Giving up on Pitching

Looking long term, if you pitch you can get by without all the tools.

Position player? If you can't consistently mash the ball, you will be weeded out. If you don't have good footspeed, you will be weeded out. Etc. Gotta have all the tools to be a position player.

Since the boy obviously has the potential, it is worth continuing. Sounds like he needs the most work on the mental aspect of pitching. Mental toughness. The attitude. And that takes lots of reminding from the coaches & parents. Plenty of refresher lessons along the way.

quote:

Position player? If you can't consistently mash the ball, you will be weeded out. If you don't have good footspeed, you will be weeded out. Etc. Gotta have all the tools to be a position player.

The boy in question is an excellent baserunner and hitter. 2nd highest batting average on our team, most stolen bases, most runs scored, etc. That's why one side of my brain is saying to let him quit pitching with no further discussion, he can defineitely play. I know that at some point in the not too distant future he'd probably need to choose either pitching or catching anyway - I've seen very few kids be succesful at both much beyond youth ball (Matt Weiters at Georgia Tech being one exception).

Please don't take this the wrong way. But at 12YO it is very difficult to judge what will be going on at 17. Heck, hard to project what will be happening at 14YO.

A kid who can "definitely play" at 12YO could (not "will", but "could") end up not having good enough tools at 17 to be a position player. Then again, he might. The bar for being a "real player" goes up every passing year. Pretty much exponentially so.

Why eliminate an option so soon?

My son's pitching coach told him to try to play the defensive positions as long as he can rather than just focus on pitching. His reasoning was that if your going to be cut from the team someday as a defensive player and you tell him you used to be a pitcher and would like to give it another try, they'll always give you a shot on the mound hoping to find something. If your a pitcher thats going to be cut, the coaches generally won't even consider letting you try to be a defensive player.

If you don't pitch regularly, it might be difficult to develop your potential as a pitcher. In which case when you get "cut" as a position player, you probably won't last long as a pitcher either.

If he doesn't want to pitch anymore then he shouldn't--don't force it

My son as a HS soph was throwing 88 to 90 range on the mound and just flat out decided to give it up because he liked playing CF better

So be it-- he polished his tools for what he wanted to do--- and it worked--a major college Division I scholarship

Let the kid play where he wants

In my opinion, if the kid has the ability to pitch effectively and I was his coach, I would make him pitch. If he doesn't want to help the team by pitching, then he can sit the bench.

Sometimes if a kid realizes that the more positions he can play the tougher it is for coaches to keep him out of the lineup, then he will be more willing to increase his potential options.

Don't get me wrong, I would work with the kid and his thinking about the subject, but a 12 year old, and older kids as well, shouldn't be the ones dictating who is playing what position.

Wow, Grateful! Are you suggesting that adults act like adults? And parents like parents?

I thought I was the only old fogie around who still held such beliefs.

Kids don't always know what is best for them. They can't see far enough down the road.

If a couple of years go by & the kid just can't stand pitching, then maybe things are different. But this situation sounds more like short term frustration due to a lack of success in the immediate "now".

I appreciate the replies and opinions offered. I realize I can't force a kid to pitch if he doesn't want to, and we're nowhere near that point yet. He came to me near the end of fall ball and told me he's thinking about giving up on pitching, not that he's definitely going to. I'm mostly looking for some insight from others who have been there and done that so that I can carry on an informed conversation with him.

Something we were talking about after one game caught my attention. The last half of the season he's been on a real tear hitting, something like 10 of 13 with 5 walks. I asked him if all the noise from the parents and the other team bothers him while he's batting, he said that he doesn't even notice it because he just somehow tunes it out. This is the same kid who complains about any little sound or motion or whatever when he's pitching. There's definitely a difference in comfort zones.

Like usuall I guess I get the minority opinion..While I can see that a player should go with his passion here is our story...not looking to aggrandize but it is pertient...

- Son never wanted to pitch. Heck, you do a perfect job and you're only even! And to be out there all alone taking the rap? All but myself? And the errors behind me? Forget it. Didn't like the limelight, didn't like the pressure.

- At 11 was told by his travel coaches, "Like it or not your the biggest kid and like it or not for the next 10 years coaches are going to expect you to pitch. Get used to it" Proved to be absolutely prophetic.

- Since then at every level he has been expected, not only asked, but expected to carry the load on the mound...and he still disliked it. Went like 22-4 in his varsity career and never wanted to pitch.

- This year as a senior he had to take the team on his back in the playoffs and was the winning pitcher in all three games. Breathed a satisfied sigh of relief when he walked off the mound for the last time...never again thank God.

- Went on Scholly at DI as a hitter only. No interest in the the showcases or in the recruiting for him as a pitcher. A week before school the pitching coach called and said get that arm ready, we didn't get all the pitchers we had expected and we have heard some great things about you on the mound your senior year. Guess what? They love him now as a two way guy. Back to the bump.

Couple other things...

First....College rosters have tons of pitchers, pro rosters have tons of pitchers. Statistically your best course is to at least leave the option open...you never know. I would always rather have two chances instead of one.

Second...A college coaches job it to win. Not only to get players ready for the professional ranks at specific positions. Many colleges move players around, give them a shot on the mound. Injuries, grade issues, the draft, transfers, make this a necessity for many schools. Particularly at DII and DIII levels.

Texan

Oh "wise one" do you want a kid on the mound that does not want to be there ?

I know darn well that I dont

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Texan

Oh "wise one" do you want a kid on the mound that does not want to be there ?

I know darn well that I dont

TR, I know you were asking Texan the question above, but it very easily could have been directed toward me.

I agree, I do not want a kid on the mound who doesn't want to be there. I also do not want a kid on the field who is putting his own needs ahead of the team.

This situation is different for every kid, every coach, and every team.

observer44, what is the rest of the story about your son being asked to return to the mound in college - is he enjoying it personally, or is it just something he is willing to do to help the team and maximize his own playing time?

My son started pitching at age 10 and though he has always been a 2-way player, in his heart he is a pitcher (now a 19-yr-old college soph). I remember when he was about 12 or 13 and pitching in a big game against the state champs, I asked him if something that happened in the stands had bothered him. He said he never saw, heard, or noticed anything happening off the field when he was on the mound. In Jr year of high school he was 1 out away from a CG no-hitter against a good team but honestly did not know it - he only focuses on 1 inning, 1 batter, 1 pitch at a time.

It seems to me that a kid really needs to want to be on the mound, to be able to handle the pressure well. But if he can pitch, it opens more opportunities at every level.

Many know that my son was a pitcher/catcher in college. He quit pitching at the beginning of his junior year of college after being a spot closer as a freshman and then a weekend starter in the SEC as a sophomore. His team had a coaching change and the new coach asked him what he wanted to do....he said he wanted to catch. The coach said "You need to play where your heart is". and put him behind the plate and left him. I agree with what my son's college coach said..."A player needs to play where his heart is!"
Most coaches don't intentionally "force" a player to pitch but it's a thin line between just "asking" and "forcing" a player to take the mound. The coach is the leader and the authority figure in the player/coach relationship and a coach's “wish” can be interpreted as an “order” in the player’s mind.
Fungo

grateful

I can never , ever see a coach or parent FORCING a kid to play where he does not want to or as Fungo so nicely says where his heart isnt

The team aspect has nothing to do with--the kid isnt being selfish --the kid just flat out doesnt like to pitch--and he wont on my team if he doesnt want to.

Playing devils advocate, how many 2nd basemen's hearts aren't in in it because they were switched from SS or CF who are asked to play RF or LF. I realize they weren't "forced", but if it's sit or switch, they switch.

Just wondering...

TR.....

I agree with what Fungo's son's coach did....he asked the player what he wanted to do. Every situation isn't like that, though. If Auburn had less than adequate pitching, the coach might have not even asked the question (we don't know).....therefore the team aspect can come in to play.

You claim the team aspect has nothing to do with it.....sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. All situations are unique. Coaches know if a player is being self-centered. As a coach, it is important to let the players know that they are important, and to be able to listen to them......at the same time, the coach must put the team ahead of the individuals.

I once had a college player who was a middle infielder. Our team was having problems at third base. I asked him if he wanted to play third, and he said no, so he spent a lot of time on the bench, since he was a backup middle infielder. He missed out on an opportunity to earn perhaps a full-time starting position at third, and somebody else got that opportunity instead.

I don't think this can be a black or white issue; I believe that with different circumstances different decisions might be made.

grateful

I see by your website that you "counsel" players with regard to stress and anxieties involved in the process

Isnt what you are posting here contrary to what you get paid for the hour/session?

Mind you I have no problem with your counseling operation but please be consisitent--"forcing" or "telling" a kid to play this position or that is contrary to who you say on your website., at least in my eyes

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Texan

Oh "wise one" do you want a kid on the mound that does not want to be there ?

I know darn well that I dont

TRHit, why do you insist on acting like a jerk? You had to come out with an attempted insult, when I leveled no insult at you.

I have had kids who wanted to "quit" pitching. Or who had already "quit" when they played for a prior coach. I worked with them, encouraged them, helped them achieve success. And been thanked later by the kids for "making" them pitch.

A 12YO doesn't really know what he wants to do in 15 minutes, much less in a year or two.

Try reading what posts actually say for a change. Not just what you want or think they say. Read the original post that started this thread. Then read all the responses carefully.

texan

I will tell you what Mr Texan---since you always have all the answers and apparently have a great disdain for this old man, I will not respond to you any more-- it isnt worth it-- you cannot be educated and I dont always need a lecture from a guy who is not willing to tell me who he is.

FrankF,
Good points! Being the father of a pitcher you know that pitching is different than any other position on the field. The mound is an island that can either be the best vantage point to see the victory or the most vulnerable position during the attack. Most young players want to be a pitcher at some point in their "career" but only a few have the make-up to stay there.
While a 2nd and a SS are different types of players, the difference appears to be mostly in their physical abilities and not their mental make-up.....maybe....possibly??
Fungo

MN-Mom...

Good question. And as much as I want to stay out of the current squabble it deserves an answer...

After you response I gave the thing a bunch of thought...

I think in the end it comes down to values. Old fashioned (some would say archaic) values.

Tried hard to impress on my sons early in their lives that there are times when team play dictates that you do what the team needs. Much like bunting or moving a runner along. There are times when your personal goals have to become team goals....if you want to play, and win, at a team sport....Also IMO great training for a day when they are part of a larger organization.

Second, we spent a great deal of time talking about personal growth. Going after those things that you disliked or were uncomfortable with in oder to slay those fears or dislikes and to develop as a player, a teammate and a person.

Specifically when the situation rose he always took on that responsibility because someone had to and he knew it was naturally his role to play. I don't think it ever entered his mind to say no. I would like to belive that he does so now for the same reason, the team, not simply for PT. In fact he has exhibited some frustration splitting time between hitting and pitching and feels he may not be doing either justice, meaning LESS playing time.

MN-Mom...I believe that your son's ability to remain so resolutely focused in such situations is a great skill, given to some, developed in others. I would argue that there are many times in life when we are required to take on difficult tasks...ones that we are not seemingly geared or perpared for...we can grow given the courage to take them on. If we enourage our charges early to consider larger goals, then I think as adults they will have to skills to take on larger issues.

I agree on the samller picture that at least remaining able to be considered as a pitcher leaves doors open for players.

JMO....

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
texan

I will tell you what Mr Texan---since you alwas have all the answers and apparently have a great disdain for this old man, I will not respond to you any more-- it isnt worth it-- you cannot be educated and I dont always need a lecture from a guy who is not willing to tell me who he is.

Sounds good to me. I don't need someone always trying to ignite a flame war.

As to whether I can be educated, of that you are wholly unqualified to judge. You don't know me well enough to make such statements.

Have a great life.

TR.....I am not being contradictory, though you have a right to feel that way. From 750 miles away and never having had a discussion, there is no way for you to know if I am or not.

Coaches are the authority figures on teams and have leadership and decision-making responsibilities, and they also have a responsibility to be compassionate and understanding.....I don't see any contradiction in that.....some people just have difficulty balancing both attributes.....I am not one of those.

Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote about all situations being unique, rather than black and white.

Thanks for asking, though!!!

observer44, good points about all the different factors that enter into decisions on what's best for the team, and how individuals can develop their strengths and improve their weaknesses. My son may get the opportunity to test his composure and concentration a bit further this year (soph in college) as he is expected to be the closer. He would have really enjoyed getting a starter spot, but since his coach has said this will probably be his role, he is getting excited about it and hopefully will be up to the challenge. I have a feeling I will be a little nervous for him.

I have told this story before.
If you told my son at 12 he would only be a pitcher he would have laughed in your face. It was his least favorite position. Every position he played he played well, although not a power hitter he got on base more than anyone else, walked more than anyone else (he was picky with his pitches), faster than anyone else. He played every position, ss and third his favorites, later on a better catcher than the catcher, but he was too skinny . He declared to us on many occassions during that time that he didn't think he wanted to pitch anymore, but we knew that was because that position wasn't the easiest, wasn't always the most fun,and he had a lot to learn about pitching. The more he learned, the more success he had, the better he liked it. Just like Observer44's son, he was told by his coaches that like it or not, that is what they needed him for, with teh promise he could play other positions as well. His coaches were all very good coaches, tough, if he ever told them he didn't want to pitch you'd better believe he would have been ridin' the pine.

At 15, 16 son realized he really didn't have all the tools (he lost his speed) to be a position player but he did have all the makings to be a fine pitcher someday. He also realized he had the mental toughness. Realization came one day (around 15)while in a pitcher's dual for an important win and saw that all eyes were on him and the other pitcher. They were in complete control of the game, no one else. It was one of the most exciting games he had ever played. After that he was eager to learn as much as he could about being a pitcher, not just a LL pitcher, but a pitcher.

At 12 you really don't know what the future will bring, you are there to have fun and learn the game. The more you know the more you learn, the more opportunities will come your way. The best players, the ones who get drafted, the ones who get good scholarships are the players who are more versatile and flexible. At 12, it's a lot harder to understand what your heart is saying than at 17,18, 19,20. Hey guys, the player is 12. I say learn all you can, the younger the better.

Encourage your son or player to continue pitching, talk to him to find out what is bothering him. Maybe he needs some lessons to help him feel a bit more confidant.

I enjoyed Frank's post, how many kids have you known that had to switch because the coach felt that it was right for the team? Get used to it folks, just because you play ss in HS doesn't mean you will play ss in college, or professional ball either. The coach tells YOU what you are going to do, not the other way around (unless he asks). If you want your kids to move up to the highest level, prepare them for that as well.

TPM, a great example (from someone else) of what I have seen.

Your son has accomplished so much. Would he have achieved as great of heights in baseball had he given up pitching?

Side note:
MN-Mom, my son had done a lot of closing - albeit at a lower level of ball. He loves closing and has done very well at it. But I must admit to being a little uptight at first when he ran to the mound with bases loaded, no outs and a one run lead. But with each passing year, that feeling has faded. I hope your son comes to love the closer role as well. Good luck to him this spring.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Texan:
Your son has accomplished so much. Would he have achieved as great of heights in baseball had he given up pitching?


Answer to your question, absolutely not!

.
Mn-Mom...

My point exactly. Nothing more challenging than a closer role. Great opportunity for the young man to hone his skills, particularly the mental ones. Bet he'll be welcoming the challenge. The great ones do. Will be waiting for a report!


TPM...good example of how quickly and thoroughly things can change. Last year watched a DI inf. become a catcher!

Texan, thanks for the well wishes. Fortunately, my son did me a big favor in the parental nervousness dept. He had such an inconsistent freshman year that I feel like nothing will bother me this year!

observer44, yes, he does look forward to a challenge!

O44,
That inf must have been practicing as a catcher. HArd to be an IF player one day the next day a catcher. Catching like pitching, is a skill that takes years to develop to be effective.

TPM:
That is a great story. I'm glad you told it again because I had not read it before. I'd love to meet your son (and you!) someday.

Question--- how does one know that if a player gives up pitching he would not be where he is today ?--- perhaps if the player kept pitching he would not have made it to the college level--I know my son made it there because he WANTED to be the best centerfielder he could be and he, as I said , gave up pitching in HS and threw upper 80's to 90 as a sophomore

Again I say this--let the kid be where he wants to be

TR...

You are entitled to you beliefs. They are not 100% right nor are they 100% wrong. Every kid is different and every situation should be treated differently. If you son hadn't had the success that he has had then your feeling would be different. I am happy that your son's choice was the right one for HIM. Just like everything else in baseball, there is more than 1 right approach.

A little nervous, MN-Mom?? LOL
Pressure packed, day in and day out....
It takes a special player and a special parent
to endure such demands. I wish you the best.

We have had a closer the last couple years who sounds like your son....As you say, not a typical closing flame-thrower but a pitcher with good command and a nice variety of pitches. He was able to pitch alot, effortlessly and successfully. The only concern I would have is the possiblity of over-use in terms of warming up daily and then the # of games he enters in high-pressure situations.
By the end of the year our player was toast....

This is a nice topic.

TR,
You don't know, that's the point. At 12, it's pretty hard to know where most kids will be at by HS, college. Son probably could have given up pitching and been a fine college player, but I doubt he would be playing where he is , gotten a nice scholarship he has if he was not pitching. I am very glad that when he told us he wanted to give up pitching we didn't say, "OKAY baby, that's ok and don't worry, no one is going to force you to do anything you don't want to do". Instead we said, "hang in there".

At 12,that's a bit different than deciding later on where your passion lies. At 12, mine also wanted to be the next Tiger Woods, the next Michael Jordan and the next Dan Marino. We gave him the opportunities, though some of them pretty silly, but the point being at TWELVE you really don't know which direction you might be headed.

You are talking about what you son decided in HS, not in LL at 12, there is a difference, for me.

You could never imagine how much he DID NOT want to be a pitcher. He knew that he would play every 4th, 5th game. He knew he would do a lot of bench sitting, the only bat he would see was the one called fungo. It killed him.
It still does, but he knows he has chosen the best position for HIM. I feel a lot of really fine pitchers give up because of their passion for the game, to be in the mix at all times. Shame. You can't imagine how many position players tell him they WISH they had never given up pitching.

Excellent post, TPM.

BTW,
I forgot, son at 12-13 was so into magic he thought he would be the next David Copperfield.

Only problem he discoverd later on, the NCAA doesn't recognize it as a sport, therefore no scholarships. He'd have to get into college on academic merit only.

It was ok when he told us he was not going to pursue it anymore. After all he was only 13.

You also run the risk at the age of 12 of turning a kid off to the game if you force him to play a position he does not want.