Getting Recruited

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
My point is, as an example, let's say you are a RHP with good stuff but lower velocity and you are sending your video to schools that recruit 90+ guys only. .

I'm not meaning to be a "stick-in-the-mud" or a pain in the arse but this is where I think the problem lies. I can't think of any school who puts their recruiting life in the hands of finding 90+ guys. They are too few and far between at 17/18 years of age. As a result of throwing around that 90 number many parents/players feel as though those dream schools are out of reach. BS IMHO

Maybe my Northern ignorance is not in touch with the National recruiting crop but with all the elite schools in this country my money says there are no schools that fill their recruiting class with 90 guys and there are not enough 90's to pass around, and thats a dis-service to the 85-90 guys who know how to pitch but the 90mph fallacy is deemed a prerequisite to go to a elite school.

Below is an article. So why does it contradict the scouting reports we hear from showcases, publications, and every one of the "authorities" in between who make it sound like throwing 90 mph is a dime a dozen proposition??

What scouts look for in pitchers
This week, I got a number of questions pertaining to the MLB draft. The No. 1 question many of you had was what scouts look for in baseball pitchers. Here you go...

When scouting a pitcher, the first quality a scout will look for is arm strength. To an extent, this is a God-given talent. But you can improve it to a degree.

One game under a radar gun will tell if a pitcher has the arm strength to be a major league prospect. There are two basic models of radar guns used to clock the speed of fastballs. The Stalker Gun will pick up the speed of the fastball after it has traveled 2 feet. A fastball will lose 8 mph from the time it leaves the pitcher's hand to the time it crosses home plate. The average major league fastball is 89 to 90 mph on a Stalker Gun. Pro scouts rarely sign pitchers who do not throw at least 88 mph on the Stalker Gun.


CHECKLIST FOR GRADING PITCHERS

Fastball: The first thing a scout looks for is a fastball with good velocity and movement. A fastball should sink, rise, slide or tail. A major league fastball is in the 89 to 90 mph range.
(See chart below.)

PITCHING VELOCITY SCALE (STALKER GUN)

The number on the left is the "score" a scout will grade you. The number on the right is pitch velocity as recorded by the Stalker Gun.

8: 98 mph +
7: 93-97 mph
6: 91-92 mph
5: 89-90 mph
4: 86-88 mph
3: 83-85 mph
2: 82 mph -
Do you have what it takes to go pro?

http://www.stevenellis.com/steven_ellis_the_complete/mlb_draft/index.html

ok rz, not disagreeing with you.

But, then why do we hear people say the coach didn't look at their son because all the coach wanted was the guys throwing 87-90 (let's say for
arguments sake) and their sons were too small or told they needed to get bigger and stronger?

Actually what I see that happen they set their sites on a program and when it doesn't happen then it's about size and speed.

Understand I have never said that you have to be big or you have to throw 90 to get to play college baseball, I argue those who do state that.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
But, then why do we hear people say the coach didn't look at their son because all the coach wanted was the guys throwing 87-90 (let's say for
arguments sake) and their sons were too small or told they needed to get bigger and stronger?

Actually what I see that happen they set their sites on a program and when it doesn't happen then it's about size and speed.

Understand I have never said that you have to be big or you have to throw 90 to get to play college baseball, I argue those who do state that.

Someone was just quoted talking about schools that recruit only 90+ guys and just doubted those schools exist. The difference between 87-90 and 90+ is huge and the only point I was making was that regardless of the program, top 10 or not, 90mph is not a requirement.

A player may be passed by because he was not targeted by that school, who knows. But I also believe that there is a place for all players who want to play college ball. The devils advocate says maybe it's sites like this who's posters have kids who made a jump into better programs who unwillingly pass out rose colored glasses. Don't get me wrong, this site is A+ when it comes to advise and guidance but sometimes those parents on the other keyboard get to comfortable with our advise and direction. It's not their fault because it's their kid who they want the best for but reality says everyone plays with a different deck, and every path and outcome is also different

There is a place to play for those that want one, That said, the place may not be the first choice. Each school can add xx number of players per year, that number may or may not include one at a particular position. No one school can take every good player that wants to go there. They probably can't take half 10% of the good players wanting to play there. Some players capable of starting and doing well, are not even going to be recruited.

They only need a fraction of everyone willing and able to attend and play. It's a numbers game.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
In my mind the # 1 thing is TALENT coupled with the proper exposure----no matter where a player is seen if he has not got the talent then he won't be recruited m by many schools.

Once a player is a HS varsity contributor it is time to begin the exposure process

Awesome way to break it down in a nutshell TRhit.

I don't care how big the high school is, if a player isn't contributing as a Varsity player (and I will go out on a limb and say that most players that make it to the next level are playing Varsity by their sophomore year....I said most...I know the story of Michael Jordan) as a sophomore, I would highly doubt he gets better all of the sudden. Perhaps some high schools are loaded and huge and of course that could play into this as well.

rz,
You and I are saying the same thing. I think maybe Dad04 understands.
BTW, I have never ever said you have to throw 88,89, 90+ or be over 6foot to play at a top level program or any program, there is a place for everyone to play. I have never stated that you have to be 6 foot to be on a college roster.

My questions come from some that were asked today but not answered.

BTW, a link was posted in general regarding advice from Karl Kuhn, pitching coach at UVA (nice guy I met him last year). Good advice for pitchers. I thought the part about the towel drill and his comments were very interesting.

I am just wondering why some do what they do in the recruiting process.

Take the number of DI colleges and figure they will recruit on average 3-5 pitchers each year.

Then figure in a very good year there are an estimated 200-300 high school pitchers who can throw 90. (on average about one per DI college)

Then realize that some DI colleges get more than their fair share of these 90 mph high school pitchers.

Then understand that some of those 200-300 are underclassmen in high school.

Then take into account that some of the 90 mph high school pitchers are drafted and sign pro contracts and never pitch in college.

This all leaves lots of room at the DI level for those high school pitchers who don’t throw 90.

There has been some great advice in this thread and the other one started by o'brady.

I would not be detoured about achieving my goal in any manner. If I saw that videos and/or unsolicited cold-calling worked for even one individual, then I would try it along with all the other tried and true methods such as showcasing and high profile summer teams. Whatever it takes! Get yourself before a coach's eyes is the key to the whole thing!

I happen to believe videos are very effective. True story. Before I ever met CPLZ on this site, I checked the link on his bio page to his son's website and was extremely impressed. You could tell his son had velocity, a big time curve ball, and definitely a big/athletic pitcher's body. I told him I saw his son as a sure-fire D1 prospect and encouraged him to contact my son's school as well as others. I turned out to be right with my video evaluation and I am not even a pitching expert. His son is now happily enrolled at West Point. Come to think of it, that is another good tip. Many of the parents around this site (and scouts/coaches) have been around enough college players to know one when they see one. Make your son's videos available in our pitching or hitting forums and I'll bet that generates some leads if in fact he has decent talent.

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quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
This all leaves lots of room at the DI level for those high school pitchers who don’t throw 90.

Exactly. But the bottom line is, realistically target where you most likely would fit into a school and a program. Keep all options open, once you limit them, you knock yuorself out of the box.

As far as videos, I understand the purpose for some. And most likely good to have on hand in case you are asked. But I do agree with PG, it doesn't happen too often where a DVD sells a coach on a player. If that where the case, they wouldn't show up in the summer and fall to showcases.

Attending a good tourney playing on a good team, a well put together summer travel team with high exposure usually will bring results. JMO.

quote:

many parents/players feel as though those dream schools are out of reach.

That is a fact. That is why I tell people to not limit their scope. We always put accurate velo on our info and as I said no one said your too slow.
I think a guy who can throw 90+ with command is a great pitcher and will be looked at in pro and college.
A guy who throws 85- still has opportunity at even big colleges. Let them say no and at least give yourself an opportunity.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
.. playing on a good team, a well put together summer travel team with high exposure usually will bring results. JMO.

Especially when you perform as a standout player compared to the others

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Ever heard of Brett Hunter? Many expect him to go early in the first round of the draft this year. He was kept on JV as a junior. Just after his junior season he was throwing 87-90 on a Stalker. He signed with Pepperdine before ever playing a day of varsity ball and was a freshman all-american there. He didn't have control problems or attitude problems.

BTW, the same coach is doing the same thing to a pitcher this year who would be the ace of the varsity staff at most of the schools in the country.

You've mentioned this quite a few times before, so I was curious and searched for info. Below is a link to an article which has information that I think is relevant to understanding the situation.

In summary, Hunter was a catcher who had a season ending knee injury in the first game of his sophomore year. From the article:
``Catching is pretty much all I did growing up,'' Hunter said. ``I am the type of person who likes being in every play. Pitching was the next best thing after catching.''

So his junior year was his first year of pitching, and the article says he only had a fast ball.

Maybe the article glosses over some "dirty laundry" with respect to the coach, and maybe he had some travel ball pitching experience in the summer before his junior year, but based on the article alone, I'd guess that JV was the right spot for him. Remember, velocity isn't everything!
Daily News Article

quote:

I think a guy who can throw 90+ with command is a great pitcher and will be looked at in pro and college.
A guy who throws 85- still has opportunity at even big colleges. Let them say no and at least give yourself an opportunity.

This is a bit of a long winded story to add to the 90 MPH discussion:

My son (RHP – ’09) attended a camp at a D1 school a couple weekends ago. It isn’t a top tier D1 baseball program, but they seem to be working to build one. This was his / our first camp, and I had a couple questions after the camp, which I emailed to the recruiting coordinator.

This is one question:

“I'm curious how the staff viewed my son, and particularly, on what improvements should he focus in order to make himself more viable at the Division 1 level? “


Here is the recruiting coordinator’s reply to that question:

“Thanks for coming to camp. We hope (son) was able to take something home that will help him in the future as well as had the chance to be evaluated by our entire coaching staff.

We had (son’s) velocity at 81-84 mph. Curveball was consitantly 63. Change up was consistantly 67.

Our pitching coach thought (sons) body/mechanics worked well. Showed signs of having 3 pitches that worked, which is very important at this level.

The biggest thing that (son) needs to improve on to be a D1 prospect is to increase his velocity to sit at 85 consistantly and top out at the upper 80's.
We would suggest a strong weight program that includes a good long toss program to increase arm strength.”


Just a bit of background… I had a phone conversation with the camp coordinator, after which we made the conscience decision to attend the camp, even though my son had only been back into a throwing routine for ~3 weeks. We knew he would not be back to peak form. (His FB was clocked at 80-85 at an August Perfect game, and his HS coach clocked him at 87 in October.)

That said, I found the baseball recruiter’s reply to be very encouraging because the criterion given was NOT “throw 90 mph minimum”. That school’s expectations are well within my son’s reach. His goal is to get to 90 mph by his senior year, and I think he has a fair chance to get there. HOWEVER, he has 3 pitches he can throw for strikes, and even it he only adds a couple mph more and tops out at 89, it looks like he can be considered by some D1 schools.

Again, this program is not likely to make the CWS in ’08 or ’09, but they compete against teams who will make a run at the CWS.

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DadRinTX,
My impression is pretty much the same. Your son isn't that big yet but any kid who can sit mid 80s on a Stalker and pitch is D1 material. Maybe not at the 1 and only school he wants to attend, but certainly somewhere. If you look at the PG ratings they're pretty careful with what they say and from what I've seen a kid who is sitting 85 and hitting 87 or 88 is going to be rated at least an 8.5 which is between

quote:

9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect

Like I said they are pretty careful how they word those and when they say definite D1 prospect they mean it. For example, they list someone rated a 7 as a potential D1 but then they imply that they'd more likely be a DII or JUCO prospect and that's exactly where they rated one of the varsity pitchers who was a junior 4 years ago and maxed out at 81 mph at a PG underclass showcase and went the JC route before ending up at a DII this season. Obviously, they don't get it right every time and their ratings on a player change as the player develops so it is an art not a science. I'd say that 7.5 rating is probably pretty consistent with how the college evaluated him.

quote:

it looks like he can be considered by some D1 schools

Probably more colleges than you think.