CaCO...funny you should mention that now.  My son just received his latest ACT today.  He bumped his merit money up $2k/year.    The chart below is from a D1 school near me...not his school, but close.   This chart shows merit money...has nothing to do with whether or not a kid is an athlete...but I would think that it would be a good guide as to what "good grades" would be.

 

High School GPA
	+3.75	3.50 - 3.74	3.25 - 3.49	3.00 - 3.24	2.75 - 2.99
ACT/SAT Score
30+/1330+	$6,500	$6,500	$6,500	$6,500	$3,500
29 - 28/1320 - 1250	$6,500	$6,500	$6,500	$3,500	$3,500
27 - 25/1240 - 1130	$6,500	$6,500	$3,500	$3,500	$1,500
24 - 22/1120 - 1020	$3,500	$3,500	$3,500	$1,500	$1,500
21 - 20/1010 - 940	$3,500	$3,500	$3,500	$1,500	$1,500
19 - 18/930 - 860	$1,500	$1,500	$1,500	$1,500	$1,000
17 - 16/850 - 770	$1,500	$1,500	$1,000	$1,000	$1,000

Sent you a PM/dialog

CaCO3Girl,

 

As you might expect, it is going to depend entirely on the school and how much they value a student's stats. Schools compete financially with each other for highly desirable academic candidates.  Their goal is to publish stats that are higher than last year's stats and make the school more selective and desirable.  Everything is relative (and sometimes negotiable) in our experience.

 

 

We had a college coach tell us that he might want our son to retake the sat again, I was surprised my son's SAT scores were pretty darn high, high enough to get into the school without baseball....I asked the coach why he said because every point higher I get get your son that helps me get the Shortstop I want with the lower SAT....I guess this this coach had to have an average incoming class SAT score....

 

so the way I would answer your question...good grades are relative.....if you are a "C" student then try hard to become a "B" student, if you are a "B" student try hard to become aN "A" student......

I have to agree with Fenway. Good grades for Big State U, will not be the same as lets say Stanford or an Ivy. 

You can find info on the Web. I am including a link to "THE Ohio State University" and Stanford as examples:

 

OSU

http://collegeapps.about.com/o...sion-gpa-sat-act.htm

 

Stanford

http://collegeapps.about.com/o...sion-gpa-sat-act.htm

 

I am sure you can notice the difference.

Parent of a sophomore pitcher at a DI school in CA.

1980 SAT(1310)

31ACT

Tested out on 5 AP's

The higher your grades, the lower the velocity, 60 time and bat speed accepted.

Lets face it, if your kid is a stud, they will figure a way to make it work. Will he stay eligible, who knows. Will he take the bare minimum to get by and be done and out in 3, probably.

We took tests early so we could see where he needed improvement. Once we say scores where high, we used it to his advantage.

Best advise for good players is to get good grades, period.

Funny story from son's freshman year. Team was divided into two groups in the clubhouse. Son was concerned because more on one side than the other. Coach said see smaller group over here,  thank them because they are keeping the Team GPA upfor the rest of you.

 

PS. Not trying to brag about junior scores, he worked very hard to get those. Just wanted to make a point of how important it is. If you don't throw 93 mph with movement or don't run 6.5 sixty and hit bombs you better get the best grades you can.

CaCO3Girl, as others have stated, "good grades" will depend upon a number of factors, especially since there's such a wide spectrum of schools between state and regional colleges, publics, privates, etc.

 

The lowest GPA to be accepted into a D1 program is probably 2.00, since that's the lowest GPA to be eligible as a freshman.  If anybody knows of a situation where lower than 2.00 was accepted, I'd be interested in hearing about that.

 

Former Division I compliance director, parent of former D1 pitcher, and current consultant to athletes, parents, and colleges.

I'm surprised to see a 2.0 as the lowest...I would have thought that was in the realm of unacceptable.  Let me guess the 2.0 was for a 16 year old who could throw 95+ and had 20+ Homeruns?

 

As for anything lower, I don't know about the rest of the country but my county in GA has made it almost impossible to get a D in a class.  When I was a kid 60-69 was a D, now ONLY 69 is a D, 68 and below is an F.  I have no idea why the D even still exists.

CaCO3Girl,

 

I think you'll find different levels of "unacceptable" in households, counties, colleges and the NCAA.  2.0 GPA in my house (and I'm guessing most houses) would be a one-way ticket to reduced priviledges and a possible end to a student's baseball season.

 

We could have a long conversation about grade inflation or inconsistent grading systems.  My county changed their grading system to be more competitive with other counties in the state in terms of evaluating students for admissions.  This is why standardized testing will always have a seat at the table.  On the flip side of the coin, it has become increasingly difficult for high achieving students to separate themselves.   A student on the high end has to take more and more AP classes to differentiate for admission.  This can become a challenge for an athlete who tests into a higher level (ie calculus) in college....it is nice to have some GPA boosters freshmen year to start off with.

 

I think grade inflation has gotten out of hand, and really forces admissions officers to look elsewhere to determine a potential student's true academic strength.

 

In my son's case, he is an advanced math student.  He started taking high school honors credit math classes in 7th grade. His class load as a freshman included several honors and one AP course.  His weighted GPA at the end of the year was 4.3 . Now, that may sound impressive on the surface - but if you can believe this - he was just barely in the top 25% of his class of 600.  Yes, it's a pretty good school - but c'mon, 4.3 barely cracks the top 25?

 

Of course my son is perplexed by the fact that he has friends taking "Honors" algebra 1 as sophomores. How does one get "honors" credit when they are actually a year behind schedule?

Rob T,

   I can sympathize - our 2015 1B/OF is a top student, weighted GPA about 3.8+ and just got his 1st ACT test scores back w/composite of 31.  Quite respectable, yet even with a class average of 93+/100, he's 8th of 34 students in his school. The school is an excellent private school, but we dont even bother using his estimated class rank for an AI calculator because it would skewer it. Hopefully if he applies Ivy, they wont either...we figure GPA is a more standard yardstick to use, with the SAT or ACT scores (as Fenway pointed out) as a benchmark for the colleges to use, to check against grade inflation. Where son is, they have to work to earn every grade they get - As it should be.

At my kids school the "regular" level classes are all plus 1 on the grading scale.  Honors are plus 2 and AP plus 3.  Makes no sense.  Reminds me of the amplifier from Spinal Tap that goes to 11. 

 

 

I have read recently that the class rank has been largely removed fromt he AI calculation for high academic shools, for good reason (as stated above).  If you Google the topic,  you will likely find the same articles/publications that I did.

Though some speculate that standardized testing like the SAT/ACT are somehow culturally biased (I'm not commenting one way or the other), all of these examples are suggestive of the difficulty from a college admissions office standpoint of how to admit the right group of kids and not deny admission to someone deserving.

 

As an example, my kids are fortunate to attend a very highly regarded public high school.  The next town over has a school that does not enjoy a good academic reputation.  In my son's junior year, a student from the neighboring town transferred to our school because his mom relocated.  The boy had been honor roll every quarter at his old high school.  He was nearly ineligible to play basketball when the season started due to his grades at our high school - and it wasn't a lack of effort.  He had tutors, was meeting with his teachers and with guidance, etc.  He's a good kid, and he got it together, but there was a few weeks as the season was starting that they weren't sure if he was going to be able to play.  Just shows the wide grade marking discrepancy in a 15 minute radius.

9and7, it's a huge and complex issue. My kids are at two different schools in the same district, and one issue we have noticed is that my 2017's school, which has a rep as a really tough school that offers a lot of AP courses, isn't as widely known by good colleges as my 2015's school, which is an IB school. We're trying to get 2017's school to work on that, but there is significant institutional inertia on such things.  2015 and I recent attended a Duke U event, and the admissions guy went on and on about how many thousands of schools there are in the US and how difficult it is to compare apples from one school to oranges in another. He mentioned one school in TX that grades on a 10 point scale, and a "top" CA prep school that doesn't have  a single AP course.  He did mention IB and AP repeatedly, and I got the impression that since IB and AP tests are done outside of the school, those are very highly regarded, not just for rigor, but for independent grading.  The rigor thing is such a b*tch. Taking AP Chem as a soph, along with a bunch of honors courses, almost ground my 2015 into the ground.  My kids' middle school science teacher, who's a great guy and hates the "race to nowhere" in HS curriculums, recommends taking AC chem followed the next year by AP chem.  Our 2017 may do that. 

I think class rank is a silly and meaningless number.  It can be so skewed based on the school and based on a particular class.  It's like a kid who says I'm the number one hitter on my team and bats .225 versus a team loaded with studs where the 6th best hitter hits .380.  Rank is really irrelevant to whether the kid can hit, just like class rank really is irrelevant to whether or not a kid can cut it at a particular university.

Or the HS team that has 8 kids hitting .375 or better.....but they are 4-18....lol.  We had a team in our league last year that did that.  4 or 5 kids hitting .400 or over, yet their overall record was below .500 and they averaged less than 3 runs/game.  Their coach was questioned at the league meeting about the stats...and somehow managed to say with a straight face that "we lost because of errors".  Errors don't prevent you from scoring runs...especially with 5 kids hitting .400+ 

Agreed.  Rigor really is a b*tch for both the student and parent.  It is a fine line. 

 

JMO.... I think this is where a parent can really help an inspired student who may (or may not) be getting ahead of themselves.   The parent knows the kid's capabilities and work habits.  High academic schools are looking for students who excel at the top level classes, but I think it has to be carefully "managed" by the parents.  Every kid is different, and my two oldest son's took different paths in high school (they both went to the same magnet high school and major in the college) and they were able to challenge themselves without flaming out in high school.  There is no doubt in my mind that junior year is the key for both academics and athletics and pacing your baseball player is so important.  Too many APs will bury them, and they have no shot at the high academic schools.  A few APs can still keep the recruit in the conversation with a college baseball coach if the recruit can play.  Again, it is a fine line. and again it is JMO.

So Fenway....are AP classes required in your opinion?

 

This confuses me, having just looked at the admission site for the closest college and they specifically said they looked at an unweighted GPA.  So what's the point in taking the AP classes? I mean if AP bio is harder than regular bio and a B is a B then why go for the harder class?

These top schools are well aware of grade inflation.  Taking AP courses is an indication that the student is challenging themself, has a strong will to learn and will not shy aware from rigorous schedule.  That is why APs are needed.

Sorry, if I confused you.   Yes, rigor is important and needed for admission at top schools with low admission rates.   What I was trying to suggest is challenge your son with AP classes, but don't let them overwhelm themselves with too many AP classes.  This is one of those cases where being conservative may help for a recruited athlete to one of these schools.  JMO.

Totally agree with Fenway (because...well...he is always right!).  BucsFan son got the message a little too loudly from certain schools and originally signed up for 5 AP courses this year.  I talked him down to 4 and told him it was just fine to take the "easier" course in one subject.  Well, it is not even Oct. and he is thanking me already.  We actually had time to sit and together watch our "Bucs" last night.

I think 2-3 per year is plenty.  The thing that really got his attention was when I said, "Do you really want to have to study for 5 AP exams during the middle of HS baseball season?"

Agree with Fenway.  But keep in mind -- at least from what I have seen, recruited D1 athletes are not held to the same standards, even at many highly selective schools.  For example, CAL has been verballing sophomores right and left the past couple years. I doubt any of these kids have taken any AP courses beforehand.

 

Admission people at top schools will tell you that students should take the most challenging courses available at their schools. But as a parent, you have to know how much is too much, and how to balance.  Good example,my 2015 has two teammates who were admitted to Ivies last year who had lesser rigor than him.  But the lessor rigor allowed them to be very involved with volunteer work, leadership, extracurricular, and athletics  -- all the personal stuff they want to see.

For the overwhelming majority of schools, the number of AP classes, or even the rigor of the HS curriculum is not a factor in recruiting or acceptance. For the Ivy League and NESCAC both are important - and maybe some schools in the Patriot.

 

Even at those few schools, once the academic bar is cleared, there is no extra credit for clearing the bar by a wide margin. In other words, being a better student does not mean that the kid can be a lesser player. (Although a coach may only be able to gain admittance for only one "lesser" student.)

 

Yes, the APs for many are a race to nowhere; for others it's the only way to hold a student's attention (they'd be bored with regular classes). Ironically, in the few schools which essentially require a kid to take the most rigorous classes to gain admission, most don't allow you to cash in your APs for credit (it does allow for placement immediately in more advanced classes); therefore, no lightened class load or even the chance to graduate early.

 

My S actually took an extremely light HS senior year - he wanted to focus totally on baseball. His big push academically occurred during his soph and junior years.

 

So, unless a kid is hoping for those few schools (and no athletic money at those schools; heck, most of those schools don't even give merit money), IMO, the student athlete should only take on what he is comfortable doing. 

 

As for ECs, my S had none - just the bare minimum of what the HS required to graduate. His EC was baseball. I do not believe athletes need to be the well-rounded student the regular admits need to be. (My D, a regular admit, ran the "required" insane gauntlet of APs, ECs, science fairs, volunteer work, summer jobs, etc.) 

 

 

Gosh, Goosegg, I don't know what you're basing your opinion on, or what types of schools you're talking about. But if you're including non-recruited athletes in stating that AP's do not count, I disagree.   I see you're in CA, so check out the data below. It's from the UCLA freshman profile for 2013 here: http://www.admissions.ucla.edu..._fr/Frosh_Prof13.htm

High School Course Work

Honors Level Semesters- Grades 10-12

UC-approved honors courses can include AP, IB, school-based honors, and transferable college courses.

# of semesters	# of applicants	% of all applicants	# of admits	admit rate	% of all admits	# enrolled	enroll rate	% of all enrolled
above 19	18,732	28.24%	8,113	43.31%	59.06%	2,353	29.00%	47.13%
16 - 19	12,360	18.63%	2,747	22.22%	20.00%	1,182	43.03%	23.67%
12 - 15	13,049	19.67%	1,676	12.84%	12.20%	806	48.09%	16.14%
8 - 11	10,560	15.92%	714	6.76%	5.20%	391	54.76%	7.83%
below 8	11,631	17.53%	488	4.20%	3.55%	261	53.48%	5.23%

 

... kind of hard to read the table, so here's the gist:  Applicants with 19+ semesters of "higher" course work were had an admit rate of 43%.  Those with below 8 had an admit rate of 4.2%.

Here are a few reasons why  you want a few AP courses; it does show that you can handle a tougher rigor & still maintain both baseball and college  level courses ( you may be less of an ACADEMIC RISK of failing once on the team)  and if you test out of that class, your freshman year load is lighter ( again potential for less of an  Academic Risk ) and if you do not test out, the college level class is easier as you have already assimilated  the data & knowledge in High School. At some point you have to put in the time & effort for leaning the data, so High School where you already know the people & the drill, or take it on as another "new" in college. Son is @ D1, as freshman in Engineering,  and states course  content is easy in some, manageable in others biggest challenge is Time!  Yesterday he left dorm room @ 6am  & returned @ 11:45pm.

JCG.

 

Comparing students who went through the regular admit process with athlete is comparing apples to palm trees. If you can post the same chart of recruited athletes, that would be relevant.

 

athletes are evaluated differently when compared to regular admits. My opinions go only to recruited athletes. All others need to run the crazy gauntlet.

Goosegg, My bad then; I thought you were making a general statement about admissions.  I don't have that data, and I'm sure it varies widely by conference, school, and sport.  But I will say this -- if you (in the general sense) know your kid is a can't miss, will never get injured D1 prospect, then no APs sounds like a good strategy. But if there's any chance that won't happen and the kid still wants to go to UCLA and not Cal State Whatever, then taking some AP courses is probably a good idea.

Momof2015,

 

Your son's high school's profile is much more important than his rank in class when it comes to admissions at elite academic colleges.Congrats to your son on the 31 ACT score.I would encourage him to take the test one more time.If he can raise his score to 32 or 33 he will qualify for EVERY school in the country

I agree with that 100%. I just don't think a kid should be buried unless the purpose is well understood by him and the family.

 

At S and Ds college, they discovered that the APs were pale, poor versions of the actual material taught in a college environment. This was especially true in the science and math areas - they found that there were huge gaps in key areas. (Both took 8+ APs and scored fives on all.)

 

One problem with APs is that HS teachers are called upon to teach a college level class; some can, most can't to the depth that the comparable college class is taught. And, in the race to keep high academic hopes alive for regular admits, if a student doesn't take the most rigorous course load his HS teaches, his chances (as a regular admit) sink from near zero anyway, to zero.

 

For regular admits, the AP, IB, testing, volunteer work, ECS, leadership positions, music lessons, etc., has become an out of control wild fire. I have no suggestions to fix it; my kids are done with the HS insanity.

My kid has just started HS.  It certainly a different animal then when I went.  My take is that he will take the advanced and AP classes which I feel are relevant to his future.  The rest can be basic stuff.  He's good with math and science, so he'll choose those over say English.   

 

But here is a question.  Did they change the ACT.  Back in my day, if my feeble memory serves me, if you took it more than once they averaged the scores.  So it didn't help unless you really bombed the first time.  Sounds like today they take the best score?  Last score? 

Golfman25,

 

They do take the best composite score.Also,some schools will "superscore" your ACT.This means a college will select a student’s highest subscores from each of the four categories and create what could be a more impressive superscore.

To answer your question, Golfman25, about the ACT, the most selective schools require an applicant to submit ALL scores of any given tests.  They do not allow you to choose.  Separate scores of the same test are never averaged together.  Some schools will do what is known as "Super Score" which means that they will take your best scores from each section, even if they occurred on different test dates, to make your best score.  This helps a college's class profiles as well.  

 

I would also advise you to consider what your son thinks is relevant as well.  In watching my older son go through high school (non-athlete), it's not what his father thought relevant that fed his soul.  Just something to think about.

 

Yes, there is always the chance that the school that your son ends up at won't accept any AP credit, but having taken the class will set him apart from those who have not.  I really worry about families who do not consider education first and foremost in decision making for their children.  Please don't consider only what is good enough to get him/her looked at as an athlete.  Circumstances change and teenagers change and grow in different directions.  I tell my kids that it is my responsibility to prepare them for any eventuality.  Then they are free to choose their path.

Oldest son is very bright, tested out all 5's on 11 AP(chem, bio, Latin, calc,etc) and attends the best UC in his field. He was credited for all his AP's which saved him almost a year. 

Younger son tested out on 5 AP's which has saved him almost a full semester. He is at a Cal State whatever by the way.

Both were lucky enough to go to one of the top ranked high schools in the the nation, because they offer many AP classes. Why would you not want your child to take classes that help to prepare them for college. As most old timers on here will tell you, baseball will end for everyone at some point and then real life begins. How many dumb athletes do you see today who can't even speak correctly.

Take the hardest classes, get the best grades and your baseball opportunities will increase. 

How important are grades? I can only go on my own personal exp.

 

I have a 2014 with an ACT of 21 and a GPA of 3.1

He was recruited by many state D1's and selected a nationally ranked JUCO to get good competition , full ride and playing time.  He's 6'5 throws 90 and was ranked 6th in state.

 

I also have a 2016 , ACT 34... 4.3 GPA, 8 AP's and is being watched by G'town, Williams , Amherst, William and Mary, Emory and Washington U....  this one is 6'3 throws 86 and is not even ranked to my knowledge.....

 

 

 

 

I have a 2015 committed to a Mid D1 Private school. he's got an unweight 4.0 and he got a 28 on ACT and 1190 on math/reading on SAT. He is Dual enrolled at our community college while being home schooled. Between his baseball money and merit money it allowed him the ability to accept the offer. There is a possibility of more merit money depending how he scores in his classes in dual enrollment. Grades are very important.

Several thoughts....

Check college websites for what AP classes may count for credit (or exemption) and what scores are needed.  Both my sons took several AP classes, made great grades in the class but neither studied (enough) for the exams, and therefore didn't get scores that would count for college credit.  Personally, I didn't care, and especially didn't want my athlete starting out as a Freshman taking Organic Chemistry and second year Calculus at a high academic school.   However, taking dual-enrollment classes in high school in conjunction with the local community college for college level English classes did the trick.  Got college credit without the additional testing.

 

There was chat on this site I believe several years ago about a very high academic west coast school that "encouraged" their athletes to not do well on the freshman placement tests so that they would not have to take the higher level classes right off the bat.  Sure, it is nice to start college with several credits under your belt, but not everyone wants to go in as a sophomore taking upper level courses.  There are exceptions and I do know a baseball player who started college with enough credits so that he could graduate in 3 years, which came in mighty handy when he was drafted after Junior year with a degree in hand.  But, sometimes it is nice to just be a Freshman and study with other freshmen.  

 

Keewartson's college coach checked in  several times while he was in high school about their foreign language requirement (4 years of one language).  Again, check the college websites to find out if and what the requirements are and get that out of the way in high school.  Unless foreign languages are your son's gift, it can be a real pain to take at the college level.  

 

Even if your son is a stud, I think coaches want to see well rounded kids.  Good (not perfect) grades, with ECs and volunteer work, plus baseball makes a very well rounded person that coaches and admission folks want.

 

Good grades will give your son more options. 

What is considered "good" will depend on the school.

To answer the OPs questions....

 

I am a parent and the travel team son played on required hs transcripts to play for the team.  They wanted to make sure all their players were college eligible, at some level. They routinely gave out summaries of all their players to coaches that attended showcases or tournaments.  The college that son verbally committed to the summer before Junior year asked for a hs transcript for a pre-read that summer.  He had not taken the SAT yet but had the PSAT score.

 

My son used baseball to attend a school he may not have gotten into otherwise.

In my experience, when someone says they have "good grades," it's usually a case of damning with faint praise. 

 

I've had people who tell me their sons have "good grades" when they have a 3.2 GPA -- but they're at a school where they give out extra points like candy, so a 3.2 is something like the 40th percentile.  If any of my kids had brought home "good grades" like those, there would've been consequences.  So I guess you could say what's good is in the eye of the beholder.

 

The NCAA has eligibility standards.  For D1, the higher your grades are, the lower the SAT's you can get away with.  The lower your grades, the higher your SAT's have to be to offset.  To be recruited, obviously you have to be at least eligible.  If you are eligible and talented, there are schools that will take you.  If you're a borderline case, many schools will steer clear, knowing that you may be eligible with the NCAA but you won't get through admissions, or perhaps fearing that even if you get in, you won't have what it takes to stay in school once you get there.

 

When I say "good grades," I use it to mean that a player has not eliminated himself from consideration at the greater majority of schools.  We have seen kids in the 60-70th percentile get in to very high academic schools because the baseball coach wanted them.  So I would not use "good grades" for anyone below that level.  But that's just me, not a common usage of the term.

 

We have had players whose parents assured us their sons had "good grades," only to find that when a particular school got interested in them, the coach went to admissions and found out he couldn't get the player in.  The upshot of this is that we now require players to produce their transcripts to us so we can get accurate information and not ambiguous statements.  (Keewart's son was among the first subjected to that requirement.)  It prevents a ton of problems.  So far we haven't had it keep anyone from getting recruited.  To the contrary, it helps, because it allows us to get them focused on the best target schools for them from the outset, instead of having someone waste time thinking they're going to Duke or Stanford when that's not in the cards.  Conversely, when someone is a good fit for Duke or Stanford, there are schools they shouldn't be looking at as well.