GETTING WEIGHT BACK WHEN PITCHING

How did you lose it?

"Staying back" or "keeping your weight back" are old conventional wisdoms that just aren't valid. Neither is the popular "balance point".

You want to get your hips (i.e. your center of gravity) going!

So lunging is okay?

Nope. Didn't say that. Pitchers who stay back tend to encounter more problems - both mechanical problems and, more importantly, timing problems. By getting into foot strike more quickly, you eliminate extra time you have to make those mistakes. For example, by getting into foot strike more quickly, you'll be less likely to open up the shoulders early.

The delivery needs to be smooth and fluid - no artificial delays along the way. This optimizes the energy transfer between links up the kinetic chain. Staying back, in my opinion, works against this because it injects an inappropriate delay in the mechanics sequence.

But where is the weight (CG) at foot plant?

"Keep your weight back" is a verbal cue. It may be of help to some, and not to others. And verbal cues cannot always be taken literally.

Do you want the upper body going forward ahead of the front foot? No. Of course not.

Do you want the upper body to stay over the rubber throughout the delivery? No. Of course not.

And really, we are talking about the cg when we say "weight", are we not?

And the cg doesn't need to be moving out significantly at exactly the moment the free foot is going toward the plate. {Certainly not before.} This does not mean there is a discernible delay nor a lack of a smooth delivery.

Perhaps a term you might be more comfortable with would have something to do with maintaining balance until the appropriate time.

I think first we need to learn how to spell "weight"

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But where is the weight (CG) at foot plant?

Not sure what the point of your question is but at foot strike the weight is approximately half way between the front and back feet - possibly a bit closer to the front foot if the front leg is bent at foot strike and the back leg is extended.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
"Keep your weight back" is a verbal cue. It may be of help to some, and not to others. And verbal cues cannot always be taken literally.

I admit there was a time when I used this cue. But I don't use it any more. Cues that cause a pitcher to insert a delay or even just slow down their delivery usually lead to timing problems.

quote:

Do you want the upper body going forward ahead of the front foot? No. Of course not.

Agreed.

quote:

Do you want the upper body to stay over the rubber throughout the delivery? No. Of course not.

Agreed.

quote:

And really, we are talking about the cg when we say "weight", are we not?

We are.

quote:

And the cg doesn't need to be moving out significantly at exactly the moment the free foot is going toward the plate. {Certainly not before.} This does not mean there is a discernible delay nor a lack of a smooth delivery.

There is nothing wrong with the center of gravity starting forward before the front foot starts forward. In fact, it is a good thing - not necessary but good. It is a way to build up more momentum and get into foot strike quicker. It also eliminates extra time during which the pitcher can get make mistakes.

quote:

Perhaps a term you might be more comfortable with would have something to do with maintaining balance until the appropriate time.

It may be a timing problem or a posture problem or even a balance problem in which case I'd use a cue that mentions one of these things. But for me to be comfortable with a term I have to know the context in which it is being used - specifically, I'd need to know the mechanical issue we're trying to address. Since we're talking in general about "keeping the weight back", all I can say is that I think that cue often causes pitchers to delay and having extra time on their hands leads to problems (e.g. opening up the shoulders too early).

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

And the cg doesn't need to be moving out significantly at exactly the moment the free foot is going toward the plate. {Certainly not before.} This does not mean there is a discernible delay nor a lack of a smooth delivery.

There is nothing wrong with the center of gravity starting forward before the front foot starts forward. In fact, it is a good thing - not necessary but good. It is a way to build up more momentum and get into foot strike quicker. It also eliminates extra time during which the pitcher can get make mistakes.

quote:

Perhaps a term you might be more comfortable with would have something to do with maintaining balance until the appropriate time.

It may be a timing problem or a posture problem or even a balance problem in which case I'd use a cue that mentions one of these things. But for me to be comfortable with a term I have to know the context in which it is being used - specifically, I'd need to know the mechanical issue we're trying to address. Since we're talking in general about "keeping the weight back", all I can say is that I think that cue often causes pitchers to delay and having extra time on their hands leads to problems (e.g. opening up the shoulders too early).

We will just have to disagree on the cg moving forward before the foot. IMHO, that can lead to problems. The cg will be forward prematurely. This could lead to poor balance at foot plant. It could also lead to rushing of the lower body.

Different verbal cues are successful with different pitchers. Helps to have more than one in the toolbag. Just because a verbal cue doesn't work with some doesn't mean I throw it away. I would continue to use it with those where it does work, & find a different one for the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
We will just have to disagree on the cg moving forward before the foot. IMHO, that can lead to problems. The cg will be forward prematurely. This could lead to poor balance at foot plant. It could also lead to rushing of the lower body.

Fair enough. If we all agreed on everything, we wouldn't have good discussions like this. But, have you not seen a pitcher who gets his hips started before his front foot starts forward? Some pitchers get their hips started before their knee has peaked which is well before their front foot starts forward. It just means that their front leg has to be quicker getting to foot strike (assuming they maintain a good high knee lift). The result of this is a longer stride, less chance of opening up early, and a release point that is closer to home plate. Now, does this work for all pitchers? Of course not. But many pitchers could benefit from getting the hips going a bit sooner/faster by various degrees.

quote:

Different verbal cues are successful with different pitchers. Helps to have more than one in the toolbag. Just because a verbal cue doesn't work with some doesn't mean I throw it away. I would continue to use it with those where it does work, & find a different one for the rest.

Good point.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

But, have you not seen a pitcher who gets his hips started before his front foot starts forward? Some pitchers get their hips started before their knee has peaked which is well before their front foot starts forward. It just means that their front leg has to be quicker getting to foot strike (assuming they maintain a good high knee lift). The result of this is a longer stride, less chance of opening up early, and a release point that is closer to home plate. Now, does this work for all pitchers? Of course not. But many pitchers could benefit from getting the hips going a bit sooner/faster by various degrees.

If I understand properly, you are talking about the hip rotation (toward the plate, or unwinding) starting before the knee has reached the top of the leg lift?

I'm not at all saying you haven't seen it. Just that in all honesty, I can't recall having seen it. I will watch for it.

No, I'm talking about the hips starting a linear movement sideways (i.e. closed) toward home plate. No hip rotation yet - that doesn't happen until just before foot strike. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Oh, no.

I would say Gooden's cg is moving towards home in both clips before the foot in the "old school" thread. I'm glad you guys are discussing some of these things because my lil 12 yr olds mechanics have gone haywire towards the end of the season! Big brother is home now, maybe he can help straighten out this mess.

In "little" guys, I believe the problem is more with the shoulders. They want to open up the “leading” shoulder way to early. This causes many problems, most notably, loss of velocity and throwing across the body instead of toward the plate.

As to weight back, I try to keep it simple with my son, tell or rather remind him (he is 16 now) that he does not want to land hard on the front foot. Keep the weight back and simply transfer the weight forward with the momentum of the pitch.

But if he gets the hips going and gets into foot strike a little bit quicker, he won't have time to open up early. The shoulders will just be squaring up where they're currently already open. If he keeps the weight back, it's just about guaranteed that he'll continue to open up early because the shoulders will be ready to rotate but the total body isn't forward enough.

It's not about mechanics, it's about timing - being at the right place at the right time. We adjust the mechanics to achieve the proper timing but the goal is to have proper timing.

quote:

It's not about mechanics, it's about timing - being at the right place at the right time. We adjust the mechanics to achieve the proper timing but the goal is to have proper timing.

Roger,

I, for one, like the way you put that.

For me it all depends on the pitcher and what his arm swing is. A short backside guy can be quicker to the plate with the front side and a long arm swing guy needs extra time over the rubber to get this timing you talk about.Doesnt mean there needs to be a stop or pause. I will sometimes use the que stay back , I will also use the que stay over the rubber a little longer. Stay tall longer also works for some. Every pitcher reacts differently to different things, I try to use what works for the individual and run with it. I have seen where one que wont work where the same thing said different will. It is all about the timing and arm speed. I also think when guys break their hands is really important to the equation as well.

Al Ma 08,
chances are that if you watch the kid who is opening up early it has a lot to do with is land position of the foot.(needs to land soft at 1 oclock position for right hander, 11 oclock for the LHP) If the front foot lands open,(If the front lands at 12:00) the hips follow by opening to early. Once the hips go, the shoulders will follow, at this point you have lost all your core.

Solid post, dd.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
But if he gets the hips going and gets into foot strike a little bit quicker, he won't have time to open up early.

I am not sure what you mean by getting to foot strike quicker? That sound like rushing the pitch to me. I thought you wanted nice leg lift, glide to plant the front foot, then start the weight transfer forward on a solid front foot. What appears to make my son open up too soon is pulling in his leading arm too quick as he starts the hip rotation. When he keeps his leading arm moving forward a little longer his weight seems to transfer smoother and he gets more momentum moving forward before hip rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by AL MA 08:
I am not sure what you mean by getting to foot strike quicker? That sound like rushing the pitch to me.

What I mean is decreasing the time between first forward movement of the hips and foot plant. This is done by getting the hips going toward home plate a bit sooner and faster. This increases momentum and, assuming the same knee lift is maintained, a longer stride will result. Obviously, this could be taken to an extreme but that would be inappropriate.

quote:

I thought you wanted nice leg lift, glide to plant the front foot, then start the weight transfer forward on a solid front foot. What appears to make my son open up too soon is pulling in his leading arm too quick as he starts the hip rotation. When he keeps his leading arm moving forward a little longer his weight seems to transfer smoother and he gets more momentum moving forward before hip rotation.

I'm note sure what you mean by "then start the weight transfer forward on a solid front foot" but a pitcher's weight will start to shift forward as soon as the front foot starts forward.

But regardless, based on the other information you have provided, it sounds like the glove arm may be your son's issue. Many coaches teach pulling the glove. I don't - for a couple of reasons. First, pulling the glove often leads to timing problems as the glove isn't always pulled at the same time or with the same force. Opening up early is a common result. Second, a lot of coaches/pitchers think that pulling the glove helps the shoulders rotate and increase velocity. Now, about 80% of velocity does come from hip and shoulder rotation (as opposed to linear movement down the hill). But it's the muscles of the torso that pull the shoulders around - not pulling the glove. Good hip and shoulder separation and delayed shoulder rotation sets up the torso to pull the shoulders around explosively.

I teach my pitchers to leave the glove out over the front foot, to swivel the glove over so the palm faces their chest, to firm up the glove arm, and to bring the chest to the glove. The firm front arm provides a stable base for the throwing arm to throw against. (This is Tom House mechanics.)

I would suggest having your son practice keeping the glove out front. You can have him initially hold the glove thumb down to help keep the shoulder closed before swiveling it over as the chest comes to it if you think that will help. (Note, take this advice with a grain of salt. Without seeing your son pitch, it's hard to diagnose issues based on verbal descriptions alone. Many times, an apparent problem at one point in the delivery may actually be a symptom of a real problem occuring earlier in the delivery.)

quote:

Originally posted by AL MA 08:
In "little" guys, I believe the problem is more with the shoulders. They want to open up the “leading” shoulder way to early.

In my experience, in a lot of cases the problem is that they start out with their shoulders too open. Instead of standing sideways to the target (hips and shoulders closed), they start out facing the target (even if slightly).

Do it too much and you're "throwing like a girl".

This problem can then be worsened by what they do with their glove-side hand. If they point the glove to the glove side of the target, then the shoulders will be even more open.

Then they have no hope of getting anything on the ball.

Roger Tomas,

you describe the delivery very well, much better than I do/did. You really point out "timing" is the key and I have to agree. You are correct again with your description of not pulling the glove at the same time and the same force. I have seen my son do both of these. This has occurred as he has increased his fastball velocity, trying to pump it up! I hate it when I see the radar guns come out, but I believe he has finally been to enough showcases that he is not reacting to the gun any more.

I did seek local pitching coach help a couple years ago and recently changed coaches. He has worked through most of these things. Once they reach 13/14 they do not listen to dad very well and I realized I was out of my comfort zone with instructions anyway.

He throws hard naturally and recently hit 88 top speed with his fastball at 16 years old (as of July 06). I am very thankful that he has never had any arm or shoulder problems.

quote:

Originally posted by deucedoc:
If the front foot lands open,(If the front lands at 12:00) the hips follow by opening to early. Once the hips go, the shoulders will follow, at this point you have lost all your core.

The shoulders won't necessarily follow the hips opening in the early part of hip rotation. Once they've rotated 50 - 60 degrees, depending on the flexibility of the individual, the shoulders then become engaged. You can land with the front foot at 11:00 or 12:00 and have the hips open 60 deg. but the shoulders can still be closed. Hip/shoulder separation (and the timing of same) is one of the foundations of velocity generation.