youve got to get your own calls......I believe in getting it right, but when it comes down to it, I believe is up to me to get it right...now there are exceptions and I know I didnt cover them all.....

But I wanted to present an umpires view of "getting help"......

You know, every once in a while my wife says to me: "Honey, you need to get help."

This always puzzles me because she's never even attended one of my games.

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
You know, every once in a while my wife says to me: "Honey, you need to get help."

This always puzzles me because she's never even attended one of my games.

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

lol, I think your wife and my wife would get along pretty well!

NH...Dad,

I would reply directly, but piaa_ump said very well what I would have said.

To reiterate though, it should be a very rare occurance that an umpire gets help. last year I got help once and so far this year I've only had one opportunity to get help. There just aren't all that many opportunities to get help in the 2 umpire system. Last year I had a play where the first baseman fielded a ball over the base and instead of properly gloving the ball it hit the heel of his glove and fell out. He tried to recover the ball and ended up tripping over the base and landing on the ball and the base. I did everything I could to try to see if he had recovered the ball while he was laying on the ground covering half of the base. I was unable to tell if he'd gained possession of the ball before the runner reached first and I ruled him safe. What I couldn't see was that he'd cleanly picked up the ballunder his stomach before the runner got there, so after the defensive coach started onto the field I asked my partner for help and we got it right. What you see in this situation though, is that it takes a crazy third world play for me not to be able to do my job properly without help and unless something strange happens getting help shouldn't be done. If I have a partner who asks me for help more than once I'm gonna want part of his paycheck, cause I'm doing his job for him (probably at the expense of doing my own job as well as I can).

I know that you aren't trying to be argumentative, but I just want to point out that bad mechanics (asking for help all the time) doesn't compensate for poor umpires. If one of them is bad, what makes you think the other one will be any better?

There is a difference between the cases presented where MLB guys get together and in youth ball where there are only two umps. First, in MLB the game is 100 times faster so there are times you physically can't see all that happens. Second there are four to six guys so there is a better chance another actually saw something. In youth with the two man system most times the other ump has responsibilities and isn't even looking at the play. A case in point in a play-off game, Men's league, my BU didn't go out on a ball in RF the ended up being a diving attempt that I had to rule a no catch. The manager wanted me to go to my partner for help. I explained he wasn't even looking at the catch and had nothing to give me. He was watching the touch at first when the attempt was made. The manager just couldn't understand why I wouldn't ask. There was no need to ask an umpire that wasn't looking nor should have been.

"There was no need to ask an umpire that wasn't looking nor should have been."

This is so true in a 2 man system.

The other one that drives me crazy is hitting the batter in the foot in the box. If I'm working a competant partner I know he will kill it if he has it. The is no need to ask. The blank look on the manager's face is priceless.

Michael,

I am just curious here, your Base Ump disnt go out....but how did you know he was watching the touch?

what were you looking at him looking at the touch?

if not, how do you know he has nothing to give if you didnt ask?

Michael,

I was reading your post, please help me out on this so iunderstand the situation correctly.


Runner on first, and a fly to right it's the BU responsibility to watch the base tag and not the play in the outfield?

Piaa_ump,

quote:

for example, a routine fly ball with a runner on.......one umpire has to have the catch, the other will watch for a tag up...now sometimes you can line up a catch and a tag so that you will see both, but its not the best way to do it....

Please help me to understand this, how do you know if the runeer tagged up and didn't leave prematurely if your are not looking at the catch?

If I may be so bold:

What Michael is talking about here is the mechanics of the two ump system.

Admittedly, if the fly ball to right ended with a diving attempt at the catch, the base ump, from Position 'A', probably should have been in right field making the catch/no catch ruling.

If he didn't go out he has moved to the infield, made his pivot and now has responsibility for watching the batter-runner's touch of first base and also watching for possible obstruction by the first baseman. He now has no business watching the fly ball. His move to the infield has left that job to the plate ump.

If I'm Michael's partner and I move to the infield and watch the ball, that means neither of us is watching the batter-runner or the first baseman and that isn't good.

At a time that Michael feels is appropriate he's going to let me know, in no uncertain terms, what he thinks of my mechanics.....and it isn't going to be done nicely.

Therefore, Michael knows that if we run the mechanic correctly, when I moved to the infield there isn't any way I saw whether the catch was made. To appease the coach, he can ask me what I saw but he knows the answer will be: "Sorry Michael, I didn't see it. I had the runner."

Pilsner,

TY, greatly appreciated

just wondering though, ...the BU has a choice ? and the PU must watch him to determine what his responsibility is ?

quote:

Please help me to understand this, how do you know if the runeer tagged up and didn't leave prematurely if your are not looking at the catch?

In this scenario two things are being watched for:
1) the first touch of the ball
2) the catch

The runner can leave the base when the fly ball is first touched. One of the umpires is watching the runner's tag relative to that.

The other ump stays with the ball and fielder to the completion of the catch.

Sometimes the first touch and catch happen less than a second apart. Sometimes they happen a few seconds apart.

quote:

just wondering though, ...the BU has a choice ? and the PU must watch him to determine what his responsibility is ?

True, the base ump has a choice but he needs to choose quickly. You become accustomed, after awhile, to identifying trajectory as the ball comes off the bat. Generally, if I see that the ball is going to be high in right field, I'll move to the infield knowing that the right fielder will be able to get under the ball without much trouble. Lower trajectory balls or balls down the line cause me to immediately break for the outfield for the catch/no catch call or the fair/foul call.

I'll sometimes yell "going out" to my partner if he's less experienced. Most experienced umps at the plate simply take a quick glance when fly balls go to the right side and they know immediately what their partner is going to do.

Pilsner,

Thanks, I love the info Im getting out of this thread.

Can you explain to me how an umpire knows if the runner tags-up correctly in piaa_ump scenario ?

"for example, a routine fly ball with a runner on.......one umpire has to have the catch, the other will watch for a tag up...now sometimes you can line up a catch and a tag so that you will see both, but its not the best way to do it.... "

As PAII explained very well, the BU misread the play and came in instead of looking at the catch. Since I then had to take the catch I am looking through his position at the ball and could easily see him Not looking at the ball. And yes, I let him know later that he threw me under the bus in doing so.
As to the tag ups that PAII was talking about. In two man the BU has all touches at first and second. The PU has all touches at third and home. When The BU is inside his outfield coverage is from the LF to the RF, what we call the "V." The PU has RF to the line and LF to the line. If there is case where the ball falls in the BU's outfield coverage but there is a runner at third, the BU calls the catch but the PU will have the leaving early appeal at third. This means that the PU must swing around or back up to get the catch and tag in his view but actually calling each play belongs to two different umps.

Michael,

Thank You!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Piaa_ump,

quote:

for example, a routine fly ball with a runner on.......one umpire has to have the catch, the other will watch for a tag up...now sometimes you can line up a catch and a tag so that you will see both, but its not the best way to do it....

Please help me to understand this, how do you know if the runeer tagged up and didn't leave prematurely if your are not looking at the catch?

As the umpire responsible for the tag up I am only concerned about when contact between fielder and ball occurs and as soon as that happens i immediately move my eyes to the runner(s) that I am watching the retouches for. Because a catch (by definition) requires a fielder to dispay not only control of the ball, but also control of his body and then to make a voluntary release of the ball it is common for the ruling of catch/no catch to happen after i have removed my eyes from the fielder. Since my partner is watching the catch he will keep his eyes on that until the catch is completed and unless the ruling can be made in the first split second that the ball arrives I cannot offer him any relevant help.

Hope this helps!

What you say is true when you are only responsible for the tag. On a ball to center nad R2 you are responsible for both the catch and tag. If there is a R3 then you would have to also take him to third. This is what makes the two man tough and makes many umps very intolerate of chirping abut positioning. It has been said many times that two man is a series of compromises and sometimes things get missed. Even in three man things can fall through the cracks.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
What you say is true when you are only responsible for the tag. On a ball to center nad R2 you are responsible for both the catch and tag. If there is a R3 then you would have to also take him to third. This is what makes the two man tough and makes many umps very intolerate of chirping abut positioning. It has been said many times that two man is a series of compromises and sometimes things get missed. Even in three man things can fall through the cracks.

AGREED!

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your straight forward & honest answers! It is greatly appreciated.

I find it ironic, and humorous, of those coaches/fans who disagree with "borderline" pitches. The only person besides the plate ump that really sees a true pitch, is the catcher-- not the batter, pitcher, the defense, the base ump, or the coaches/fans. No one else has the right angle, or is close enough to tell where the ball crosses the plate. The "black" is what? -3/4 " wide? Its either a strike if its over or its not. I DONT CARE WHO WINS THE GAME.

you should be swinging at balls that are that close anyways