Getting on & off the field

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
You totally miss the point and now you're trying to twist what's going on. I never said what we did is the cureall and neither did anybody else. Its a tool to teach hustle. There are other ways to skin a cat so why get on here and criticize how we do things?

The sarcastic example you gave about having world class sprinters is being critical in a negative way to what we do. So don't get on here and tell me there is more than one way to skin a cat while telling me our way to skin a cat is wrong.

Jeez coach, I never for a second though anyone would be so thin skinned as to be insulted to hear anyone might believe the way they did things might not be the best. If you want to stifle any and all criticism of the way you do things, and stop anyone who chooses to do things in a different way from being complimented in any way, just say so.

I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic, even though you might feel it was. When I hear someone using a standard, I analyze it to see if it makes sense. Here’s what the standard was.

quote:

Originally posted by daveccpa:
My son's HS coach has started timing the kids getting on and off the field. The have 12 seconds to get off the field or they run after the game. The other day they had to run for being 1 second too long….

I know the outfielders furthest from the dugouts are often more than 300’ from them, which is 100+ yards. To me, making the team run because they failed to run a world class 100yd time under poor conditions is ridiculous! Now had the standard been 12 to 15 seconds or about 12 seconds, I wouldn’t have blinked an eye.

Our field is pretty close to the diagram in both OBR and the NFHS books, where there are about 60’ from foul lines to the dugouts. Our fence in right field is 330’ and our dugout is on the 3rd base side. So, a routine fly ball to right that’s caught 30’ in front of the fence, puts the RF 120 yards from the dugout, making that player have to break HS records in the 100yd dash in order to get off the field in 12 seconds. That’s what I was thinking of, and that’s why I said what I did.

Now maybe it was my mistake to think about being on the field as meaning being in his playing position and being off the field as being in the dugout, and you ‘re talking about anything between the foul lines as being on the field and anything else being off. I don’t know, and frankly don’t care. I was only going by the information I had available to me, and intended no insult to anyone.

What’s the standard you demand freddy77? I don’t care what it is, but as a parent, in order for me to properly counsel my son and support you as his coach, I’d need to know what to counsel him on.

world class sprinters do not know how to run the bases

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
What’s the standard you demand freddy77? I don’t care what it is, but as a parent, in order for me to properly counsel my son and support you as his coach, I’d need to know what to counsel him on.

Counsel your son to play it safe and err on the side of over-hustling. Also tell him that if isn't at practice at least 5 min. early with his cleats tied and shirt tucked in, then he's late. In other words, these are normal habits to succeed in the world.

Stats I guess you're just not able to think unless it's analytically. You're missing the point because you're focusing too much on the 12 seconds. First 12 seconds is a pretty long time and I would be amazed if a high school athlete is not able to run from the corner OF to the opposite dugout in 12 seconds. Secondly I doubt if any coach in their right mind (yes I realize there are those who aren't in their right mind but that's another topic) would hold a kid responsible for the 12 seconds if they tracked down a deep flyball AND hustled in. Third it's not that I'm thin skinned but I'm just amazed how you don't understand what we're trying to do based on your breakdown of dimensions and times and feet to the fence / dugout / whatever. I'm baffled how you just don't get it.

Just curious, do you allow kids to stand and wait for their glove and hat and hand their helmet and gloves to a coach if they are on base when the third out is called?

Our players hand their helmets to the nearest coach and then go straight the vicinity of their position and their glove and hat is brought to them.

Our players went back to the dugout. Only the pitcher and catcher went out on their own. The other 7 waited until everybody was ready and then went out as a group.

A lot of people would tell you that slowed the game down, but it really didn't. The pitcher still got 5 pitches. Worked well and looked good watching all 7 run out to their positions at once..

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Stats I guess you're just not able to think unless it's analytically. You're missing the point because you're focusing too much on the 12 seconds. First 12 seconds is a pretty long time and I would be amazed if a high school athlete is not able to run from the corner OF to the opposite dugout in 12 seconds. Secondly I doubt if any coach in their right mind (yes I realize there are those who aren't in their right mind but that's another topic) would hold a kid responsible for the 12 seconds if they tracked down a deep flyball AND hustled in. Third it's not that I'm thin skinned but I'm just amazed how you don't understand what we're trying to do based on your breakdown of dimensions and times and feet to the fence / dugout / whatever. I'm baffled how you just don't get it.

Well coach, perhaps you’re correct that I overanalyze things, but isn’t that better than not analyzing at all, or just saying things without regard to how true they are?

But let’s look at that 12 seconds realistically. If a foul pole is 320’ from home plate, and the dugout is 60’ beyond the foul line, that makes it 380’. That’s a fact. The record for HS in the 100 yard dash is 9.2 seconds. That’s a fact. At that velocity, 10.9 yards or 32 feet are covered every second. Extrapolating that velocity to the 380’, it would take 11.9 seconds to get into the dugout, and I’d hope there was some kind of net to catch a player running at that velocity, because they sure wouldn’t be able to stop in the 6 or 8’ depth of a typical dugout. So, those are the facts.

Now you and everyone else are certainly entitled to your own opinions, but you’re not entitled to your own facts. So no matter how long you “PERCIEVE” 12 seconds to be, in order for what you’re saying to be true, there has to be something else going on. I’m supposing that you just did that by admitting that there are mitigating factors. So the 12 seconds aren’t really a “rule” are they? What’s going on is, its your subjective analysis of what’s taking place, as to whether or not a player is “hustling”.

What you’ve done is assume I’m calling BS on you just to prove a point, and I suppose that’s true to some degree. But your assumption that I “just don’t get it”, implying I’m missing the entire point of hustling, is just flat out wrong. My point is, there’s absolutely no reason to use unrealistic criteria to teach players some point you want them to learn, and 12 seconds just isn’t realistic In many instances.

There are many other ways to get across what you’re trying to do, without slapping some time on them you’re only going to have to adjust. Our coach doesn’t use a stopwatch at all. His standard is that everyone on our team has to be on or off the field before their counterpart on the opponent’s team. That’s pretty simple, and its easy for the boys to look at the opponent players to see if they’re gonna have to stand in front of the team and apologize to all the players for insulting all their hard work, by not hustling.

Is that way “better” than using 12 seconds? I honestly don’t know. But if I was a player, I sure know I wouldn’t want my coaches to be dreaming up unrealistic things, just to prove a point. But on the outside chance I’m way off base here, I have my stopwatch handy, and at tomorrow’s opening day game I’ll be checking it out. If all of our outfielders are getting into the dugout or out to their positions in 12 seconds, I’ll apologize sincerely, and if they don’t I expect nothing from you at all. How’s that for an amicable resolution?

So if your coach is using "you have to beat your counterpart to the position" then how do you really know if a guy does beat the other guy? You're getting all bent out of shape over the fact the number 12 is arbitrarily used but how is that truly different from what your coach does? Either way it's best guess because there really isn't a starting line nor a finish line. It's just a mentality to instill in players to hustle. You were the one who jumped all over the 12 seconds like a dog on a bone. I know you're not ever going to admit it and probably try to twist it but it's a fact.

As for you checking to see if your guys can get here and there in 12 seconds tomorrow is a great idea....except

1. Are you going to tell them they are on the clock? Cause if you don't then the whole experiment is blown. The idea is a guy knows he has 12 seconds to get to the dugout. Now they have a mental clock going. If you don't tell them that mental clock won't be ticking. Next problem is you don't have the authority to tell the guys because it goes against what your head coach wants to do. Maybe you can ask him and maybe he will do it. I'll leave that up to you.

2. Where is the finish line? There has to be a specific spot that you determine where someone has to be in order to make the determination if they made it or not. If the far OF is about 30 feet into the OF from the IF dirt then is that good?

3. I'm not going to take your word for any of this anymore than you would take my word if the roles were reversed.

By the way - I'm done with this discussion. You can reply back if you want just to get the last word but this dead horse has been beaten like a drum. You just don't get the point we were trying to make and you were criticizing it regardless what you say.

Have a great season keeping book.

Not to be devils advocate, but I come with the perspective of doing whatever it takes to WIN THE GAME. If you, as a coach, have other objectives, such as instilling "discipline," then this doesn't really apply.

I just don't see how anyone can make a sound argument that sprinting on and off helps you win ballgames. If it did, you'd see big leaguers sprint on and off every day. They don't, because they save their energy and legs for when they need it. In the end, you win ballgames by pitching, hitting, baserunning, and fielding better than the other team.

During the game, both the coach and the players should have a lot better things to worry about than whether or not your RF gets off the field in X amount of seconds. To me, its rediculous that so much attention is paid to such a minute, meaningless detail with ZERO impact on the outcome of the game. Anything that takes your focus away from the core of the game (pitching, hitting, baserunning, fielding) doesn't help the team win. Timing players on and off is a perfect example of something that takes players "out of their zone" and may hurt their performance. It's important that players feel comfortable while playing to get their best performance out of them.

TR and Coach May great stories and true.
"Baseball teaches Life"

Jerry W. when he coached Sac CC, had a 9/5 rule.
Nine players off the field before the other team sent off 5 players.

During my 30 years of Area Code games and Goodwill Series International events, I often discussed this "hustle" situation with the pro scouts who were our coaches and they all agree with "honest" hustle before, during and after a game.

It is part of the 6th tool.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Williams:
TR and Coach May great stories and true.
"Baseball teaches Life"

Jerry W. when he coached Sac CC, had a 9/5 rule.
Nine players off the field before the other team sent off 5 players.

During my 30 years of Area Code games and Goodwill Series International events, I often discussed this "hustle" situation with the pro scouts who were our coaches and they all agree with "honest" hustle before, during and after a game.

It is part of the 6th tool.

Bob

Having watched many of Jerry’s teams play at SCC, one thing that was never a problem, was even the perception of a lack of hustle. I didn’t know his standard was 9/5, but it makes sense.

But the thing is, no matter what a coach uses to try to instill the “HUSTLE” mindset, if it works that’s all that counts. We could argue all day long about whether or not one specific thing is “right” or “wrong”. I don’t happen to think telling hitters to squish the bug is the right thing to do, but if it gets across to the hitter what the intention is, who cares?

My only concern, was that setting unreasonable goals with punishment as a consequence was not a very good way to instill much of anything other than fear.

Stats: Kudo's on the analysis. It makes perfect sense!

Thanx for the kind words RedSoxFan.

I took out the stop watch at yesterday’s game, and timed both teams on an off the field. I won’t bother to say what the times were, but suffice it to say, if not getting off the field in 12 seconds meant some kind of team punishment. There’d have been 45 boys bleeding from every orifice for all the running they’d have had to do.

I will mention this though, because I want it known that I did try to be as fair about it as possible. Before the game, I talked to the coach about it, and asked him to mention that someone would be timing them getting on and off the field. His answer was short and simple. “NO! I want them thinking about baseball, not running against a stopwatch.” Needless to say, I said nothing to anyone else about what I was doing.

So, the grand experiment is over, and can be summed up easily enough. You never know who’s watching you.

W need to get rid of stopwatches in the wrong hands ---the same with radar guns and video---lets get back to playing the game

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lets get back to playing the game

In spite of some that think they have reinvented it