Girls team at 13U Event!

With proper decorum coaching it isn't hard to be a good sport when you are 10 running another team. I would bet it would have been different had the girls been truly competitive.

Growth and development factors consisdered 13 is the last time girls can be competitive with boys because of strength parity.

I am glad it turned out well. Go androgens!

I have just learned that there is a young woman pitching on a local HS baseball team. She had played with my younger son in rec for years (till age 14.) Last year she reluctantly began playing softball in HS, but her mother says her first love is still BB. She really has always been very good-- easily making that allstar team in the park, and a standout among the boys she plays with. Fierce competitor and works very hard.

Well it pays off, she is one of the starting pitchers for the JV at her HS at age 16. I have to say I'm surprised, not because she made the team, but because the coaches and players have "allowed" her to be on the team. This is a school with a nice-sized talent pool (AAAA) and coaches who are not afraid to make unpopular cuts, so I'm guessing she has certainly earned her spot. We'll see if she can keep her spot all they way through varsity, but for now she is keeping ahead of the game and I'm very proud of her for standing her ground for so long. She loves baseball and is willing to work her butt off to keep playing... can't blame her for that! You go girl.

Again I ask the question---what happens when a male tries out for the softball team???

There is a HS here in St. Louis that has a SR pitcher/ 3B who is a girl. In MO, HS softball is a fall sport, so she gets to play to seasons. Evidently it has paid off, as I hear she has a scholly to play softball in college.
She throws a decent curve.

TR I have asked this same question many times when this topic comes up. Why is it cool and acceptable for a girl to play a boys HS sport and not cool and acceptable for a boy to play a girls sport in HS?

If your going to allow a girl to play HS baseball then you should allow boys to try out and play HS softball.

A woman who wants to play with men is saying she's better than all the other women. A man who wants to play with women is saying he's not as good as the other men. Is there a guy out there who got cut from his high school baseball team who would then want to try out for softball? Maybe... but I don't think so.

I can imagine that a girl who's played baseball her life wouldn't want to give it up in high school, especially if she's a pitcher who can get outs. I can also imagine that it might be kind of galling to see that professional baseball players have the opportunity to make millions, while professional softball players... is there even such a thing?

There was a female pitcher at the USC winter camp my son attended last year. She was slight and her fastball wasn't overpowering, but I think she got out every batter she faced -- with atleast one strike out.

LHPMom

LHPMom,

I believe you have answered the question. There are great women's softball players. But something about being the only boy on a girls team would be hard to handle. Wonder how many parents here would post on the High School Reporting forum... Our son went 3 for 3 in the girls softball game yesterday? Wonder what kind of response that would get? I guess it would be better than going 0 for 3 with three strike outs... which would be more likely to happen.

I don't necessarily agree with girls playing against boys. Sometimes I think it must be driven by parents ego or search for recognition. Seems that if the girl was that talented, she should try to become the very best at a girls sport. Wouldn't that be more important in the end?

The one thing that might be different is when the girl is better than most all the boys. If that happens why hold the girl back? The boy being the best among all the girls, obviously doesn't belong there.

That is the same answer always given when this question is asked. But it does not answer the question. So I will ask you. If a boy wanted to play HS softball do you believe he should be given the opportunity?

Coach May,

Don't know about everybody, but I actually think I would step in and say NO if my son wanted to play on a girls team.

Something about that banquet at the end of the year when they hand out the letters would be very embarrassing. Sure wouldn't feel like running around town bragging that my son just received a varsity letter in a girls sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
That is the same answer always given when this question is asked. But it does not answer the question. So I will ask you. If a boy wanted to play HS softball do you believe he should be given the opportunity?

It happened in LL Seniors Softball (age 15/16). Only boys made the team. Good softball players play ASA travel not LL. They won the LL Softball World Series. After the first game of the WS the other teams forfeited due to safety precautions and protest.

lol PG! I hear you on that one.

Simple: men can USUALLY physically overpower most women in sports as they enter their teens. It's not exactly a huge challenge for most men to compete with women for the same position on a woman's team. You'd end up with a men's softball team rather than a woman's team. I don't see that happening in baseball. You'd never have lots of women show up and outperform the majority of men on the team. You'd continue to have a men's team with a woman on roster from time to time. Every now and again, there is a woman who is better than most women and can actually compete toe-to-toe with men. By competing with men, they are able to stretch themselves farther and test themselves beyond the field they've been given, and have and opportunity to prove themselves on another level. Would this be true of men trying out for women's softball? Perhaps the answer is forming a men's softball team and a women's baseball team.

The determining factor, usually, for a woman being allowed to compete on a men's team is whether or not there is a women's team offered in the same sport. So, if a woman can compete in football or wrestling or boxing and her school doesn't offer that sport for women, she can tryout for a slot on the men's team. She DOES have to earn it. That's why you see women kickers in football, and in this case, a young woman pitching for her HS team. The coach could have cut her if he didn't think she could pull her weight. Plenty of others to choose from. He picked her when he measured her abilities against the guys on the field. That's the bottom line.

If a softball team were to be filled with men, I'm sure the other women's teams wouldn't agree to play them because there would be the perception of an unfair advantage. The baseball team isn't filled with young women. Her being there doesn't seem like an unfair advantage to the opponents-- don't you think?

There was a time when there were no male cheerleaders, but that was challenged and changed because there wasn't a comparable opportunity for men. It does go both ways.

Another perception is that softball girls are somewhat skewed in their sexuality. True?

She looks like she bats right handed, Daque! (Jennie Finch, USA softball Olympian...)

Daque.

I aint touchin that one!

quillgirl,

Very good points! If I were still coaching and one of the best players somehow happened to be a girl. She'd be in the lineup. What bothers me is when the girl is on the team but doesn't play. That just doesn't make any sense. On the other hand, if my son were on a girls team, I would pray that he never gets in a game.

I don't think there is any real problem here. I even think if the girl kicker is the very best, say the only person in the world who can consistently make 60 yard field goals... She belongs in the NFL! And I think she would be... Heck, everyone wants to win!

Jenny: You are a very pretty girl and an accomplished athlete. I expected a hard lambasting which you were kind enough to avoid.

The question revolved, in part, around the reluctance of males to participate in those sports provided for females. In HS this includes softball.

A number of hypotheses were offered and I offered the one that is in the back of the minds of many but which is not PC to mention. For a HS male it is socially unacceptable to participate in an atmosphere perceived as dominated by gays.

I make no judgements and could not care less. Rather I merely offer another posibility as to the reluctance of HS boys to participate in a girl's sport.

As an accomlished female athlete it is my impression that you more than anybody can comment on this perception with objectivity.

What would happen if a couple of guys wanted to play HS softball? Would they be allowed to play? I have no idea. But it would seem unfair to not allow them to play softball and at the same time allow a girl or girls to play HS baseball.

If a girl is allowed to play HS baseball because she wants to be challenged and can compete should a boy be allowed to play HS softball because he can not compete in baseball but can in softball?

A few years back a HS in NY had no mens gymnastics team but there was a young male gymnast in the school---he was not allowed to be on the female team---to this day I cannot undertsand it since gymnastics is totally a solo sport with no physical contact etc

Think about this for a moment as a way for the boys to get a point across in MO. they have softball in fall--let the boys go out for the softball team in the fall and baseball in the spring---do you think they would allow it for the men? They aparently allow it for the ladies---whould they allow the boys to do the same? Go for it guys !!!!

daque

I do not think the aspect of being *** enters into this because one never knows totally the sexual orientation of ones fellow players and in this day and age, particularly in our neck of the woods it really has no bearing

Coach May,
I think you have to look at it this way: the woman trying out for baseball (like this young lady at LSHS) CAN compete with her own gender and outperform them. She wants to tryout for the team and be judged by the standards set for men, which tend to be higher than those for women. This is not true the other way around. Women are smaller than men, and at equivalent age/skill levels, physically less strong. Men have an advantage over women in contests of physical strength, so it's generally considered an unfair advantage, all things being equal. I don't think you can compare the situation where a man tries out for a women's team because he CAN'T compete with other men (but perhaps can best most women) and a situation where a woman CAN compete with other women and would like the opportunity to compete at a higher level--with men. It's about finding ways to move UP as an athlete, not down. It would be easier to start a men's softball team than to try to field a women's baseball team. The only outlet for a woman who can play ball with the boys is to try out for a slot.

TR, I'm going to guess that men don't ever compete against women in gymnastics because their events are so different, and the elements they look for in judging are different, and because there are available men's teams to compete against. I can understand why this young man wasn't allowed to join the women's team, but I wonder why he wasn't allowed to be a one-man Men's team and compete against other men's teams at other schools. Maybe the women's coach didn't feel she could adequately coach him, or because they didn't have men's equipment to train him on, or there weren't any men's teams in the region for him to compete against? Who can say... In his case, I might have lobbied to start a men's team and be its first member. The nice thing about gymnastics: you don't have to play at your school to get a scholly. You're better off playing for a year-round team in large competitions. Same is true of swimming.

JMO.

TR,

What if it were your guy? Would you feel good about your son playing on the girls team? What if he made all state in girls softball?

PG, not really because it wouldn't seem like an accomplishment. I might be really proud if he were able to compete against and best a professional women's basketball star, or a women's pro golfer, etc. There is accomplishment in him competing at a high level and doing well.

But truthfully, I expect him to outperform most women his age at a sport he has been playing all his life. I wouldn't expect my daughter to beat most young men her own age, with all things being equal, because she is likely to have a disadvantage due to size and muscle strength. In the rare case when a young lady can excel on a men's team it is unusual and a notable achievement. Not true of men outperforming women of the same age and skill level. Not so rare, or notable.

PG

MY guy would not have because he hated softball but I might have just to test the waters and see what happens and if I made the team and got the MVP I would have given it to the girl I was taking to the prom

I would not have worried about accomplishment--I would be more concerned about proving a point--a point of equality

quote:

For a HS male it is socially unacceptable to participate in an atmosphere perceived as dominated by gays.

High school softball is not dominated by *******s (girls who like girls). At the collegiate level the percentage of softball players that are *** (prefer their own gender) exceeds the national percentage, but I wouldn't say dominated. I do know of programs where the percentage was over 50%. I had players who left over excessive "recruiting."

quote:

Don't know about everybody, but I actually think I would step in and say NO if my son wanted to play on a girls team.

Last year there were three male field hockey players in our state. Two are from Europe where male teams are normal. Their parents went to court for the right to play. The third is the son of a football coach I know. Dad isn't thrilled. They have to wear the official state mandated uniform which includes a skirt.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
daque

I do not think the aspect of being *** enters into this because one never knows totally the sexual orientation of ones fellow players and in this day and age, particularly in our neck of the woods it really has no bearing

I'm guessing Dacque was suggesting a different estrogen/testosterone makeup in the girls than typical girls.

Why do these girls playing softball seem to get labeled as being ***... Is it perception or is it fact? Seems kind of unfair to me! Does someone actually do some kind of study to compile the percentages?

What is the % of *** men playing other sports... other than mens figure skating, of course?

Does someone or some group go around asking everyone whether or not they are ***? If so... How do we prove these athletes are telling the truth?

My inquiry was related to a perception of same sexual preference that would be another factor why a boy would not want to play on a girls softball team. I have heard comments to this but have no knowledge of the validity.

Reverse the question for a second. What would your feelings be about your daughter playing on a boy's baseball team where there were a number of *** players?

OMH! The word cannot even be used and I thought it was the acceptable word. Let me try some others so I will not make that mistake again. Homosexual? Same gender sexual preference? What is the PC word?

My post was more of a story than a question, I just didn't know were to post it. But I will say on the above questions is I think a girl can play if she has the skills and a boy should not be allowed to be on a girls softball team. Men are physicaly stronger and it is ridiculous to even question it.
My story really was how suprizing it was how mature 13 yo boys handled it

quote:

Why do these girls playing softball seem to get labeled as being ***... Is it perception or is it fact?

My daughter said about 25% of her team are girls who like girls. Three players I've coached "switched teams" by soph year. A couple of others transferred due to "recruiting" we would call sexual harassment if it was a guy.

I hear you Baseball Dad.

No disrespect, TR, but sometimes when one tries to make a point, the point is missed. The reason we have sports teams for women is because they are unlikely to be able to compete with men for a slot on the men's teams. There would be very few women competing in sports if they always had to compete with men for a slot on a team. Not true of men. They will nearly always "win"their position when competing against women on the same field. This includes the pro levels. The very best female athletes (world class) cannot usually beat male athletes at the same level in their chosen sport.

There are occasional women who can compete with men to a certain level, and if the coaches are ok with it, there is really no ethical reason why they shouldn't be allowed to try. It would be a hollow victory to allow men to compete for slots on a women's team because the eventual result would be that women would again have no opportunities to play sports. Men would probably fill most or all of the slots and you'd have men's teams.

These are not equivalent situations, and the true point about providing equal opportunity for women to compete fully in athletics is lost when you interpret equality in such a rigid way. There is no "tit-for-tat" that makes sense here. Men will not loose most of their team positions to women who try out. There will still be men's athletics, dominated by men, even with an occasional female player who makes a team. There would be nothing equal about allowing women's sports to be dominated by men.

if you look at rosters for most schools baseball is termed "mens baseball" it is listed under mens sports while softball is listed under womens sports---I think there is a reason for it--and I still ask if a women can try out for a mens sport why cannot as man try out for a womans sport

Arent there two sides to this street?


And what is this "tit for tat" stuff? is that some feminist term?

When I was at my last school we went through a Title IX audit to figure out of if we were compliant in giving girls equal opportunities as guys. Things such as uniforms, equitable number of participants, locker room size and other things.

One of the things brought up was girls playing on guys teams and vice versa. What we were told is that guys cannot try out for girls sports because that would limit the number of opportunities that a female would have to play a sport but a girl can try out for a guy's team because of many reasons.

So legally according to Title IX a guy cannot try out for a girls sport but a girl can try out for a guys sport. But as RJM posted and other things that I have seen and read about over the years if a guy wants to challenge this through the courts then nobody can stop them.

I withdraw the question. It has been answered by default.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
if you look at rosters for most schools baseball is termed "mens baseball" it is listed under mens sports while softball is listed under womens sports---I think there is a reason for it--and I still ask if a women can try out for a mens sport why cannot as man try out for a womans sport

Arent there two sides to this street?


And what is this "tit for tat" stuff? is that some feminist term?

TR

Obviously, no.

The whole title 9 thing is bull.
March Madness. Male and female tourneys both ongoing. Watch a few of the "elite" female teams play. Not a lot of athleticism in any but a few women on most teams; yet there are just as many there on scholarships as on the mens side, where they are all athletic and the difference between best player and 6th man is almost nonexistent when compared to the gap between the actually athletic and the BIG girls that dont move around much on the women's side.

Baseball/softball lol. Issue is a little foggy there because there is the perception of similar but still different skill sets Consider the question in the more directly comparable mens and womens basketball. Should a man be allowed to try out for the womens team? Would he ever be allowed to? Ha.
Its never been about fairness or equality; its been about gaining an advantage

Tit-for-tat is not a feminist term, of course. I'm sure everyone knows what it means and how to interpret it correctly: "repayment in kind." It has been in use for a much longer time period than feminism has.

For the record, I think Title 9 is flawed and needs to be revamped, but to suggest that it is about women hoping to gain an advantage over men is absurd. Its purpose is simply to give women more opportunities and some semblance of economic parity. Were women allowed those opportunities in the first place there would be no need for the attempt at enforcement through legislation. Legislation tends to have a chain-saw effect when perhaps a scalpel would be the better tool for the job.

I've enjoyed the discussion, but there is nothing more to add that wouldn't be repetitive. I've never enjoyed banging my forehead on brick walls.

quote:

Consider the question in the more directly comparable mens and womens basketball. Should a man be allowed to try out for the womens team? Would he ever be allowed to? Ha.

The hang up here is 'Men's' vs 'Women's'. Bowling has solved this by changing to 'Open' vs 'Women'. Women can enter 'open' tournaments but men can't enter 'women's' tournaments. Probably what most sports should do since the alleged motive of men's sports is to put out the best team while women's sports are designed to give women the opportunity to play. There really aren't any Men only sports anymore. Almost every men's sport is 'open' to whomever can compete.

In bowling, a player who relies on power is called a 'cranker'. Someone who relies on accuracy is a called a 'stroker'. A player who does both is called a 'professional'... There are very few women power players and thus women can't compete professionally with men.

I recently read that "Miss Jay", the male runway diva from America's Next Top Model is actually straight, married, and has a son. You just can't tell these days, be it sports, TV, music, the cubicle next to yours....just doesn't matter anymore in this day and age.