Good 3rd pitch for small HS part-time pitcher?

You can always try a different style of change.  If he can grip it, try a circle change.

*Edit add.

If they are hitting his FB a lot and not the curve, my guess is they are reading spin and waiting for the next pitch.  I would think you would want another pitch that doesn’t spin.  

He has a fastball and a curve. He needs a change. If he can make the knuckle curve look like it’s going to hit the bottom of the strike zone he should throw it 50% of the time. This assumes the catcher can block pitches in the dirt. It’s a nasty pitch that falls off the table if thrown properly.

The change up is your answer. No matter what the FB velo is if you can throw a change up 10-15 mph slower it will upset a hitters timing. A pitcher can be effective below bat speed. Not usually 3 times thru a lineup but almost always effective one time thru. The issue with below bat speed guys is that they have to embrace who they are. For them throwing harder often makes them easier to hit. So they have to be counterintuitive. When the going gets tough they need to throw slower. When he gets to the Varsity level he either needs to be below 80 with his FB or over 85. Anything that happens before Varsity is irrelevant so use that time to learn and grow. Experiment with CU grips until he finds one that works.

What kind of shape is his curve, big 12/6, tight 12/6, more sweeper?.  I'm betting it's large shaped and  that it does not tunnel well with his fastball and they look completely different to the hitter out of hand.  This makes it easy for hitters to just spit on the curve and sit fastball.   Some guys who have really good curves are comfortable on that side of the ball and less so pronating so they have difficulty throwing a change-up.  A cutter would work well off the fastball and may be easier for him to master, sometimes you start trying the cutter and end up with a slider or vice versa, either can work.  Another option would be a split (if his hands are big enough) which would also act as a psuedo change-up, don't always need to spread your fingers to insane distance to throw an effective one.  

I think he just needs something to help disguise or tunnel well with the fastball. In HS where 4 inches off the plate is always a strike, something that continues to move that way works very effectively.

Pitch development requires time and lots of experimentation.  It's what works for him, if you don't know where to start, take someone else explaining their pitch and change it up, experiment, change the side of the horseshoe, etc.  Ie Make it his own or not.

Having a third pitch is crucial, I've seen HS guys with 3 pitches throwing low 70's and being effective and the guy throwing mid 80's with just two get his fastball hammered.

@HSDad22 posted:

What kind of shape is his curve, big 12/6, tight 12/6, more sweeper?.  I'm betting it's large shaped and  that it does not tunnel well with his fastball and they look completely different to the hitter out of hand.  This makes it easy for hitters to just spit on the curve and sit fastball.   Some guys who have really good curves are comfortable on that side of the ball and less so pronating so they have difficulty throwing a change-up.  A cutter would work well off the fastball and may be easier for him to master, sometimes you start trying the cutter and end up with a slider or vice versa, either can work.  Another option would be a split (if his hands are big enough) which would also act as a psuedo change-up, don't always need to spread your fingers to insane distance to throw an effective one. 

I think he just needs something to help disguise or tunnel well with the fastball. In HS where 4 inches off the plate is always a strike, something that continues to move that way works very effectively.

Pitch development requires time and lots of experimentation.  It's what works for him, if you don't know where to start, take someone else explaining their pitch and change it up, experiment, change the side of the horseshoe, etc.  Ie Make it his own or not.

Having a third pitch is crucial, I've seen HS guys with 3 pitches throwing low 70's and being effective and the guy throwing mid 80's with just two get his fastball hammered.

A knuckle curve looks just like a fastball coming out of the hand. The grip causes it to have heavy rotation. Thrown properly it falls off the table like it was shot out of the air.

My son threw a knuckle curve from LL through high school. The first time he threw it an all star hitter came out of his shoes and fell down lunging at it. It’s the only time I’ve burst out laughing at a hitter. It was effective through high school. Especially against top hitters who thought he was going to bring the heat.

@adbono posted:

When he gets to the Varsity level he either needs to be below 80 with his FB or over 85.

Not trying to hijack a thread, but this is exactly what I watched this year with my 2025 son. At the HS varsity level, if you don't throw 89+ guys are better off throwing 79ish than 84ish.... I don't have the answer, nor do I even know if it's true, but it just seems like the ball moves more at the lower speed?

As far as a 3rd pitch, I absolutely agree with the change piece. If you can figure it out it's devastating to try and hit. Especially if you tunnel it well with a FB/CB combo.

The key is: All 3 pitches will end up in different locations at different times.

@ReluctantO'sFan, it’s pretty much the case anywhere there is competitive HS baseball (which eliminates a lot of small town HS teams tbh) that a 80-85 mph FB is the happy zone for a HS hitter. Average HS players in competitive districts can handle that velo easily and many hitters feast on it. Which is exactly why HS hitting stats don’t project to the better levels of college baseball. When evaluating a HS hitter you have to look at what he does vs the elite pitchers in his area. More than anything else that provides a good indication of what level of college ball he belongs in (if he belongs at any level at all).

The circle change can be a great pitch.  Also, if you want to teach the cut fastball, have your son fool around with finger pressure on that middle finger.  You can google various grips. 

@HSDad22 posted:

What kind of shape is his curve, big 12/6, tight 12/6, more sweeper?.  I'm betting it's large shaped and  that it does not tunnel well with his fastball and they look completely different to the hitter out of hand.  This makes it easy for hitters to just spit on the curve and sit fastball.   Some guys who have really good curves are comfortable on that side of the ball and less so pronating so they have difficulty throwing a change-up.  A cutter would work well off the fastball and may be easier for him to master, sometimes you start trying the cutter and end up with a slider or vice versa, either can work.  Another option would be a split (if his hands are big enough) which would also act as a psuedo change-up, don't always need to spread your fingers to insane distance to throw an effective one. 

I think he just needs something to help disguise or tunnel well with the fastball. In HS where 4 inches off the plate is always a strike, something that continues to move that way works very effectively.

Pitch development requires time and lots of experimentation.  It's what works for him, if you don't know where to start, take someone else explaining their pitch and change it up, experiment, change the side of the horseshoe, etc.  Ie Make it his own or not.

Having a third pitch is crucial, I've seen HS guys with 3 pitches throwing low 70's and being effective and the guy throwing mid 80's with just two get his fastball hammered.

Your reply definitely hit home for me. First off, his knuckle curve is relatively hard in comparison to his fastball. It is not 12/6, but is tight and is a little more slurvy. More like 11-5 or 10-4.

I don't have a number on it, but I'd guess it's only around 5-7 mph less than his FB. I do think it tunnels well with his FB, which is why he is so effective with it. Honestly, I think he could throw the knuckle curve 100% of the time for an inning to two and get a lot of batters out. He struck out the side of a HS JV team only throwing one FB last week. The problem is that the second he throws the FB, its like a BP fastball (which is why the catcher had him throw curveballs every pitch last week).

I also completely agree that he has trouble on the other side of the ball from the curve. He's always had trouble pronating with any pitch (or even on throws from the infield for that matter).

I feel like a changeup would really work well for him, but if it's a giant struggle to throw, that seems like a tough task. I don't think he'll ever have a dominant FB. For a kid who doesn't have a dominant fastball, but a really good curve, where do you go?

He does have really big hands. Bigger than mine already, and he's 5 inches shorter than me right now. So maybe split is the answer?

Anyway, thanks everyone for the replies. It's already been an interesting conversation.

@adbono posted:

@ReluctantO'sFan, it’s pretty much the case anywhere there is competitive HS baseball (which eliminates a lot of small town HS teams tbh) that a 80-85 mph FB is the happy zone for a HS hitter. Average HS players in competitive districts can handle that velo easily and many hitters feast on it. Which is exactly why HS hitting stats don’t project to the better levels of college baseball. When evaluating a HS hitter you have to look at what he does vs the elite pitchers in his area. More than anything else that provides a good indication of what level of college ball he belongs in (if he belongs at any level at all).

Yup,  Son sitting in 82-83 range this year and FB getting rocked... last year at 77 was effective.  Just got to push through it till the velocity keeps increasing.  When he plays up in the zone with that, he gets swings and misses, but unfortunately they have to chase because anything waist high is called a ball.

Similar thing happened to pitcher on team last year, sitting in that range, now sitting over 85 and very effective.

Makes getting your secondary pitches over for strikes, extremely important.

If he struggles with the circle change due to pronation, a slight variation is to throw it with a reverse Vulcan grip.  Kind of slide it off the ring finger.  Circle change tends to get more movement due to the pronation but is harder to control. IMHO.  All sorts of options on the interwebs.

The change up is a feel pitch more than any other IMO. It’s difficult to master for a lot of pitchers (especially young ones) and far too many give up on it way too soon. It’s the most important pitch in baseball and literally anyone can throw it. Everyone can’t throw 90+ but everyone can learn an effective CU. It needs to be part of every pitcher’s arsenal. Hitting is all about timing. Therefore pitching should be about upsetting a hitter’s timing. And nothing does that more effectively than a CU that looks like a FB coming out of the hand. As a player I could never master the circle change. I teach it but I was never good at throwing it. I have big hands and was able to throw the fork ball as a CU. Once I learned to command it everything changed for me. I was a 90+ guy back when that was special. But that’s all I had and I couldn’t command it. Besides learning to change speeds I had to learn to back off max effort velo to gain command. Only when I did those two things did I become an effective pitcher. Any kid that has big hands and long fingers should experiment with the fork ball/splitter. I prefer the forkball as a CU b/c it’s easy to throw (given the above criteria) and it looks like a FB until it tumbles to the bottom of the strike zone (hopefully). The splitter turns into a BP speed FB if the fingers are too much on top of the ball - which is the most common mistake I see. Best advice for any young pitcher is to keep experimenting w/ the CU until he finds one that works for him. No matter how long it takes.

Our son has been using the "fosh" changeup very successfully for several years. It's a type of splitter, with fingers split outside the two seams, but with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers all touching, and the thumb along the side of the ball. Can throw for a strike or swing and miss (he's a RHP, great pitch against lefties). Gets very good run and drop. Low spin, it just "dies." Get's a lot of weak contact with it plus swings & misses.

3 things that helped my son throw an effective circle CH this year.

1. Commit to the pitch and throw it more often

2. Long toss the circle change

3. Position the ball to throw off 2 seams and not 4.

(#3 was more of a personal thing for him. It helped him as he was having trouble with spiking the circle change when throwing off 4 seams. He seems to really like the "feel" of the 2 seams, and can spot it much better/consistent)   

change would do him well, but what does his fb do? one of my guys, at 14u was undersized and soft throwing. i taught him a sinker and had him play catch with it every day until the release felt natural. in games, he would use it as his main pitch and start it middle in and run it to the inside corner. when he got ahead, he could come back with his curve or a 4 seam above the hands. you wouldn't believe how many late swing and miss strike threes he got on his sub 70mph fastball.  they were looking for soft stuff down and in so a 4 seam up looked like 90

any 4 seam below the hands got absolutely murdered, though, lol.  there are some balls that still haven't landed, i think.

First of all-Adbono, RJM and the others are all more knowable than me and will give you good advice. And i agree 100% with developing a change-up(which has been difficult for my son).

But here's a little something different that my son experienced. He's 15 and was striking out alot of kids with his 4-seam FB until he got to the better teams. They were able to hit his 4-seam. He changed to his 2-seam, which has a little run and drop. He mixed this in with his slider. That combination allowed him to pitch a 3-inning shutout with only 1 hit(coach won't let him pitch more than 3 innings).

Is your son's FB a 4-seam? if so , it might be easy to switch to a 2 seam, and if its got some movement , he might have an effective 3rd pitch, pretty quickly.

I appreciate all of the advice. He definitely mainly throws a 4-seam fastball. He's tried to throw a two-seam, but it really doesn't move much. Again, I'm thinking it has to do with his trouble with pronation. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't try to work on that.

Sounds like most of the advice here is leading him to some type of changeup, with whatever grip he feels most comfortable and can throw the best. I'll see if he can do a little experimentation.

I'll also see if he can experiment with some type of 2-seam FB and try to get something that moves a bit. If he can make that happen, it would be very helpful to allow him to not be stuck throwing off-speed the majority of the time.

Thanks everyone.

I have a different thought...

His FB is 70 MPH.  Yeah, the change would be the obvious third pitch but right now, it's not going to be all that effective because hitters are already sitting back on "slow" since both offerings lack velo.   Instead of adding a third pitch, the best thing he can do now is focus on mastering location with his two current offerings.  It will make him more effective now and will benefit him as he progresses.  Even a slow fastball is effective if it is continuously spotted well.  A third pitch can be added when velo of the FB reaches at least a serviceable level.

PS - Immediately after I posted this, I realized I was watching an NCAA super regional softball matchup where one pitcher is mowing the opposition with lesser velo than most P's that have reached this point in the tournament.  Down, down, in.  Down, down, up.  Off speed away.  Hard drop down and in.  Rise up.  Drop down....  Location, location, location.  Work ahead.  Very few mistakes center cut.  I would bet a boatload of cash that this was a big emphasis back when she was about your son's age.