As an example, Florida State prior to the USD in 2006-07 played 2 weekday games of their first 24.
So far in 2009, they played 6 weekday games of their first 14 games.
No more parading 3 guys out every weekend. But they still get to sleep in their own beds while the northern players sleep on buses. Advantage South!
quote:justbb quote:
I will grant you that our son attended a top-notch academic institution. But never, NEVER did I see any relaxing of academic requirements nor incentive or framework to do anything other than help the student athlete at his school.
jbb- IMO, using your sons school is not fair because it is in a class of it's own with standards that very very few can meet. It's like the old playboy poll rating drinking colleges. They ranked them, and said U of WI was not included in the poll because they don't compare professionals with amatures
quote:I see too much "whining" today about what others have that we cannot. In some weird way, our current financial crisis was partially created by people trying to have what others have...and seeing attaining that as "happiness." Lots of kids play hockey here...but the reality is they probably don't have much of a chance competing with Northerners or Canadians for college scholarships except for a select few. I don't hear them whining about it...or trying to make you conform to their playing conditions/schedule/weather so they get a "fair" shot. Instead some leave home in HS to give it their shot back East/North. If you tell me they are whining, they would be very wrong IMO.
This where I feel a "supply and demand" situation applies, and the unfairness resides. It's not about the programs but rather the players.
Can you admit that at least 50% of Northern D1 starters could fill roster spots on Southern teams?
Can you admit that Southern programs if they had a choice between 2 equal players would not take the "home-boy"?
If yes to both, where do those good players, who were rejected because of where their "home" is go?
IMHO, they are forced to stay North because there are not enough Southern slots avaiable. So now those same Southern schools want to have it there way. Doesn't that kind of screw those players over a second time? If they are going to compete against each other wht not at least balance something that is a constant, like dates?
If that makes any sense.
quote:OS8 quote:
But they still get to sleep in their own beds while the northern players sleep on buses. Advantage South!
You're going to get pro-n-cons with every situation. IMHO, the advantages were huge before, now they're be a bit closer. Sit back and enjoy and use to your advantage for a small win. Unless this global warming thing speeds up, some things will remain the same.
quote:Can you admit that at least 50% of Northern D1 starters could fill roster spots on Southern teams?
I don't know? My gut would tell me no...many Northern D1-quality players head south/west to begin with and I don't think THIS rule (schedule change) will change that...but I really don't know.
quote:Can you admit that Southern programs if they had a choice between 2 equal players would not take the "home-boy"?
Yes...in part because they're more likely to see them play in HS, be more familiar with them.
quote:...where do those good players, who were rejected because of where their "home" is go?
We have that problem out West too...too many "good" players for the number of slots. Many go to JCs...then the ones that pan out go onto 4-year schools. If you had the extensive JC system we have, I would bet that would have more impact than any schedule change.
quote:Doesn't that kind of screw those players over a second time? If they are going to compete against each other why not at least balance something that is a constant, like dates?
Life $ucks sometimes. Growing up in California with your dad a great NHL player...but you can't get the competition you need to develop (yes, I know one of those kids), growing up in Ohio yet dreaming of playing football at USC or UCLA or Florida, growing up in Florida yet dreaming of hunting moose (oops, sorry Bullwinkle!), blowing your elbow out, getting smacked in the face with a line drive. It just $ucks.
I don't sit around and figure out how to make others pay for my "less than optimal" situation.
quote:Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dad04:
Baseball will continue to be dominated by warm weather states[QUOTE]
FSU lost twice to BC.
LSU lost twice to Illinois.
UM lost to Rutgers and Rhode Island
When I say dominate, I mean in June.
Here are the last 30 winners and runners up in Omaha. Shortening the season a week is not going to lower the running median 30-year average temperature of the winning schools climate 1 degree. There is more to it than that.
YEAR WINNER RUNNER-UP
2008 Fresno State Georgia
2007 Oregon State North Carolina
2006 Oregon State North Carolina
2005 Texas Florida
2004 Cal St Fullerton Texas
2003 Rice Stanford
2002 Texas South Carolina
2001 Miami (Fla.) Stanford
2000 LSU Stanford
1999 Miami (Fla.) Florida St.
1998 USC Arizona St.
1997 LSU Alabama
1996 LSU Miami
1995 CS Fullerton USC
1994 Oklahoma Georgia Tech
1993 LSU Wichita St.
1992 Pepperdine CS Fullerton
1991 LSU Wichita St.
1990 Georgia Oklahoma St.
1989 Wichita St. Texas
1988 Stanford Arizona St.
1987 Stanford Oklahoma St.
1986 Arizona Florida St.
1985 Miami (Fla.) Texas
1984 CS Fullerton Texas
1983 Texas Alabama
1982 Miami (Fla.) Wichita St.
1981 Arizona St. Oklahoma St.
1980 Arizona Hawaii
1979 CS Fullerton Arkansas
quote:quote:
Can you admit that at least 50% of Northern D1 starters could fill roster spots on Southern teams?
Justbb replyI don't know? My gut would tell me no...
That attitude surprises me JBB. I didn't think that you had such a low opinion of Northern baseball. So most Northern players would not even make Southern/Western teams
quote:
Can you admit that Southern programs if they had a choice between 2 equal players would not take the "home-boy"?
Justbb replyYes...in part because they're more likely to see them play in HS, be more familiar with them.
So the devils advocate says maybe the Southern coaches are partially to blame because they refuse to go outside their box.
quote:...where do those good players, who were rejected because of where their "home" is go?
Justbb replyIf you had the extensive JC system we have, I would bet that would have more impact than any schedule change.
Same problem would exist, Northern players are still going to be overlooked because of where their from IMO. The Southern schools are still going to take the "home-boy"
quote:quote:
Doesn't that kind of screw those players over a second time? If they are going to compete against each other why not at least balance something that is a constant, like dates?
Justbb replyLife $ucks sometimes.
So we should accept the status quo? I thought last Nov 4, because of "issues" it was a time for change. Is this really that bad?
quote:Justbb replyGrowing up in California with your dad a great NHL player...but you can't get the competition you need to develop (yes, I know one of those kids)
Without sounding hipocritical, a single casualty cannot be compared mass casualties.
quote:Justbb reply growing up in Ohio yet dreaming of playing football at USC or UCLA or Florida,
Why go there there when you have the Big 10?
quote:Justbb replyI don't sit around and figure out how to make others pay for my "less than optimal" situation.
Is the schedule change that big of a deal or do the Southern/Western programs just not like to other to use a fork when eating their pie. Since Title IX the NCAA has been on an "equity" tear. I know that with our personal situation many of the Southern schools my son wanted to go to did not want anything to do with him, and he was worthy. In reply to the "life $ucks" thought, I agree. But sometimes you have to deal with what you're dealt with and what is voted on and not whine about it. As a result of the rule change I feel that many programs that will not be affected when looking at the big picture are crying because they didn't get their way and that is the real issue.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
I don't sit around and figure out how to make others pay for my "less than optimal" situation.
C'mon JBB, now you're going to play persecution complex?
In any situation, where one side has an advantage over another, one of three things happen to try and institute greater fairness.
1. The advantaged give up something
2. The disadvantaged are given something
3. A combination of the two.
In this case it would seem that #1 is more applicable than the others, but to say people schemed to make that group pay, is folly. We're straying back towards the absurd with characterizations like that.
Ya know, the "life $ucks, deal with it" argument never comes from the disadvantaged side...why do you suppose that is? Maybe because people don't like having their advantages messed with?
This week, South Carolina played 6 games in 7 days. One was a makeup game and one other was a game that was never on the schedule against an opponent they hadn't planned on playing this year. Rainouts cancelled a couple of games and USC crammed these into their schedule, to H_ell with academics, we need wins and RPI strength. You want to know the funny thing, there's all this NCAA bashing going on about the condensed schedule on teams message boards, yet no one takes coaches or administrators to task when situations like this truly do put academics at risk. They didn't have to play those games. They didn't have to risk the academic well being of those players. But they did. Where are all the well intentioned people who are just looking out for the academics of these student athletes now? Well, they're probably on gametracker, following their team. We'll hear from them when some top ranked team gets bumped off because that evil NCAA forced everyone into a condensed season and now Whatsamatta U dropped two games this week because we had to go so deep into our pen for starters because we played 6 games in 7 days. No Fair, No Fair, No Fair. Yeah, right.
Thats an interesting way to interpret some of my responses. Didn't know you had such a low opinion of me? Oh well.
Or maybe a good chunk of this conversation is a representation of conversation by internet? You think I'm whining? Not sure why...I really don't think I have anything to whine about. No kid in college ball right now. School he went too is about as bullet proof to these issues as any.
I think its an unwise rule change. I think the NCAA acted in the interest of $$ and the self-interest of a handful of NE/MW schools rather than the student. I believe I'd have the same view if I still lived in Ohio...but I guess one never knows for sure - huh? Would you have the same view if you lived in FL or CA? (No need to answer).
This is me expressing an opinion...not Southern/Western programs. For me, it has nothing to do with "sharing." Again, a) I don't think it will make one bit of a difference in who has the most success in college baseball (a few wins here and there? sure. tournament success? I doubt it...not on average) and b) as a parent, I think it is a change that is not good for student athletes.
Can't leave this one alone though...
Come on...you telling me that your average 16-year old HS boy in Ohio isn't watching the Rose Bowl and thinkin' he'd rather be on the USC sidelines than the OSU sidelines (for more reasons than football...see O44's comments about UCLA!). I know I sure did.
Anyways...gotta run to younger son's HS game in the warm California sun. I'm out on this one...you guys get the last word.
Have a good weekend!
Or maybe a good chunk of this conversation is a representation of conversation by internet? You think I'm whining? Not sure why...I really don't think I have anything to whine about. No kid in college ball right now. School he went too is about as bullet proof to these issues as any.
I think its an unwise rule change. I think the NCAA acted in the interest of $$ and the self-interest of a handful of NE/MW schools rather than the student. I believe I'd have the same view if I still lived in Ohio...but I guess one never knows for sure - huh? Would you have the same view if you lived in FL or CA? (No need to answer).
quote:Is the schedule change that big of a deal or do the Southern/Western programs just not like to share a fork when eating their pie.
This is me expressing an opinion...not Southern/Western programs. For me, it has nothing to do with "sharing." Again, a) I don't think it will make one bit of a difference in who has the most success in college baseball (a few wins here and there? sure. tournament success? I doubt it...not on average) and b) as a parent, I think it is a change that is not good for student athletes.
Can't leave this one alone though...
quote:Why go there there when you have the Big 10?
Come on...you telling me that your average 16-year old HS boy in Ohio isn't watching the Rose Bowl and thinkin' he'd rather be on the USC sidelines than the OSU sidelines (for more reasons than football...see O44's comments about UCLA!). I know I sure did.
Anyways...gotta run to younger son's HS game in the warm California sun. I'm out on this one...you guys get the last word.
Have a good weekend!
quote:Ya know, the "life $ucks, deal with it" argument never comes from the disadvantaged side...
Sorry...one last thing. You really don't know a f-reak-in thing about me nor my family do ya? So far out of context with regards to us it is flat out insulting. Amazing.
Have a good day.
Whether or not the condensed schedule was a good idea or not is a train that left the station a long time ago...
I can see both sides on this one but it does not change the fact that things have changed. In my view, utilitarian principles are the best way to govern in a democracy and that means trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of individuals.
What they (NCAA) did was make things worse for a much greater number of student-athletes. The solution in my view was to go play in the south or west if those things bothered you (i.e., home field advantage, travel, condensed schedule). I felt it was a paramount decision and much sacrifice was put into making it happen. I felt by making those sacrifices, one could justify the advantages. Every player has the same opportunities for those spots in the south and the west imho. Some of the top southern schools recruit heavily in the north btw so it is about talent and not "home-boyism" imho.
I agree with justbb on another point. Yes there are star players in the north and even star teams occasionally like Michigan winning Vanderbilt's regional two years ago. The exception does not make the rule however. The general rule is the better players are in the south and the west. I see nothing wrong with asking kids to compete for those positions and receive the benefits that are earned therewith.
I can see both sides on this one but it does not change the fact that things have changed. In my view, utilitarian principles are the best way to govern in a democracy and that means trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of individuals.
What they (NCAA) did was make things worse for a much greater number of student-athletes. The solution in my view was to go play in the south or west if those things bothered you (i.e., home field advantage, travel, condensed schedule). I felt it was a paramount decision and much sacrifice was put into making it happen. I felt by making those sacrifices, one could justify the advantages. Every player has the same opportunities for those spots in the south and the west imho. Some of the top southern schools recruit heavily in the north btw so it is about talent and not "home-boyism" imho.
I agree with justbb on another point. Yes there are star players in the north and even star teams occasionally like Michigan winning Vanderbilt's regional two years ago. The exception does not make the rule however. The general rule is the better players are in the south and the west. I see nothing wrong with asking kids to compete for those positions and receive the benefits that are earned therewith.
quote:"home-boyism"
CD, I don't know, but that word almost sounds "illegal".
I am not aware that southern/western schools were complaining about the date changes.
We were asked a question and JBB gave his opinion. I am not just agreeing with him because he is my friend, but because he has a VALID point, the new schedule does not favor ANY STUDENT athlete, no matter where you attend. Standford is on the quarter system, year after year playing into the tournie long after others are done for weeks, yet manage to pull it off over and over, how difficult is that! So I don't think it bothers them or the parents one bit.
Any player suffering an injury will find himself further and further behind, because he is lacking game experience. When he enters into a game now his teammates may be 4-6 games or more ahead of him with the new schedule while in the past it may have been fewer. Anyone ever having an injured player knows how you can fall behind when others are playing everyday. Good point JBB.
This hurts everyone, what about the player that normally would have a year (redshirt) to develop (physically and emotionally) while practicing with the team? With the need being so high, chances are your chance to attend a program and retain one year eligibility is lost. That player may now be overlooked, especially in the larger programs where you had a chance to develop. There's not much chance of that with the compressed schedule and 35 man roster max.
It's not good for pitchers, those that wish to play and showcase in summer will might have to give it up due to larger workload, you cannot throw 80,90,100 innings and play summer ball without it taking it's toll sometime. Those in post season especially will be affected, however, it does mean more summer opportunities for others. I guess when one door closes for one it opens one for another.
As far as parity, that may be for the first few weeks until everyone finds their rythm and things warm up, those teams that dominated will still dominate, no matter where they are located, that will never change because of their depth and better coaching(BTW, smaller teams will always win mid week games because they throw their better guys against the larger teams), the long season catches up with you, pitching gets you in the tournie field and you can't with tired or hurt pitchers.
Great posts OB44!
JMO.
We were asked a question and JBB gave his opinion. I am not just agreeing with him because he is my friend, but because he has a VALID point, the new schedule does not favor ANY STUDENT athlete, no matter where you attend. Standford is on the quarter system, year after year playing into the tournie long after others are done for weeks, yet manage to pull it off over and over, how difficult is that! So I don't think it bothers them or the parents one bit.
Any player suffering an injury will find himself further and further behind, because he is lacking game experience. When he enters into a game now his teammates may be 4-6 games or more ahead of him with the new schedule while in the past it may have been fewer. Anyone ever having an injured player knows how you can fall behind when others are playing everyday. Good point JBB.
This hurts everyone, what about the player that normally would have a year (redshirt) to develop (physically and emotionally) while practicing with the team? With the need being so high, chances are your chance to attend a program and retain one year eligibility is lost. That player may now be overlooked, especially in the larger programs where you had a chance to develop. There's not much chance of that with the compressed schedule and 35 man roster max.
It's not good for pitchers, those that wish to play and showcase in summer will might have to give it up due to larger workload, you cannot throw 80,90,100 innings and play summer ball without it taking it's toll sometime. Those in post season especially will be affected, however, it does mean more summer opportunities for others. I guess when one door closes for one it opens one for another.
As far as parity, that may be for the first few weeks until everyone finds their rythm and things warm up, those teams that dominated will still dominate, no matter where they are located, that will never change because of their depth and better coaching(BTW, smaller teams will always win mid week games because they throw their better guys against the larger teams), the long season catches up with you, pitching gets you in the tournie field and you can't with tired or hurt pitchers.
Great posts OB44!
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:Ya know, the "life $ucks, deal with it" argument never comes from the disadvantaged side...
Sorry...one last thing. You really don't know a f-reak-in thing about me nor my family do ya? So far out of context with regards to us it is flat out insulting. Amazing.
Have a good day.
WHOA NELLIE. You are wrong, I know one f-reak-in thing, actually two.
1. You took the side of this argument of the advantaged.
2. You were the one that brought the, "life $ucks" phrase into the argument
quote:originally posted by justbaseball: Life $ucks sometimes.
So now you spout some righteous indignation about out of context, know nothing, and you're insulted?
Here, let me put a bow on that thought, and go place it in the special garbage can, where the dog poop goes.
I didn’t want to weigh in here, but just can’t ignore a good brawl!
Here is my opinion…
There is no doubt that “more” good baseball players come from the south and the west.
The very best baseball players from the south or the west tend to stay there to attend college.
The very best baseball players (for the most part) from the north, want to attend colleges in the south or the west.
I like one thing about Iowa… Actually more than one, but what I’m talking about is the fact that Iowa happens to be the average state in so many ways. You know… right around #25 in most everything. Of course, it would be considered a northern state.
Well, because of what we do, we like to think we know who most of the best players in the country are. For sure, we know who the best players in Iowa are. Over the past 16 years just about every player who has been drafted or gone on to play DI baseball has been involved in our stuff. That includes the very best players of course.
Here is what we have seen… Ryan Sweeney was drafted and signed, but first he signed with San Diego State. Jeff Clement went to Southern Cal and became an All American and first round pick. Zach Von Tersch went to Georgia Tech, Jeremy Hellickson was drafted and signed, but had committed to LSU. Zach Dillon went to Baylor, a couple others signed with Oregon State. There are many more examples just like those. Those that stayed north went to Nebraska, Wichita State, Notre Dame and top northern programs. Yes, a few stayed in the state. In all that time I can’t remember a single player coming to the U of Iowa from Texas, California, Florida, Georgia, Arizona or any other warm weather climate.
So is that unfair? If so… How do you change that?
The thing that is the most unfair is the weather. Sure there are Big League clubs in the cold weather states. They go to Florida or Arizona for spring training. Maybe a rule that would allow northern colleges to spend two months down south for spring training would help. Of course, that is probably impossible. Until something like that happens, it will always be unfair. The real question… How do we change the climate? Global Warming doesn’t seem to be working.
Besides there are a few northern schools that are very good. Nebraska, Michigan, St Johns, Notre Dame and others have enjoyed some good success. Some would call places like Wichita State, Louisville and Kentucky northern schools, too.
None of this hurts baseball, it just means the southern and western schools have an advantage and that is obvious every year in Omaha. Whether that is unfair depends on how you look at it. Personally I just think it’s the way things are. The northern schools will still produce great players and big league stars, like always. The southern and western schools will produce more of them and continue winning national championships because they have “more” of the top players. Not all of them… Just more of them! The playing field is even IMO, every player has a chance to overcome the odds and succeed.
You know… There are some good reasons why Latin America produces so many great baseball players compared to places like Iceland. One of those reasons is the climate.
JMHO
I realize this is off the original topic… Sorry!
Back on track… I think the scheduling changes do change college baseball… it takes more pitching than before. Other than that, it’s still unfair if you think it’s unfair. If the desired results are to see more northern teams in Omaha or winning the national championship… I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon... and I say… So what!
Here is my opinion…
There is no doubt that “more” good baseball players come from the south and the west.
The very best baseball players from the south or the west tend to stay there to attend college.
The very best baseball players (for the most part) from the north, want to attend colleges in the south or the west.
I like one thing about Iowa… Actually more than one, but what I’m talking about is the fact that Iowa happens to be the average state in so many ways. You know… right around #25 in most everything. Of course, it would be considered a northern state.
Well, because of what we do, we like to think we know who most of the best players in the country are. For sure, we know who the best players in Iowa are. Over the past 16 years just about every player who has been drafted or gone on to play DI baseball has been involved in our stuff. That includes the very best players of course.
Here is what we have seen… Ryan Sweeney was drafted and signed, but first he signed with San Diego State. Jeff Clement went to Southern Cal and became an All American and first round pick. Zach Von Tersch went to Georgia Tech, Jeremy Hellickson was drafted and signed, but had committed to LSU. Zach Dillon went to Baylor, a couple others signed with Oregon State. There are many more examples just like those. Those that stayed north went to Nebraska, Wichita State, Notre Dame and top northern programs. Yes, a few stayed in the state. In all that time I can’t remember a single player coming to the U of Iowa from Texas, California, Florida, Georgia, Arizona or any other warm weather climate.
So is that unfair? If so… How do you change that?
The thing that is the most unfair is the weather. Sure there are Big League clubs in the cold weather states. They go to Florida or Arizona for spring training. Maybe a rule that would allow northern colleges to spend two months down south for spring training would help. Of course, that is probably impossible. Until something like that happens, it will always be unfair. The real question… How do we change the climate? Global Warming doesn’t seem to be working.
Besides there are a few northern schools that are very good. Nebraska, Michigan, St Johns, Notre Dame and others have enjoyed some good success. Some would call places like Wichita State, Louisville and Kentucky northern schools, too.
None of this hurts baseball, it just means the southern and western schools have an advantage and that is obvious every year in Omaha. Whether that is unfair depends on how you look at it. Personally I just think it’s the way things are. The northern schools will still produce great players and big league stars, like always. The southern and western schools will produce more of them and continue winning national championships because they have “more” of the top players. Not all of them… Just more of them! The playing field is even IMO, every player has a chance to overcome the odds and succeed.
You know… There are some good reasons why Latin America produces so many great baseball players compared to places like Iceland. One of those reasons is the climate.
JMHO
I realize this is off the original topic… Sorry!
Back on track… I think the scheduling changes do change college baseball… it takes more pitching than before. Other than that, it’s still unfair if you think it’s unfair. If the desired results are to see more northern teams in Omaha or winning the national championship… I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon... and I say… So what!
great post PG
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Back on track… I think the scheduling changes do change college baseball… it takes more pitching than before. Other than that, it’s still unfair if you think it’s unfair. If the desired results are to see more northern teams in Omaha or winning the national championship… I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon... and I say… So what!
My impression is that they wanted a more even playing field (by beginning the practice season uniformly) to get a chance to get to the national championship, and I agree that these changes will not make that happen. What these chances have done, is burden the student athlete with NCAA BS more than they may already have been, the point JBB was trying to originally make.
quote:What these chances have done, is burden the student athlete with NCAA BS more than they may already have been, the point JBB was trying to originally make.
quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:quote:What these chances have done, is burden the student athlete with NCAA BS more than they may already have been, the point JBB was trying to originally make.
Wait a second here...just a few posts ago, the warm weather side was telling the cold weather side, life ain't fair, stop your whining and deal with it.
Does the sword cut both ways?
quote:Justbb quote:
Didn't know you had such a low opinion of me? Oh well.
Did I say something to bring that out? We've been around a long time together and that is the furthest thing the truth.
The NCAA has set standards for determining divisional status, All sports have start dates, coaching rules, academic rules, that are made for level playing fields. What makes baseball so special that there can be a temperate line drawn that determines whos special and whos not? Lets start games 2/1 so those teams that have to travel can miss more school. Baseball is tiny piece of the athletic pie, and the NCAA knows that small sacrifices made by the warm weather programs is within the competitive calendar lines drawn for other sports.
There are issues throughout history (racism, religion, nationality) where opinions are drawn for the sake of "position" within society. While baseball dwarfs those issues, I feel the baseball elites want no change, while those who live the experience want what some measure of equality across the board. Is that so bad to let all kids who live the dream, and whos schools qualify, play under the same opportunities.
All should share the same rewards and all should share the same sacrifices regardless of where they sit on the food chain.
As a conservative Republican that was real hard to type
quote:All should share the same rewards and all should share the same sacrifices regardless of where they sit on the food chain.
As a conservative Republican that was real hard to type
Now we are getting to the cruxt of the issue. Before arguing my point, I would like to say that no one in this thread has implied or suggested that rz1's son, or CPLZ's son, or OS8's sons are not great players in their own right because they chose to play ball in the north... that said...
rz1 - my friend - your son's sacrifice was not the same as my son's and that is the issue imho. For starters, your son was on a much bigger scholarship than mine. Were the southern schools offering the same type of financial packages as the northern schools were in your case? Assuming they were, how far did you have to drive to watch one of your son's games? We drive 12 hours but of course, we feel that drive is worth it.
You may have taken the big fish in the small pond approach and I obviously don't know that. You may have been guaranteed more playing time and of course I do not know that. I know the struggle/difficulty to first get on a team in the south and then in fact play for one. To now suggest all things should be equal seems unfair to me when in fact there are benfits to staying close to home. What am I missing here?
quote:As a conservative Republican that was real hard to type
Maybe so, but it was a great read!
Ok, didnt really want to get into this becasue I do not have the knowledge all of you have. So I most likeley will get pounded. I live in the warm Calif.Not going to get into who has better players etc,but in my opinion when the NCAA made the start date later for us warmer climate areas, so that it would be a more even playing field, fine whatever,my issue is more with the condensed schedule for ANY school. To me they can play about ten less games a year and not be playing so many games , esp during the week.I am not whining about who is freaking better, really dont care, SHOW me that on the field.
Maybe those in the colder climates have been dealing with the issue longer and their students have done well,I still think it is too much and academics will suffer.
If all this was done JUST for the sake of parity,when the NCAA is constantly talking about academics then I disagree with the change.I would of shortened the season all together,(yes thats what I would do) trying to cram as many games in in less time is stupid and academics will suffer, there will be more injuries.
All this North, South , east West,stuff is just stupid, we live in warm weather, we chose to live here and some of you live in the cold, thats life.The statistics show in Omaha as far as I am concerned, do you really think teams in the warm climates are not practicing??? hello, just no coaches, cant stop them from taking grounders, hitting, etc, maybe official start dates for practice have been pushed back but they are playing.
All thats changed is a condensed game schedule which is NOT in the best interest of the players and their schooling. Thats JMO.Blast away
Maybe those in the colder climates have been dealing with the issue longer and their students have done well,I still think it is too much and academics will suffer.
If all this was done JUST for the sake of parity,when the NCAA is constantly talking about academics then I disagree with the change.I would of shortened the season all together,(yes thats what I would do) trying to cram as many games in in less time is stupid and academics will suffer, there will be more injuries.
All this North, South , east West,stuff is just stupid, we live in warm weather, we chose to live here and some of you live in the cold, thats life.The statistics show in Omaha as far as I am concerned, do you really think teams in the warm climates are not practicing??? hello, just no coaches, cant stop them from taking grounders, hitting, etc, maybe official start dates for practice have been pushed back but they are playing.
All thats changed is a condensed game schedule which is NOT in the best interest of the players and their schooling. Thats JMO.Blast away
quote:rz1 - my friend - your son's sacrifice was not the same as my son's and that is the issue imho. For starters, your son was on a much bigger scholarship than mine. Were the southern schools offering the same type of financial packages as the northern schools were in your case?
When Ryan was recruited he said the best thing about the U of WI is that there was no baseball. He was ready for the "experience". He showed well in Jupiter and was on the MLB interest list well before he committed but he initiated college contacts and the returns were from good programs but not the ones on this short list. Financially, we planned early on for education within our means and that was not out of state. If you're not wanted, you should not go, just to go. The "fit"
I do see your points and and don't argue the academic issues behind it. I do respect your opinion, because it is yours. What bothers me is, I lived through the "no respect" issues. This is not a "puffy chest" comment but my son was the Coaches State Player of the Year and Gatorade POY and his top choices for college in the baseball belt wouldn't give him the time of day except for a couple of preferred walk-on invites. Their reasoning, out of State, and they owed it to their in State players. I respected that loyalty. The kid went to that wanted him was a Freshman All-American, #3 prospect in the Northwoods summer league. 4 of those teams that blew him off the year before had Northwoods players trying to recruit him to transfer and I'm sure it was at the coaches request. Maybe its my up bringing, but pompous, better than thou attitudes bring out the worse in me and probably plays into my opinion. They didn't do their homework and there are many other Northern kids who are also overlooked.
PG brings up good points, but, with the deepest respect for him, the cream always rises, and there are exceptions. I can attest with the Northwoods League that those South and West "prospects" do not stick out over the Northern players. I'm admitting that there are more pro caliber players in the warm climates but the big middle tier is a lot closer than many think, and the South bottom 3 position players and pitchers are probably better.
Besides isn't college about degrees and not baseball, those that go pro don't usually finish that part, yet they are the ones put Southern baseball above the North IMHO. I think we are seeing that with those teams digging deeper into the rotations and struggling with teams they would usually handle with the 1, 2, 3 starters.
The draft, pg ratings for the northern player, more upsets, and many more closer games is proof that the difference is closing, baby steps. Why stop the movement toward parity both athletically and with the academically problems?
Is it right that the Northern Student/Athlete has to deal with academic issues for a longer period than a Southern Student? My son went on 5or 6 weeks of road trips beginning early Feb and that was before home-home conference schedule. Now at least the academics are bad for everyone because of a condensed schedule.
quote:Assuming they were, how far did you have to drive to watch one of your son's games? We drive 12 hours but of course, we feel that drive is worth it.
If your son was on the bench and/or the team was on the other end, would you be making that drive as often? That's the traveling fish pond, you're in a special situation with a keeper player and keeper program. Like you I'm assuming there be a different look. In our case, IL was 3 hrs but there's a bounty on WI scalps, and our children are abducted and forced into toll booth labor and the mental cruelty o being herded into watch Bear games to avoid the attendance blackout. What about the Geneva convention pact?
quote:Is it right that the Northern Student/Athlete has to deal with academic issues for a longer period than a Southern Student? My son went on 5or 6 weeks of road trips beginning early Feb and that was before home-home conference schedule. Now at least the academics are bad for everyone because of a condensed schedule.
No thats my point, look at the last sentence, now the academics are bad for everyone becasue of a condensed schedule. So there is parity for teams but its college baseball and parity was more important than the players academics. So now more students suffer than before, how does that make sense becasue now its fair?? IS OMAHA that important, only a few teams get there every year.I just think the NCAA is stupid in many regards.
quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
So there is parity for teams but its college baseball and parity was more important than the players academics. So now more students suffer than before, how does that make sense becasue now its fair?? IS OMAHA that important, only a few teams get there every year.
fog,
There is no rule that says that teams have to play all 56 of their max allowed games. They can also, as more and more schools are doing, play some of those allotted games in fall, to help reduce an overcrowded scheduled.
Did the NCAA Faux Pas on the rule? Maybe, but lets bottom line the issue of who places athletics over academics, and that is the institutions themselves. They have other options. So the answer to your question about Omaha's importance, is that some schools value it much more than the athletes that participate there and they demonstrate that with their actions.
Who let Captain Obvious out to play?quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
I just think the NCAA is stupid in many regards.
So you're saying your son was lucky enough to get some well needed culture while he was here also. That's wonderful rz1, it will benefit him greatly when he arrives in NYC!quote:Originally posted by rz1:
...herded into watch Bear games...
quote:rz1 Quote:
Did I say something to bring that out? We've been around a long time together and that is the furthest thing the truth.
Then its my bad, not yours. Some clips you made and comments your responded with struck me in a funny way. I shoulda known better...I said this in a PM exchange with you but it needs to be said publicly too...I am sorry about my comment.
I didnt know of any teams playing their games in the fall, were there?.I see your point about the institutions not working this out. I know my comment about NCAA was obvious and probably like DUH? but they still **** me off.
quote:So the answer to your question about Omaha's importance, is that some schools value it much more than the athletes that participate there and they demonstrate that with their actions.
I am sure its a great experience.I just know of several boys who went to D1s this year and its pretty intense with schedules.Anyway I have homework to do,my son plays junior college ball and his schedule is making my education difficult.
quote:So the answer to your question about Omaha's importance, is that some schools value it much more than the athletes that participate there and they demonstrate that with their actions.
I don't get this statment. My son attended a program where going to Omaha is a major goal each year, yet I never found that he was not treated with respect as a student athlete.The expectations for him in the classroom were just as high as on the field.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:So the answer to your question about Omaha's importance, is that some schools value it much more than the athletes that participate there and they demonstrate that with their actions.
I don't get this statment. My son attended a program where going to Omaha is a major goal each year, yet I never found that he was not treated with respect as a student athlete.The expectations for him in the classroom were just as high as on the field.
Your son did not play in the uniform start date era.
Would you have a different opinion if your son had 4 games scheduled one week and the university decided to add two games in there at a moments notice in order to make for a couple of rainouts the previous week? I think that sends a pretty clear message about priority being Omaha and not academics.
Having an expectation of high academic achievement, and actually facilitating that expectation are two wholly separate issues.
CP,
Just to set the record straight, son played first two weeks on a 4 game schedule then it went to 5, season always began late february, but addition of schools to their conference forced mid february. Even though he managed to do well, I do agree that the compressed schedule is not in the best interest of most. I just wanted to set the record straight that for many teams that make it to Omaha year in and year out, have high team GPA's.
As pointed out to us at recruiting, the coach always prefered to begin late, classes are done by first week of May, giving the players over a month to play without classes. We knew going into it that 5 games was not unusual.
FWIW, South Carolina was on spring break last week, so the 6 games didn't hurt anyone missing classes, etc.
Just to set the record straight, son played first two weeks on a 4 game schedule then it went to 5, season always began late february, but addition of schools to their conference forced mid february. Even though he managed to do well, I do agree that the compressed schedule is not in the best interest of most. I just wanted to set the record straight that for many teams that make it to Omaha year in and year out, have high team GPA's.
As pointed out to us at recruiting, the coach always prefered to begin late, classes are done by first week of May, giving the players over a month to play without classes. We knew going into it that 5 games was not unusual.
FWIW, South Carolina was on spring break last week, so the 6 games didn't hurt anyone missing classes, etc.
The good ones know how to cope with change
Check out Boston College. Traveling hasn't hurt their W-L, they have not played one game at home and dominated over every Florida team they have played, including Florida State. Not one of those cupcake schools either.
Check out their roster too, all northern players.
While at it, check out UC Irvine, a warm weather school who also has traveled extensively the first few weeks. While I am not taking anything away from any player, in the end, better coaching wins games.
Do all of the homeboys get offers to play in state? Does playing in a desirable weather state always offer the best opportunity to develop as a player? I don't know, ask jmepop, Dad04, Orlando, floridanfan, JDfromFL to name a few. I do feel it was most likely all about "the fit".
As for my player, FSU showed no interest, and UM didn't pick it up until late summer after he played a tournie at UM. Our homeboys have to work just as hard as everyone else does to find the right place, the right program, etc.
Check out their roster too, all northern players.
While at it, check out UC Irvine, a warm weather school who also has traveled extensively the first few weeks. While I am not taking anything away from any player, in the end, better coaching wins games.
Do all of the homeboys get offers to play in state? Does playing in a desirable weather state always offer the best opportunity to develop as a player? I don't know, ask jmepop, Dad04, Orlando, floridanfan, JDfromFL to name a few. I do feel it was most likely all about "the fit".
As for my player, FSU showed no interest, and UM didn't pick it up until late summer after he played a tournie at UM. Our homeboys have to work just as hard as everyone else does to find the right place, the right program, etc.
quote:Our homeboys have to work just as hard as everyone else does to find the right place, the right program, etc.
That is a good point. Obviously, the local kids may have more opportunities for exposure to the southern programs but at the end of the day, it is their talent that wins out.
For cold-weather kids who desire to play in the south, I recomend PG events that are held in the south and targeting some southern college camps of interest in order to get a feel for the type of college environment they might like to participate in. One of our very best pitcher's this year is from Rhode Island.
CD
The MEO kid is the real deal
The past couple of years you had the Gagg boy from Jersey and he was your ace
The MEO kid is the real deal
The past couple of years you had the Gagg boy from Jersey and he was your ace
Not that those websters players I mentioned didn't have the talent to play D1 ball here in FL, but for some reason or another the fit may not have been right or perhaps like mine, just looked over. My player got more OUT OF STATE interest than in state and the one program he decided not to attend (UF) were reasons due to fit, school to big, classes too large, etc. FWIW, Notre Dame was a huge consideration at one point (what, a cold weather school for a warm weather player 
). And beleive it or not, son didn't come onto the UF radar until he played senior summer with a coach whose son was signed to play. He was the one who made a call, you got to see this guy play. The same with Auburn, his other son was playing at Auburn. Although son had a good recruiting experience, we made some mistakes along the way, one of them being the assumption because we lived in FL, a ranked FL player, he would get mega offers. Doesn't work that way. One more thing, many schools which I consider in southern states, Mississippi, LSU, Ole Miss, were NOT what he was looking for in a school environment. I strongly suggest a visit to these schools if you are not familiar within the DEEP south.
So much more to it than better weather or which conference.
I'll be that RI player made sure he got the exposure he needed in front of the CC coaches.
That is something one must do if you want to go play at a particular school, you have to prove how you are as a player by letting coaches see you play.
). And beleive it or not, son didn't come onto the UF radar until he played senior summer with a coach whose son was signed to play. He was the one who made a call, you got to see this guy play. The same with Auburn, his other son was playing at Auburn. Although son had a good recruiting experience, we made some mistakes along the way, one of them being the assumption because we lived in FL, a ranked FL player, he would get mega offers. Doesn't work that way. One more thing, many schools which I consider in southern states, Mississippi, LSU, Ole Miss, were NOT what he was looking for in a school environment. I strongly suggest a visit to these schools if you are not familiar within the DEEP south. So much more to it than better weather or which conference.
I'll be that RI player made sure he got the exposure he needed in front of the CC coaches.
That is something one must do if you want to go play at a particular school, you have to prove how you are as a player by letting coaches see you play.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
CD
The MEO kid is the real deal
The past couple of years you had the Gagg boy from Jersey and he was your ace
You are 100% correct. BTW, I know TrHit's teams participate in tournaments at Coastal so there are opportunities for exposure in many ways. Coastal also holds a showcase camp in New Jersey as that is where their recruiting coordinator is from. My son was the first Ohio kid to play for them and they have since recruiited two more Ohio kids this year who are very promising. In addition to the three Ohio kids, we have Pa kids, New Jersey kids, two from Rhode Island, Maryland, Illinois, several from Virginia, two from Oklahoma, two from Florida, an All-American from Indiana, and of course some from South Carolina. If you can play, and they become aware of you, it does not matter what part of the country you are from. Coastal scouts the PG events as well.
I invite people to check out North Carolina's roster as well. Some of their very best players are from the north. They had an All-American closer who played for TrHit's team a few year's back. Tim Federoff who was drafted last year by the Indians (signed for 3/4 million) is from New Jersey.
Showcases have hurt the northern programs. There was a kid in Maine who planned on playing at UMaine. He showed off his heat at a showcase. Every program in the country wanted him. Had he not signed he was going to pitch for Miami. Without much thought I can think of three seniors in our area who would have played at Villanova (Big East) or Penn State (Big Ten) in the 'ole days. Actually in the "ole days they would have played for Temple. They're all headed south to the ACC. I can think of two juniors off the top of my head doing the same the following year.quote:I like debating the North-South issue and player talent. Seems to me that those making assumptions are realizing that them guys in the bullpen at RPI#1 University aren't much better than the guys from Snowball University.
The colder weather programs will almost always lose the top players to warm weather. Why? Who wouldn't want to play in better weather if they don't mind going far from home. And "far from home" is now a relative term with unlimited long distance, free in network on cells and low airfares.
I love a good whine and geez party.quote:whinery industry
John Kruk during his rookie season with the Padres: He wakes up in his hotel room, looks out the window and says, "What ocean is that?"quote:....and the coast of Lake Michigan.