Grades, ACT, financial aid?

standballdad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

9and7dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

I said AP Biology is only helpful if you plan on pursing biology, if you want to be a Dr. then by all means take AP bio, take honors government, take Calc II because you have the type of brain that needs to be challenged. 

BUT, what if you don't want to go to Harvard?  What if you want to stay close to home and go to the local college that admits people with a 2.0?  What if you want to be a gym teacher?  What if you want to be a cop?  What if you want to pursue a career and path in life where AP Bio will have no relevance.

Why can't parents in this generation accept that not all of our children are "special"? Honors and AP classes were created for the kids who wanted to explore particular subjects more in depth.  Created for students that had a passion about a particular subject, they were not created for the masses.  Do ALL of our children have to be so special they ALL must take honors and AP courses? 

I think it's as simple as how you, and your child, define success.  The problem is that by not striving to maximize opportunity while still in high school, doors start to close and the definition of success is defined for you, not by you.

What's the opportunity?

So many times on this site people who have kids that have graduated from high school and college come back on here and say to enjoy the moment because it goes by fast.  They say you can't buy athleticism with all the lessons, and some kids just aren't D1 material, and to embrace who your kid is as a person, regardless of their baseball.  Why can't we turn that advice into academics? 

I have heard the baseball arguments and they sound the same as the AP/honors academic arguments.  He has to take AP classes so he doesn't fall behind his peers on the race to college.  He has to take AP classes when he is 14 and 15 so he can be challenged?  He needs 3 hours a week on his tutoring to maintain his skill level.

Why can't we accept our kids natural skill level in baseball and academics? What is the point in loading up a kid who wants to be a gym teacher with AP Calc, AP Bio, AP Government?  Should he take an ACT prep course, sure, should he sacrifice hundreds of hours in his high school time, where he should be enjoying his last days of being a kid, to keep up with the Jones'es, nope!

Every child is different. I think the point here is why limit what your child from being the best he can be, regardless if its sports or academics. I know many kids that did all the above and some, and had a terrific HS experience. I feel it is the parents job to motivate and nudge their children if required to excel. You are right that there is a balance in HS but you need to know what the right balance is for your child. Unless the child is pushed to or beyond his limits how would you ever know. I have two sons that took different paths in HS as well as college. One did not need any nudging at all and worked extremely hard in HS but also loved every minute of HS. The other needed to be nudged a bit more but we did not force anything on him. The balance of academics and sports was different but without at least exploring we would not have known. 

My son's school does a very good job at introducing various topics/activities/books/clubs/games on a wide variety on cleverly hidden academic items. If my kid was fascinated in CSI shows, doing extra math problems for fun, maybe bringing home books on Presidents and their terms; I would nudge him into any one of those AP/Honors directions. However, he would have to have an interest in learning more on a particular topic, or show that he has an innate understanding.  If a kids math tests were 98, 92, 100; I would ask he be moved up, but if his test scores are 59, 87, 72..etc,  I would not arbitrarily put him in AP Math because I thought it was what was best for him.  How is that different than that 15 year old playing baseball because dad wants him to play, not because he enjoys it?

3and2Fastball posted:

This doesn't pertain as much to this thread but is more about the system in general.   I'm seeing a lot of student athletes in high school taking easy classes in high school just to pad their GPA's as opposed to challenging themselves, it is an unfortunate side effect (or perhaps, direct effect) of the way things are.

When a high school freshman or sophomore takes an easier math class plus Woodworking 2 or history of music as opposed to advanced calculus, simply because they are chasing academic $$$ 4-5 years down the line, that ain't good.

A kid from our high school went to Vanderbilt on a football ride. He had a 4.35 in high school. That's his 40 time. He was a nice kid (despite being on probation for decking a cop), but dumber than a bag of rocks. But he had a Vanderbilt qualifying gpa based on taking the easiest courses possible in high school. He lasted one semester. He transferred to another D1 and lasted one semester there. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

It is no secret that the tippy top schools require: near perfect grades, the MOST rigorous cirriculum offered at that HS, and top scores. (Not to fret if your HS doesn't offer 30 AP's; the measure is the hardest courses offered at your HS.)

During our tours, a constant question went something like this: "should I take an AP and make a B, or an honors class and make an A?"  The constant answer was: "take the AP and make an A." 

I have read all of this thread and I have to say it stinks. Let me be the bad guy and say I'd rather my kid play a sport, hang out with his friends and BE A KID than do 4 hours of homework a night so he can take the honors and AP courses and have a "challenging" schedule.  You know what is challenging?  Being a kid in a society that wants them all to be little grown ups.

Off to tell my kid to load up on Phys ed and Wood Shop....both of which will serve him FAR better in the future than AP Bio, which has no practical use in the real world unless you plan on pursing Biology.  I took AP Bio, I can't figure out how to fix the mail box, wood shop would have been handy right around now.

That is a really bad take.  Biology has quite a bit of value in the real world.  My brother in law received his Bachelor's in Biology, which allowed him entry into Dental School.  He is now an Endodontist, and he will far surpass my salary - Business Admin., soon to complete my MBA.  He will soon be a millionaire, and I will still be "working for the man".

Telling your kid to take woodshop and PE is not good advice. He needs to be challenged, and he will be thankful later.

I said AP Biology is only helpful if you plan on pursing biology, if you want to be a Dr. then by all means take AP bio, take honors government, take Calc II because you have the type of brain that needs to be challenged. 

BUT, what if you don't want to go to Harvard?  What if you want to stay close to home and go to the local college that admits people with a 2.0?  What if you want to be a gym teacher?  What if you want to be a cop?  What if you want to pursue a career and path in life where AP Bio will have no relevance.

Why can't parents in this generation accept that not all of our children are "special"? Honors and AP classes were created for the kids who wanted to explore particular subjects more in depth.  Created for students that had a passion about a particular subject, they were not created for the masses.  Do ALL of our children have to be so special they ALL must take honors and AP courses? 

He/she who graduates with the most AP credits and mom's hand me down Mercedes wins.

Our high school parking lot looked like a CarMax lot for Beemers, Mercedes, Audis, Lexuses, Volvos, etc.. I'm a mean dad. I humiliated my kids by buying them 6yo Civics senior year. They did have the AP credits. They eventually bought their own Audis and Lexuses.

"If a kids math tests were 98, 92, 100; I would ask he be moved up, but if his test scores are 59, 87, 72..etc, I would not arbitrarily put him in AP Math because I thought it was what was best for him."

Agreed. But, I'd also try to figure out why the scores were so low: LD, poor math foundation, remedial with some tutoring, poor study skills, didn't do homework, skipped class, etc.?  If his scores equaled his potential, you can't squeeze more ; if not it's time to learn how to reach his potential.

"How is that different than that 15 year old playing baseball because dad wants him to play, not because he enjoys it?"

No 15 yr old should be playing because a parent wants him to play; but, if it's [something] or hanging out watching CSI, then he will be playing/studying [something]. Moreover, not playing baseball is inconsequential over the next 40 years; not being able to read or do math has huge consequences.

Just make sure your kids are taking the most challenging classes that they're capable of taking.  This will change from year to year as the student and parent find out what type of student he is.  Sometimes kids on the aggressive AP track to get into a top school need to have their class work loads re-balanced, because it's stress overload.  My 2018 is almost too motivated.  He was scheduled to take 4 AP's senior year, we told him to take only 3, and have an elective that would balance out the work load.  We encouraged wood shop or an art class.  (It will be helpful for my kid to have a clue about a hammer vs just advance backhand work at SS)    

My son has been challenged and he's learned to challenge himself in the classroom.  My son is in a good position to change directions if he chooses.  He can now possibly get into a top academic with baseball as his hook, or if baseball were to disappear, he's done well enough to get into a top state school where he'll continue to thrive.

Goosegg posted:

"If a kids math tests were 98, 92, 100; I would ask he be moved up, but if his test scores are 59, 87, 72..etc, I would not arbitrarily put him in AP Math because I thought it was what was best for him."

Agreed. But, I'd also try to figure out why the scores were so low: LD, poor math foundation, remedial with some tutoring, poor study skills, didn't do homework, skipped class, etc.?  If his scores equaled his potential, you can't squeeze more ; if not it's time to learn how to reach his potential.

"How is that different than that 15 year old playing baseball because dad wants him to play, not because he enjoys it?"

No 15 yr old should be playing because a parent wants him to play; but, if it's [something] or hanging out watching CSI, then he will be playing/studying [something]. Moreover, not playing baseball is inconsequential over the next 40 years; not being able to read or do math has huge consequences.

And we have circled back to what is special?  So if my kid isn't getting A's I should assume there is something wrong with him?

"I feel it is the parents job to motivate and nudge their children if required to excel."

Make sure you encourage and love your kid while nudging. My son has six close friends. Two of them are really struggling as juniors in high school with what they want to do, grades, etc. My son and another of the boys seem very settled and confident in themselves. Other two are kind of in between.

Here's what I notice — the difference seems to correlate with how their parents talk to and about them. The two who are struggling have parents who say "I can't get Johnny up in the morning. " "Johnny's too small to play at a D1 level." "Carl just has no ambition."

The kids who are doing okay have parents who say "Gosh, I love talking to my kid. He has goofy ideas sometimes, but I love hearing them. " or "It's a struggle to make those 6 a.m. workouts, but I'm so proud that he got himself up for this morning's workout." or "Yea, he doesn't know exactly what he wants to do , but here's what he's working on."

In other words, the parents who talk positively about their kids have kids who feel positively about themselves. The ones who mostly see the negatives in their kids have kids who don't feel good about themselves.

Our job as parents has to be encouraging kids to feel good about where they are heading, whether it's Vanderbilt or the local community college. Or trade school.

"we have circled back to what is special? So if my kid isn't getting A's I should assume there is something wrong with him?"

I wouldn't assume anything without knowing the facts. Those facts include speaking with the teachers to learn their opinions, going on-line daily (if your school allows it) to monitor homework assignments and grades, speaking with the school guidance counselor about possible LD issues, figuring out whether and how study habits can be improved, etc. I would seek to ascertain why the grades are not better (again, if a kid is working to his potential, that's all you can do; if not, there is a lot which can - and should - be done) do what is needed to get him engaged. (I was a terrible HS student; looking back, it was because my parents were totally unengaged - no one pushing or explaining why to do better. It took me until my junior year in college - after I had dropped out for five years - to figure it out. From that point on academics were easy. I guess it was my fault it took so long to get the motor going; but I had no clue how everything would fit together.)

In short, personally I would scratch and burrow until I was satisfied that the kid was leaving no stone unturned.  He can't do anything beyond that.

CaCO3Girl posted:

standballdad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

9and7dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

I said AP Biology is only helpful if you plan on pursing biology, if you want to be a Dr. then by all means take AP bio, take honors government, take Calc II because you have the type of brain that needs to be challenged. 

BUT, what if you don't want to go to Harvard?  What if you want to stay close to home and go to the local college that admits people with a 2.0?  What if you want to be a gym teacher?  What if you want to be a cop?  What if you want to pursue a career and path in life where AP Bio will have no relevance.

Why can't parents in this generation accept that not all of our children are "special"? Honors and AP classes were created for the kids who wanted to explore particular subjects more in depth.  Created for students that had a passion about a particular subject, they were not created for the masses.  Do ALL of our children have to be so special they ALL must take honors and AP courses? 

I think it's as simple as how you, and your child, define success.  The problem is that by not striving to maximize opportunity while still in high school, doors start to close and the definition of success is defined for you, not by you.

What's the opportunity?

So many times on this site people who have kids that have graduated from high school and college come back on here and say to enjoy the moment because it goes by fast.  They say you can't buy athleticism with all the lessons, and some kids just aren't D1 material, and to embrace who your kid is as a person, regardless of their baseball.  Why can't we turn that advice into academics? 

I have heard the baseball arguments and they sound the same as the AP/honors academic arguments.  He has to take AP classes so he doesn't fall behind his peers on the race to college.  He has to take AP classes when he is 14 and 15 so he can be challenged?  He needs 3 hours a week on his tutoring to maintain his skill level.

Why can't we accept our kids natural skill level in baseball and academics? What is the point in loading up a kid who wants to be a gym teacher with AP Calc, AP Bio, AP Government?  Should he take an ACT prep course, sure, should he sacrifice hundreds of hours in his high school time, where he should be enjoying his last days of being a kid, to keep up with the Jones'es, nope!

Every child is different. I think the point here is why limit what your child from being the best he can be, regardless if its sports or academics. I know many kids that did all the above and some, and had a terrific HS experience. I feel it is the parents job to motivate and nudge their children if required to excel. You are right that there is a balance in HS but you need to know what the right balance is for your child. Unless the child is pushed to or beyond his limits how would you ever know. I have two sons that took different paths in HS as well as college. One did not need any nudging at all and worked extremely hard in HS but also loved every minute of HS. The other needed to be nudged a bit more but we did not force anything on him. The balance of academics and sports was different but without at least exploring we would not have known. 

My son's school does a very good job at introducing various topics/activities/books/clubs/games on a wide variety on cleverly hidden academic items. If my kid was fascinated in CSI shows, doing extra math problems for fun, maybe bringing home books on Presidents and their terms; I would nudge him into any one of those AP/Honors directions. However, he would have to have an interest in learning more on a particular topic, or show that he has an innate understanding.  If a kids math tests were 98, 92, 100; I would ask he be moved up, but if his test scores are 59, 87, 72..etc,  I would not arbitrarily put him in AP Math because I thought it was what was best for him.  How is that different than that 15 year old playing baseball because dad wants him to play, not because he enjoys it?

Forcing and nudging kids in HS are different. Nudging is having discussions with your child and trying to convey the pros and cons of whatever you are trying to convince them what is the best thing to do. Forcing them to do something only creates hostility. I would never leave it solely up to a HS kid to make the right choices without strong parental guidance. They will thank you later.

Iowamom23 posted:

"I feel it is the parents job to motivate and nudge their children if required to excel."

Make sure you encourage and love your kid while nudging. My son has six close friends. Two of them are really struggling as juniors in high school with what they want to do, grades, etc. My son and another of the boys seem very settled and confident in themselves. Other two are kind of in between.

Here's what I notice — the difference seems to correlate with how their parents talk to and about them. The two who are struggling have parents who say "I can't get Johnny up in the morning. " "Johnny's too small to play at a D1 level." "Carl just has no ambition."

The kids who are doing okay have parents who say "Gosh, I love talking to my kid. He has goofy ideas sometimes, but I love hearing them. " or "It's a struggle to make those 6 a.m. workouts, but I'm so proud that he got himself up for this morning's workout." or "Yea, he doesn't know exactly what he wants to do , but here's what he's working on."

In other words, the parents who talk positively about their kids have kids who feel positively about themselves. The ones who mostly see the negatives in their kids have kids who don't feel good about themselves.

Our job as parents has to be encouraging kids to feel good about where they are heading, whether it's Vanderbilt or the local community college. Or trade school.

Yes agree with what you are saying. Having a good relationship with your child makes it much easier to have those types of discussions.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

"If a kids math tests were 98, 92, 100; I would ask he be moved up, but if his test scores are 59, 87, 72..etc, I would not arbitrarily put him in AP Math because I thought it was what was best for him."

Agreed. But, I'd also try to figure out why the scores were so low: LD, poor math foundation, remedial with some tutoring, poor study skills, didn't do homework, skipped class, etc.?  If his scores equaled his potential, you can't squeeze more ; if not it's time to learn how to reach his potential.

"How is that different than that 15 year old playing baseball because dad wants him to play, not because he enjoys it?"

No 15 yr old should be playing because a parent wants him to play; but, if it's [something] or hanging out watching CSI, then he will be playing/studying [something]. Moreover, not playing baseball is inconsequential over the next 40 years; not being able to read or do math has huge consequences.

And we have circled back to what is special?  So if my kid isn't getting A's I should assume there is something wrong with him?

Nobody even suggests this.  My 2016 was a B student, few A's and few C's early on while he was trying to figure out how to study.  He was challenged.  He's a freshman at Auburn electing not to play ball at Creighton.  He's happy, he's involved, he gets along with people very well, he had a B avg first semester.  He'll do well in life.  He took 2 years of wood shop - loved it.  He can fix things if he needs to...  his interest is business analytics, if he changes his mind, so what.

we challenged him, he's challenged himself, not an Ivy track, so what, that wasn't him anyway. He's on his path with lots of options.  If he kicked ass in the classroom over the next three years he'll have more options.  Up to him now.  We provided him  a life toolset.

Gov posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

"If a kids math tests were 98, 92, 100; I would ask he be moved up, but if his test scores are 59, 87, 72..etc, I would not arbitrarily put him in AP Math because I thought it was what was best for him."

Agreed. But, I'd also try to figure out why the scores were so low: LD, poor math foundation, remedial with some tutoring, poor study skills, didn't do homework, skipped class, etc.?  If his scores equaled his potential, you can't squeeze more ; if not it's time to learn how to reach his potential.

"How is that different than that 15 year old playing baseball because dad wants him to play, not because he enjoys it?"

No 15 yr old should be playing because a parent wants him to play; but, if it's [something] or hanging out watching CSI, then he will be playing/studying [something]. Moreover, not playing baseball is inconsequential over the next 40 years; not being able to read or do math has huge consequences.

And we have circled back to what is special?  So if my kid isn't getting A's I should assume there is something wrong with him?

Nobody even suggests this.  My 2016 was a B student, few A's and few C's early on while he was trying to figure out how to study.  He was challenged.  He's a freshman at Auburn electing not to play ball at Creighton.  He's happy, he's involved, he gets along with people very well, he had a B avg first semester.  He'll do well in life.  He took 2 years of wood shop - loved it.  He can fix things if he needs to...  his interest is business analytics, if he changes his mind, so what.

we challenged him, he's challenged himself, not an Ivy track, so what, that wasn't him anyway. He's on his path with lots of options.  If he kicked ass in the classroom over the next three years he'll have more options.  Up to him now.  We provided him  a life toolset.

 Ugh, you had me so with you with the he's happy, he's involved, he gets along with people, he has a B average...that is a wonderful place for your kid to be in!  Then you said he would have more options if he kicked ass in the classroom over the next 3 years and you lost me.

When I graduated college one job that I applied for asked for my transcripts, ONE. It didn't matter if I had a 2.0 GPA or a 4.0 GPA, all that mattered was that I had a piece of paper saying I completed the requirements to graduate.  I didn't get that job, lol, but I have still done very well for myself.  There are always other paths, the most important thing is the degree.

I work with a lady who takes away her kids computer if he brings home less than a 90, I don't get that way of life.  So much hostility and anger in a relationship just can't be good.  Could the kid possibly have done better, maybe, is it worth the relationship with the child, I don't think so.

I sincerely believe that Academics and baseball are parallel discussions.  There is a top 1% and they are locked to get whatever they want.  But the majority of people who play baseball and go to school are in fact, by definition, average.  The amount of people who believe their children MUST enroll in honors and AP courses to attend college is staggering. I just didn't want this thread to perpetuate that rumor.

"When I graduated college one job that I applied for asked for my transcripts, ONE. It didn't matter if I had a 2.0 GPA or a 4.0 GPA, all that mattered was that I had a piece of paper saying I completed the requirements to graduate. I didn't get that job, lol, but I have still done very well for myself. There are always other paths, the most important thing is the degree."

I have (had) two kids in a great school; I have neices and nephews who graduated from state schools near the top of their class; my wife and I finished back in the day near the top of our grad school classes (one state, one private). Now, maybe because of the school, the employers, or the ranking, but every one of my interviews, my wife's interviews, my kids interviews (for internships and for real jobs), my neices and nephews interviews involved passing the first "cut" - which was totally based upon a piece of paper. That paper had work experience and grades; heck many employers won't even interview unless you're in at least a certain section of the class.

Now, as a businessman who hired essentially unskilled workers for 25 years, a resume and/or transcript was worthless - I used my gut and an interview to do the first cut.

The difference is I pay minimum wage and all those referenced above got a bit more. 

Let me ask you this (no need to answer if it's too personal): is this your oldest boy?

Goosegg posted:

"When I graduated college one job that I applied for asked for my transcripts, ONE. It didn't matter if I had a 2.0 GPA or a 4.0 GPA, all that mattered was that I had a piece of paper saying I completed the requirements to graduate. I didn't get that job, lol, but I have still done very well for myself. There are always other paths, the most important thing is the degree."

I have (had) two kids in a great school; I have neices and nephews who graduated from state schools near the top of their class; my wife and I finished back in the day near the top of our grad school classes (one state, one private). Now, maybe because of the school, the employers, or the ranking, but every one of my interviews, my wife's interviews, my kids interviews (for internships and for real jobs), my neices and nephews interviews involved passing the first "cut" - which was totally based upon a piece of paper. That paper had work experience and grades; heck many employers won't even interview unless you're in at least a certain section of the class.

Now, as a businessman who hired essentially unskilled workers for 25 years, a resume and/or transcript was worthless - I used my gut and an interview to do the first cut.

The difference is I pay minimum wage and all those referenced above got a bit more. 

Let me ask you this (no need to answer if it's too personal): is this your oldest boy?

 

Yes, this is my oldest boy.

Also, I'm really confused.  I have worked in 3 states, at jobs that paid 1.5-6X minimum wage, interviewed maybe 10 times in my life, over 20 years, and only when I interviewed for a government job did someone ask me for a transcript.  Weird how different our experiences were.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

"When I graduated college one job that I applied for asked for my transcripts, ONE. It didn't matter if I had a 2.0 GPA or a 4.0 GPA, all that mattered was that I had a piece of paper saying I completed the requirements to graduate. I didn't get that job, lol, but I have still done very well for myself. There are always other paths, the most important thing is the degree."

I have (had) two kids in a great school; I have neices and nephews who graduated from state schools near the top of their class; my wife and I finished back in the day near the top of our grad school classes (one state, one private). Now, maybe because of the school, the employers, or the ranking, but every one of my interviews, my wife's interviews, my kids interviews (for internships and for real jobs), my neices and nephews interviews involved passing the first "cut" - which was totally based upon a piece of paper. That paper had work experience and grades; heck many employers won't even interview unless you're in at least a certain section of the class.

Now, as a businessman who hired essentially unskilled workers for 25 years, a resume and/or transcript was worthless - I used my gut and an interview to do the first cut.

The difference is I pay minimum wage and all those referenced above got a bit more. 

Let me ask you this (no need to answer if it's too personal): is this your oldest boy?

 

Yes, this is my oldest boy.

Also, I'm really confused.  I have worked in 3 states, at jobs that paid 1.5-6X minimum wage, interviewed maybe 10 times in my life, over 20 years, and only when I interviewed for a government job did someone ask me for a transcript.  Weird how different our experiences were.

Had one employer look at my resume and mildly freak out that I had a master's degree. He was intimidated that I had more education than he did. But no one has ever asked for my grades, they just wanted to know that I graduated.

Re resumes:

• Resumes are designed to sell the candidate. Each resume (as opposed to a job application) will highlight the candidate's strengths (not weaknesses); if a resume contains "holes" (e.g., a year spent in jail would show up as a missing year when the resume is broken down), the holes stand out to people who are accustomed to reading and analyzing resumes. Missing information (e.g., grades when most resumes contain grades) will always be assumed to lean against the candidate.
• As a person acquires work experience, their college stats become less important; at some point performance in college/grad school becomes irrelevant as work experience demonstrates competency.
• when I was an interviewer for jobs which were extremely well paid (for recent law school grads), kids with good grades/ranks put that right at the top; any resume missing this was a red flag - no one got through the first cut without that.
• when I actually hired (and paid essentially out of my pocket since I owned the biz) people during the depths of the recession, I would get Masters degrees looking for an unskilled minimum wage job; that was good enough for me - the worst well educated person was generally better than a HS grad for our needs.
• as my kids moved through college, each would send the resume home for proof reading. One thing that struck me was - for internships early in college - their HS stats were included. I would object that HS was irrelevant to a college job; was overruled by the career services office - who we accepted as experts in employment issues for that college.
• when applying for several SBA loans, the bank required a detailed resume of the owners; the bank wanted to know not only from where you graduated, but also how well you did (expressed in GPA, honors, awards, whatever) (interestingly, this was never a requirement for regular commercial loans)
• as my kids moved into real permanent jobs, we proofed each resume. No HS stats; but overall GPA, individual classes (with grades), honors and awards were right at the top. Essentially a candidate was demonstrating competence in an area which was important to the employer - competence was reflected in a grade. 
• strong candidates have lots of selling points; "beating" your competition is one - which is expressed through better results (generally) in head to head competition (grades).
• the less well paid the job, the fewer potential employees (absent a huge recession). The less well paid the job, generally, the cheaper it is to train an employee. Therefore, there is less monetary risk in a shallower pool for an employer - hence college performance isn't that important. The higher paid the job, the more competition. The higher paid the job, the more monetary expense there is to the employer to train (and even relocate) the employee (generally). With more on the line, the more competition, the more important the objective measures become; early in the working career, those objective measures are college performance.

As we discuss resumes, we actually may be saying the same thing: for some jobs grades/school matter; for others not so much. The point is how does a parent of HS freshman know which will be important in a decade; the least risky approach is to get to the top of the "pyramid" and then have the choice to work anywhere.

Goosegg,  I had a big long reply typed out about how your world and mine must be vastly different in how and why we hire people, but I'll just leave it with "I will report back in 10 years and let you know how it goes".

I never had anyone ask for a transcript and I don't remember ever talking about grades in an interview.  I remember that Merrill Lynch made me take some tests in one phase of interviews.    

9and7dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

It is no secret that the tippy top schools require: near perfect grades, the MOST rigorous cirriculum offered at that HS, and top scores. (Not to fret if your HS doesn't offer 30 AP's; the measure is the hardest courses offered at your HS.)

During our tours, a constant question went something like this: "should I take an AP and make a B, or an honors class and make an A?"  The constant answer was: "take the AP and make an A." 

I have read all of this thread and I have to say it stinks. Let me be the bad guy and say I'd rather my kid play a sport, hang out with his friends and BE A KID than do 4 hours of homework a night so he can take the honors and AP courses and have a "challenging" schedule.  You know what is challenging?  Being a kid in a society that wants them all to be little grown ups.

Off to tell my kid to load up on Phys ed and Wood Shop....both of which will serve him FAR better in the future than AP Bio, which has no practical use in the real world unless you plan on pursing Biology.  I took AP Bio, I can't figure out how to fix the mail box, wood shop would have been handy right around now.

That is a really bad take.  Biology has quite a bit of value in the real world.  My brother in law received his Bachelor's in Biology, which allowed him entry into Dental School.  He is now an Endodontist, and he will far surpass my salary - Business Admin., soon to complete my MBA.  He will soon be a millionaire, and I will still be "working for the man".

Telling your kid to take woodshop and PE is not good advice. He needs to be challenged, and he will be thankful later.

I said AP Biology is only helpful if you plan on pursing biology, if you want to be a Dr. then by all means take AP bio, take honors government, take Calc II because you have the type of brain that needs to be challenged. 

BUT, what if you don't want to go to Harvard?  What if you want to stay close to home and go to the local college that admits people with a 2.0?  What if you want to be a gym teacher?  What if you want to be a cop?  What if you want to pursue a career and path in life where AP Bio will have no relevance.

Why can't parents in this generation accept that not all of our children are "special"? Honors and AP classes were created for the kids who wanted to explore particular subjects more in depth.  Created for students that had a passion about a particular subject, they were not created for the masses.  Do ALL of our children have to be so special they ALL must take honors and AP courses? 

I think it's as simple as how you, and your child, define success.  The problem is that by not striving to maximize opportunity while still in high school, doors start to close and the definition of success is defined for you, not by you.

Holy Smokes Nuke!  During this entire conversation over several days, I've been thinking of that scene.  I've probably played it in my head a dozen times this week.  Ted Knight (RIP) could read the phone book and I'd probably laugh.  Too funny.

decent article on grades and jobs. moral: it depends on a lot of factors.

https://www.cleverism.com/gpa-matter-applying-job/

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

It is no secret that the tippy top schools require: near perfect grades, the MOST rigorous cirriculum offered at that HS, and top scores. (Not to fret if your HS doesn't offer 30 AP's; the measure is the hardest courses offered at your HS.)

During our tours, a constant question went something like this: "should I take an AP and make a B, or an honors class and make an A?"  The constant answer was: "take the AP and make an A." 

I have read all of this thread and I have to say it stinks. Let me be the bad guy and say I'd rather my kid play a sport, hang out with his friends and BE A KID than do 4 hours of homework a night so he can take the honors and AP courses and have a "challenging" schedule.  You know what is challenging?  Being a kid in a society that wants them all to be little grown ups.

Off to tell my kid to load up on Phys ed and Wood Shop....both of which will serve him FAR better in the future than AP Bio, which has no practical use in the real world unless you plan on pursing Biology.  I took AP Bio, I can't figure out how to fix the mail box, wood shop would have been handy right around now.

As I read through this post,  with these off the cuff remarks and back and forth jabs, I thought I was on Facebook.  

If you are in HS, you are a few years away from being a legal adult in this country.  IMO, as a parent, and not as my kid's best friend, I would want to challenge him.  Push him to be better. I wouldn't want him to hang out at the mall or play video games for 4 hours. Can he succeed at the next academic level?  Then take Honors or AP courses, don't settle for an easy grade.  This teaches him work ethic which will be valuable in baseball as well as in life.

If you are okay with your kid aspiring to be a gym teacher or work in construction than so be it, have him load up on Phys Ed and Wood Shop.  It seems you find fixing the mail box more important than understanding the human body, whether it is in an AP or a regular bio class.

Nothing wrong with a gym teacher or to work in construction, but don't expect 6 figure salaries and the same chances in life as others that have applied themselves.  

Wait... Hmm, I just described millennials.  Young adults now a days that feel they are entitled to everything even though they haven't put in any work. Lol.

JYNY posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

It is no secret that the tippy top schools require: near perfect grades, the MOST rigorous cirriculum offered at that HS, and top scores. (Not to fret if your HS doesn't offer 30 AP's; the measure is the hardest courses offered at your HS.)

During our tours, a constant question went something like this: "should I take an AP and make a B, or an honors class and make an A?"  The constant answer was: "take the AP and make an A." 

I have read all of this thread and I have to say it stinks. Let me be the bad guy and say I'd rather my kid play a sport, hang out with his friends and BE A KID than do 4 hours of homework a night so he can take the honors and AP courses and have a "challenging" schedule.  You know what is challenging?  Being a kid in a society that wants them all to be little grown ups.

Off to tell my kid to load up on Phys ed and Wood Shop....both of which will serve him FAR better in the future than AP Bio, which has no practical use in the real world unless you plan on pursing Biology.  I took AP Bio, I can't figure out how to fix the mail box, wood shop would have been handy right around now.

As I read through this post,  with these off the cuff remarks and back and forth jabs, I thought I was on Facebook.  

If you are in HS, you are a few years away from being a legal adult in this country.  IMO, as a parent, and not as my kid's best friend, I would want to challenge him.  Push him to be better. I wouldn't want him to hang out at the mall or play video games for 4 hours. Can he succeed at the next academic level?  Then take Honors or AP courses, don't settle for an easy grade.  This teaches him work ethic which will be valuable in baseball as well as in life.

If you are okay with your kid aspiring to be a gym teacher or work in construction than so be it, have him load up on Phys Ed and Wood Shop.  It seems you find fixing the mail box more important than understanding the human body, whether it is in an AP or a regular bio class.

Nothing wrong with a gym teacher or to work in construction, but don't expect 6 figure salaries and the same chances in life as others that have applied themselves.  

Wait... Hmm, I just described millennials.  Young adults now a days that feel they are entitled to everything even though they haven't put in any work. Lol.

I think the problem with milennials are the parents.  

Unless your kid was born with God given ability he's not likely to throw 95, earn 6 figures, or get straight A's. An entire generation of parents are saying ANYTHING is possible if you just work at it...it's not. 

There are special people, but not everyone is special.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

"When I graduated college one job that I applied for asked for my transcripts, ONE. It didn't matter if I had a 2.0 GPA or a 4.0 GPA, all that mattered was that I had a piece of paper saying I completed the requirements to graduate. I didn't get that job, lol, but I have still done very well for myself. There are always other paths, the most important thing is the degree."

I have (had) two kids in a great school; I have neices and nephews who graduated from state schools near the top of their class; my wife and I finished back in the day near the top of our grad school classes (one state, one private). Now, maybe because of the school, the employers, or the ranking, but every one of my interviews, my wife's interviews, my kids interviews (for internships and for real jobs), my neices and nephews interviews involved passing the first "cut" - which was totally based upon a piece of paper. That paper had work experience and grades; heck many employers won't even interview unless you're in at least a certain section of the class.

Now, as a businessman who hired essentially unskilled workers for 25 years, a resume and/or transcript was worthless - I used my gut and an interview to do the first cut.

The difference is I pay minimum wage and all those referenced above got a bit more. 

Let me ask you this (no need to answer if it's too personal): is this your oldest boy?

 

Yes, this is my oldest boy.

Also, I'm really confused.  I have worked in 3 states, at jobs that paid 1.5-6X minimum wage, interviewed maybe 10 times in my life, over 20 years, and only when I interviewed for a government job did someone ask me for a transcript.  Weird how different our experiences were.

Yes, the Federal Government (which I worked for 15 years) did ask for my transcripts, especially if it is a specific degree that qualified you for a position. Don't know if it is still the case, but the Federal government had what was called "SAA", Superior Academic Achievement which could give one a higher "entry level " grade with a Bachelor's degree if you met one of several criteria (specific rank in class, specific overall GPA, specific GPA in major).

d-mac posted:

I never had anyone ask for a transcript and I don't remember ever talking about grades in an interview.  I remember that Merrill Lynch made me take some tests in one phase of interviews.    

Coming out of college I was asked gpa and major. The companies I interviewed with were consistent with this request. The company that hired me requested a copy of my transcripts stamped approved for graduation. 

After the first job I was never asked again. My first job was a company others liked to loot for employees. With the second job it was about production which is easily proven in sales plus your reputation on the street. I was recruited to my second job. I left when the first employer purchased them. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

JYNY posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

It is no secret that the tippy top schools require: near perfect grades, the MOST rigorous cirriculum offered at that HS, and top scores. (Not to fret if your HS doesn't offer 30 AP's; the measure is the hardest courses offered at your HS.)

During our tours, a constant question went something like this: "should I take an AP and make a B, or an honors class and make an A?"  The constant answer was: "take the AP and make an A." 

I have read all of this thread and I have to say it stinks. Let me be the bad guy and say I'd rather my kid play a sport, hang out with his friends and BE A KID than do 4 hours of homework a night so he can take the honors and AP courses and have a "challenging" schedule.  You know what is challenging?  Being a kid in a society that wants them all to be little grown ups.

Off to tell my kid to load up on Phys ed and Wood Shop....both of which will serve him FAR better in the future than AP Bio, which has no practical use in the real world unless you plan on pursing Biology.  I took AP Bio, I can't figure out how to fix the mail box, wood shop would have been handy right around now.

As I read through this post,  with these off the cuff remarks and back and forth jabs, I thought I was on Facebook.  

If you are in HS, you are a few years away from being a legal adult in this country.  IMO, as a parent, and not as my kid's best friend, I would want to challenge him.  Push him to be better. I wouldn't want him to hang out at the mall or play video games for 4 hours. Can he succeed at the next academic level?  Then take Honors or AP courses, don't settle for an easy grade.  This teaches him work ethic which will be valuable in baseball as well as in life.

If you are okay with your kid aspiring to be a gym teacher or work in construction than so be it, have him load up on Phys Ed and Wood Shop.  It seems you find fixing the mail box more important than understanding the human body, whether it is in an AP or a regular bio class.

Nothing wrong with a gym teacher or to work in construction, but don't expect 6 figure salaries and the same chances in life as others that have applied themselves.  

Wait... Hmm, I just described millennials.  Young adults now a days that feel they are entitled to everything even though they haven't put in any work. Lol.

I think the problem with milennials are the parents.  

Unless your kid was born with God given ability he's not likely to throw 95, earn 6 figures, or get straight A's. An entire generation of parents are saying ANYTHING is possible if you just work at it...it's not. 

There are special people, but not everyone is special.

The 95mph pitch is tied more to physical capability.  Straight A's in HS are very difficult and not likely.  Straight A's don't define a kids trajectory in life, constantly challenging a kid and the kid accepting those challenges will help a kid prepare for his future.  Plenty of B and C students turning into A students when they get to college because they start understanding it's like a job: show up, apply yourself, and manage your time.   Constantly challenging a kid will help him become stronger.  As parent we're trying offer guidance to give our children options when graduate from high school and college.  We're also monitoring our kids to avoid systems overload. 

Anybody is capable of earning 6 figures.  It's about committing to a plan and being prepared when opportunities present themselves, whether it's getting on board a young company, getting experience at whatever company then launching your own business, or putting in the time at one good company.  Making 6 figures is also not the end all, plenty of people handcuffed to organizations where they are miserable everyday but they still cash the check.  

Always learning, continually being prepared so that we're in a strong position, great country we live in, reach for the stars, you never know.