What does your gpa/sat/act have to be to play at a high academic school like harvard, northwestern, duke, etc...
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DLOCK15,
by no measure am I good consult on this subject, but as an athlete and a member of HSBBW I have read a little about this. I think that it could be difficult to put a hard number on it in terms of scores because each high academic school is different. There are a variety of factors when considering a student-athlete for admissions at these schools. First with GPA, it could vary drastically from school to school based on the school's academic curriculum. For Ivy League schools, there is an Academic Index which is often used. I know very little about this, but I know there are people here who know a great deal.
Also, considerations could be made for a particular student-athlete who is very talented but may not have the average scores/grades needed to attend such an academic institution. Obviously, an admissions office would not allow for someone who clearly does not belong. By this statement I mean someone who is not able to handle the rigors of an academic institution such as XYZ School. However, they may allow for a student who is just at or slightly below the cutoff, as he could be providing a benefit to the school as a student-athlete.
To me, an opportunity to play baseball at a selective institution is one in which the student-athlete has to recognize that baseball (in some cases) has provide an avenue for this young man to obtain a great education. One which he may not have been able to receive without baseball.
Hope this helps and that others can chime in! I know there are many discussions on this topic already so you may want to search for those!
Good luck!
by no measure am I good consult on this subject, but as an athlete and a member of HSBBW I have read a little about this. I think that it could be difficult to put a hard number on it in terms of scores because each high academic school is different. There are a variety of factors when considering a student-athlete for admissions at these schools. First with GPA, it could vary drastically from school to school based on the school's academic curriculum. For Ivy League schools, there is an Academic Index which is often used. I know very little about this, but I know there are people here who know a great deal.
Also, considerations could be made for a particular student-athlete who is very talented but may not have the average scores/grades needed to attend such an academic institution. Obviously, an admissions office would not allow for someone who clearly does not belong. By this statement I mean someone who is not able to handle the rigors of an academic institution such as XYZ School. However, they may allow for a student who is just at or slightly below the cutoff, as he could be providing a benefit to the school as a student-athlete.
To me, an opportunity to play baseball at a selective institution is one in which the student-athlete has to recognize that baseball (in some cases) has provide an avenue for this young man to obtain a great education. One which he may not have been able to receive without baseball.
Hope this helps and that others can chime in! I know there are many discussions on this topic already so you may want to search for those!
Good luck!
When my son talked to one of the ivy league schools he was told he needed a 1200 or 1250 (two part) SAT score (can't remember which), some others have told me they were recently quoted 1300 (two part). Stanford was the same.
However if you son wants to be an engineering major and get special enrollment consideration, I doubt that would happen. The coach "getting your son into the school" is not the same as "getting your son in the program/major of his choice".....assuming he a program/major of choice
However if you son wants to be an engineering major and get special enrollment consideration, I doubt that would happen. The coach "getting your son into the school" is not the same as "getting your son in the program/major of his choice".....assuming he a program/major of choice
quote:Also, considerations could be made for a particular student-athlete who is very talented but may not have the average scores/grades needed to attend such an academic institution. Obviously, an admissions office would not allow for someone who clearly does not belong. By this statement I mean someone who is not able to handle the rigors of an academic institution such as XYZ School. However, they may allow for a student who is just at or slightly below the cutoff, as he could be providing a benefit to the school as a student-athlete.
I agree.
While I'm not sure of the exact formula for "Athletic SAT/ACT" for a stud baseball player but I feel sure the fastball rate over 90 and home runs over 10 must factor into the cumulative SAT/ACT number used by coaches and admissions ......
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:quote:Also, considerations could be made for a particular student-athlete who is very talented but may not have the average scores/grades needed to attend such an academic institution. Obviously, an admissions office would not allow for someone who clearly does not belong. By this statement I mean someone who is not able to handle the rigors of an academic institution such as XYZ School. However, they may allow for a student who is just at or slightly below the cutoff, as he could be providing a benefit to the school as a student-athlete.
I agree.
While I'm not sure of the exact formula for "Athletic SAT/ACT" for a stud baseball player but I feel sure the fastball rate over 90 and home runs over 10 must factor into the cumulative SAT/ACT number used by coaches and admissions ......
Fungo
There was definitely an inverse sliding scale ratio in effect when Junior was being recruited and accepted, something along the lines of ERA vs. GPA with MPH as a divisor.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Fungo:quote:Also, considerations could be made for a particular student-athlete who is very talented but may not have the average scores/grades needed to attend such an academic institution. Obviously, an admissions office would not allow for someone who clearly does not belong. By this statement I mean someone who is not able to handle the rigors of an academic institution such as XYZ School. However, they may allow for a student who is just at or slightly below the cutoff, as he could be providing a benefit to the school as a student-athlete.
I agree.
While I'm not sure of the exact formula for "Athletic SAT/ACT" for a stud baseball player but I feel sure the fastball rate over 90 and home runs over 10 must factor into the cumulative SAT/ACT number used by coaches and admissions ......
Fungo
There was definitely an inverse sliding scale ratio in effect when Junior was being recruited and accepted, something along the lines of ERA vs. GPA with MPH as a divisor.
And I might add CPLZ...that YOUR Junior also had the "Potential leader" in his equation as well.
An Interesting twist....
What if your son can make it into the school academically and even get a partial scholarship for his grades / ACT score.
What would be the basball requirement (LHP) to get a combination (Academic / Athletic) scholarship and make the team?
Jr doesn’t have 90+ or hit 10 HR but does have enough stuff to get attention?
In this case academics first, but still considerable athletics…
What if your son can make it into the school academically and even get a partial scholarship for his grades / ACT score.
What would be the basball requirement (LHP) to get a combination (Academic / Athletic) scholarship and make the team?
Jr doesn’t have 90+ or hit 10 HR but does have enough stuff to get attention?
In this case academics first, but still considerable athletics…
Each school is different, but in general around 2,100 on the SAT, in the top 2-4% of your class, north of 4.0 GPA (weighted) while taking large % of AP classes. Harvard/MIT/Cal Tech/Harvey Mudd are specifically tougher than many of the other Ivy's/ high academics. Ivy's are looking for D1 players who are smart. Each school will let you know where you stand and what you need to do to qualify.
If your son can just barely qualify and gets admitted to a top academic school that he wouldn't have been admitted to without baseball you have to ask yourself if he's going to be able to play baseball and keep up in the classroom. It is going to be a whole lot of work for that student.
If you can't compete in the classroom, you won't be able to compete on the field.
My son was recruited by one of the Ivy's; it wasn't till someone told him that whenever he was in the classroom all he would have to do was look at the kid siting in front of him, to the left, to the right and behind him in each class to see a valadictorian from their HS. My son was bright enough to realize; he could get in but would likely struggle to compete (in the classroom).
My son was recruited by one of the Ivy's; it wasn't till someone told him that whenever he was in the classroom all he would have to do was look at the kid siting in front of him, to the left, to the right and behind him in each class to see a valadictorian from their HS. My son was bright enough to realize; he could get in but would likely struggle to compete (in the classroom).
What I find interesting about this discussion is how standards have changed. Sure the Ivy's have always had a high benchmark to get in, but other schools have also raised the bar even though they do not have the same rigorous academics. For instance a coach who is now on staff at his alma mater says he would not have been able to get in the school with their standards today.
Also even kids you would think are a lock to get into any academic school they wanted are rejected. For instance a friends son had a 4.2 with AP and Honors classes, great SAT/ACT scores, played 3 sports, tons of community service, was an Eagle Scout, etc., yet he was turned down by ND.
Supply and demand has made it much more of a hurdle to get in unless you kid is already a superstar.
Also even kids you would think are a lock to get into any academic school they wanted are rejected. For instance a friends son had a 4.2 with AP and Honors classes, great SAT/ACT scores, played 3 sports, tons of community service, was an Eagle Scout, etc., yet he was turned down by ND.
Supply and demand has made it much more of a hurdle to get in unless you kid is already a superstar.
Our conversations have been unweighted 3.5 ** and 1250-1300 for Math and English depending on the institution. There are a handful of schools who don't give exceptions to athletes. Those who do typically don't have an entire roster worth of exemptions.
** The problem with weighted gpa is there isn't a standard. One school might give a .25 bump for an AP course while another might give a 1.0 bump. My son's high school does not weight gpa externally. They only do it internally for class rank.
** The problem with weighted gpa is there isn't a standard. One school might give a .25 bump for an AP course while another might give a 1.0 bump. My son's high school does not weight gpa externally. They only do it internally for class rank.
I think that its very important to have consistently high grades. The schools are a little more forgiving on SAT scores, compared to their overall averages. But they are relatively unforgiving on the grades.
On top of that, you have to be a player that fits into their needs.
On top of that, you have to be a player that fits into their needs.
Vector,
Too bad for your friend's son. A local 2011 graduate from a suburban high school who has been on academic probation and was required to miss a number of basketball games due to grades early in his career was admitted to ND. His final GPA was said to be between 2.0 and 2.5 However, he was a 4 year varsity all everything two time all state football player and Coach Kelly got him admitted.
So much for academic standards. Is that fair?
After watching the High School all star game sponsored by the U.S. Army last week, it is apparent that prestigious academic/football schools routinely sacrifice their academic integrity for talented football players that can barely speak the language. These players are already at a disadvantage in the classroom and if it weren't for their athletic ability
there is not a chance for admission to the school.
It's all about the money.
Too bad for your friend's son. A local 2011 graduate from a suburban high school who has been on academic probation and was required to miss a number of basketball games due to grades early in his career was admitted to ND. His final GPA was said to be between 2.0 and 2.5 However, he was a 4 year varsity all everything two time all state football player and Coach Kelly got him admitted.
So much for academic standards. Is that fair?
After watching the High School all star game sponsored by the U.S. Army last week, it is apparent that prestigious academic/football schools routinely sacrifice their academic integrity for talented football players that can barely speak the language. These players are already at a disadvantage in the classroom and if it weren't for their athletic ability
there is not a chance for admission to the school.
It's all about the money.
My two cents.....I hope this helps DLOCK15.
If you come through the "front door" as a student-only, these schools (Harvard/Duke/Northwestern) are somewhat similiar. You can look up their admissions criteria on collegeboard.com Their acceptance rates are very, very low. I know Harvard is 7-8% overall, but it could be lower or higher depending on the specific college you are applying too within the University.
Now, if you come in the "side door" as a recruited athlete....all bets are off. Duke and Northwestern only have to adhere to D1 NCAA minimum standards. Whether or not they do, is up to the individual school, and specific recruitment situation. They have a lot of latitude is my point. Northwestern and Duke are both members of an elite athletic conference. Just as Proud Dad 24 describes, if the football coach wants you, he can get you in at ND for football.
Harvard is different than Northwestern and Duke in terms of coming in the "side door" or athletic recruiting admittance. Harvard and all Ivys has to adhere to the Ivy conference Academic Index (AI) standard where an athlete can only be one standard deviation less than the entire enrolling class at that school....not much wiggle room there. So, at the minimum it COULD look like this depending on many other factors....1800 SATs, 27 ACT, top 10% of class, 3.5 weighted GPA with a rigorous & numerous AP classes. If you have those numbers, you better be a STUD, too! And....the coach has to push and prod to get his athlete through Admissions who has the final say on everything.
If you come through the "front door" as a student-only, these schools (Harvard/Duke/Northwestern) are somewhat similiar. You can look up their admissions criteria on collegeboard.com Their acceptance rates are very, very low. I know Harvard is 7-8% overall, but it could be lower or higher depending on the specific college you are applying too within the University.
Now, if you come in the "side door" as a recruited athlete....all bets are off. Duke and Northwestern only have to adhere to D1 NCAA minimum standards. Whether or not they do, is up to the individual school, and specific recruitment situation. They have a lot of latitude is my point. Northwestern and Duke are both members of an elite athletic conference. Just as Proud Dad 24 describes, if the football coach wants you, he can get you in at ND for football.
Harvard is different than Northwestern and Duke in terms of coming in the "side door" or athletic recruiting admittance. Harvard and all Ivys has to adhere to the Ivy conference Academic Index (AI) standard where an athlete can only be one standard deviation less than the entire enrolling class at that school....not much wiggle room there. So, at the minimum it COULD look like this depending on many other factors....1800 SATs, 27 ACT, top 10% of class, 3.5 weighted GPA with a rigorous & numerous AP classes. If you have those numbers, you better be a STUD, too! And....the coach has to push and prod to get his athlete through Admissions who has the final say on everything.
If you are talking about minimums, think long and hard about the student/athletes ability to handle the academic end of work at a particular school. Being academically ineligible will not help the baseball team much. With all the travel typically involved, baseball is very difficult to play and maintain grades. Make sure you are aware of this and the academic situation you are looking to enter. It still needs to be the right fit.
PD24,
I agree it is not fair for kids who work their rear end off to get into their dream school, only to be rejected while inferior students get into places like ND.
He is probably better off because even though he will not get a degree from ND, he landed in a decent academic D1 and is also playing baseball. I doubt he would have made the ND team. Funny thing is that he was going to give up baseball to get into his dream school. Knowing the kid and family, it is ND's loss.
Of course the other vexing thing about college admissions is affirmative action. They rarely call it that anymore, instead referring to "diversity goals", but it is the same old discriminatory policy wrapped in a different term.
I certainly think the college should have some flexibility to get certain students in like athletes. However those students should have to meet a certain criteria well above the lowest NCAA standard to get into a "academic university".
I agree it is not fair for kids who work their rear end off to get into their dream school, only to be rejected while inferior students get into places like ND.
He is probably better off because even though he will not get a degree from ND, he landed in a decent academic D1 and is also playing baseball. I doubt he would have made the ND team. Funny thing is that he was going to give up baseball to get into his dream school. Knowing the kid and family, it is ND's loss.
Of course the other vexing thing about college admissions is affirmative action. They rarely call it that anymore, instead referring to "diversity goals", but it is the same old discriminatory policy wrapped in a different term.
I certainly think the college should have some flexibility to get certain students in like athletes. However those students should have to meet a certain criteria well above the lowest NCAA standard to get into a "academic university".
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Fungo:quote:Also, considerations could be made for a particular student-athlete who is very talented but may not have the average scores/grades needed to attend such an academic institution. Obviously, an admissions office would not allow for someone who clearly does not belong. By this statement I mean someone who is not able to handle the rigors of an academic institution such as XYZ School. However, they may allow for a student who is just at or slightly below the cutoff, as he could be providing a benefit to the school as a student-athlete.
I agree.
While I'm not sure of the exact formula for "Athletic SAT/ACT" for a stud baseball player but I feel sure the fastball rate over 90 and home runs over 10 must factor into the cumulative SAT/ACT number used by coaches and admissions ......
Fungo
There was definitely an inverse sliding scale ratio in effect when Junior was being recruited and accepted, something along the lines of ERA vs. GPA with MPH as a divisor.
Agree as well when son was being recruited. Plus 90 was a very big help in getting noticed by high academic schools normally would never be considered. Was told no problem getting into some high academic programs, however, bottom line was that these were not good fits for him.
Vector,
Glad that things worked out for your friend's son.
Glad that things worked out for your friend's son.
Vector,
Wow, I'm surprised to hear that North Dakota is that picky.
Wow, I'm surprised to hear that North Dakota is that picky.
Grades of 4.1 weighted GPA with a 1350 to 1400 SAT or 31/32 ACT and plenty of AP's will put you in the lower/middle of the pack of athletes vying to play for very selective schools such as Ivies, NESCAC, MIT and some Centennial. Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Stanford each have their own requirements but not nearly as stringent. Do not underestimate the number of very bright star athletes.
B.O.,
I am not underestimating the bright athletes that are going to these prestigious schools. However, nobody should underestimate what college coaches will do to build and sustain winning programs. How many times have you seen a high school student/athlete commit to a school on television via a high school all star game? Somehow I doubt many of these commits have a 4.1 GPA/1350 SAT/31 ACT.
I am not underestimating the bright athletes that are going to these prestigious schools. However, nobody should underestimate what college coaches will do to build and sustain winning programs. How many times have you seen a high school student/athlete commit to a school on television via a high school all star game? Somehow I doubt many of these commits have a 4.1 GPA/1350 SAT/31 ACT.
Proud, Those grades that I discussed are for those highly selective schools that I mentioned first (Ivies, NESCAC, etc.). I know that the selective D1 schools that play in major conferences have a lot less stringent requirement. I know a few boys on the Rice team and although at least one of them had an outstanding academic record, the others grades and scores were no where near those discussed. Also it seems as though football is a different animal when discussing entrance requirements.
Some items that are not being stated:
In baseball for sure, and in most sports, college coaches do not want to be recruiting and getting NLI's from players who cannot do the work and stay eligible in the classroom.
Basketball is probably the exception because it is one year and gone for better players.
Schools also don't want to be admitting students/student athletes who are going to impact the APR, fail to matriculate, not be eligible or flunk out.
At Notre Dame for instance, SI did a great article a few years back that ND alums and athletes verify to be true. Physics is a required first year course and must be passed. That requirement has impacted their ability to recruit. As late as Thanksgiving, I talked with 2 very prominent ND alums, one a former QB, and they verified physics is still required.
In baseball especially, the amount of anguish in a coaching staff when a player, especially a key one, does not get the job done in the classroom cannot be underestimated. They carefully plan the college season. To have players not get the job done in the classroom is a source of great frustration.
The idea that baseball coaches are recruiting players where the school and staff doubt or significantly question the ability to do the work is, to a very large extent, being overstated, I would propose.
In baseball for sure, and in most sports, college coaches do not want to be recruiting and getting NLI's from players who cannot do the work and stay eligible in the classroom.
Basketball is probably the exception because it is one year and gone for better players.
Schools also don't want to be admitting students/student athletes who are going to impact the APR, fail to matriculate, not be eligible or flunk out.
At Notre Dame for instance, SI did a great article a few years back that ND alums and athletes verify to be true. Physics is a required first year course and must be passed. That requirement has impacted their ability to recruit. As late as Thanksgiving, I talked with 2 very prominent ND alums, one a former QB, and they verified physics is still required.
In baseball especially, the amount of anguish in a coaching staff when a player, especially a key one, does not get the job done in the classroom cannot be underestimated. They carefully plan the college season. To have players not get the job done in the classroom is a source of great frustration.
The idea that baseball coaches are recruiting players where the school and staff doubt or significantly question the ability to do the work is, to a very large extent, being overstated, I would propose.
Jr was recruited and signed with a great D-1 with high academic standards. He probably would be an example of the type of player that would not have qualified without baseball and the "ERA and 90+" advanatage. He understands that the workload will be challenging and he is up for the challenge, plus if for some reason his ability to play baseball went away, he will have a tremendous education. This sport, and any sport for that matter, can open doors, it is then up to the student/athlete to walk through. No one ever said it would be easy...
what about this--theoretically, a 2012 LHP with a 36 ACT, 2380 SAT, 4.1 GPA, top 8-9% in class, and a 82-85 MPH fastball? is that ivy-worthy?
Grades are definitely as you say Ivy worthy. Couldn't comment on pitching. Since it is not upper 80's it depends on his movement etc. Make sure to get on a good travel team that gets seen and he makes contact with coaches now. Could be a good fit at highly selective D-III's also. We have a few lefties on our team in that range that have had success.
son's been contact with a bunch of them since september, especially yale and princeton. his fastball has a ton of movement, and his travel coaches--who've sent multiple pitchers to D1 schools--say he has one of the best curves they've seen (11-5).
That's great. My son was in the same position. Was recruited by a couple of Ivies but in the end ended up at a NESCAC school. Coach Stuper at Yale is a good guy. Good luck with the process.
what NESCAC? and congrats!
NESCAC is a New England conference of D3 high academic schools that are smaller than the Ivys, but extremely high academic schools. They are all liberal arts and pure sciences, I believe, with no engineering and no business. Williams and Amherst are the top two. Others are Trinity (CT) Bowdoin, Colby, TUfts, etc. You can google it. They are about half the size of the ivys. The best of them have SAT profiles similar to HYP.
I'd say your grades and scores are terrific. I'm assuming many of the courses are advanced honors or AP.
Just make sure you keep up all all your grades. The ivys and nescac type schools are very sensitive to "stumbles" in specific courses that raise questions about the commitment to good grades.
You might be interested in a chart done some years back by the wall street journal that ranked schools by their relative production of students who attended a selection of top med, law and business schools. It will give you a rough frame of reference for some of these smaller schools, but you should read the methods they used to make the list.
http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf
I'd say your grades and scores are terrific. I'm assuming many of the courses are advanced honors or AP.
Just make sure you keep up all all your grades. The ivys and nescac type schools are very sensitive to "stumbles" in specific courses that raise questions about the commitment to good grades.
You might be interested in a chart done some years back by the wall street journal that ranked schools by their relative production of students who attended a selection of top med, law and business schools. It will give you a rough frame of reference for some of these smaller schools, but you should read the methods they used to make the list.
http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf
Princeton brought in one LHP this year. On scout day (end of fall practice) he threw 88-92.
He stirred interest after his sophomore year when he was at 80-81 with similar scores and grades (IVY league schools saw him either at Stanford or Headfirst camps). After his junior year (same camps) he was 84 (Stanford) and 87 (Headfirst).
Keep working; obviously,the faster the better. But you have the grades to get over one hurdle and the velo today to pique their interest. Get to 88 and you really get their interst!
He stirred interest after his sophomore year when he was at 80-81 with similar scores and grades (IVY league schools saw him either at Stanford or Headfirst camps). After his junior year (same camps) he was 84 (Stanford) and 87 (Headfirst).
Keep working; obviously,the faster the better. But you have the grades to get over one hurdle and the velo today to pique their interest. Get to 88 and you really get their interst!
quote:Pedropere stated......NESCAC is a New England conference of D3 high academic schools that are smaller than the Ivys, but extremely high academic schools. They are all liberal arts and pure sciences, I believe, with no engineering and no business. Williams and Amherst are the top two. Others are Trinity (CT) Bowdoin, Colby, TUfts, etc. You can google it. They are about half the size of the ivys. The best of them have SAT profiles similar to HYP.
Tufts has an engineering program.
smithers, He is an Eph. Having fun and right now trying to stay warm.
Also RPI in Troy, NY.Not in NESCAC but a very good school.
oh, no, i know what NESCAC is. i was just wondering what school he was attending.
and, unfortunately, smithers jr. skipped a grade, so he's a year and a half younger than some of his varsity junior-year teammates. it's a shame; he's much more advanced than his 16u teammates, but he's too smart to go back. we're definitely thinking about a post-grad year for him
RPI has a good team and a nice field. I was able to see a game there last year.