Great Article on College Summer Ball Recruiting

Didn't Gibson, a GM for the 2008 Martinsville Mustangs, finish near the bottom of the 14 CPL teams?

Nope...they finished this year right out of the playoffs...and had one of the better records the 2nd half of the season.

I have a son in a DIII school in NC and to tewll you from experience it is very hard for a player not in DI to be able to plain in the CPL...they seem to shy away from anything but D1.

quote:

Originally posted by rlscosta:
I have a son in a DIII school in NC and to tewll you from experience it is very hard for a player not in DI to be able to plain in the CPL...they seem to shy away from anything but D1.

rlscosta - welcome to the hsbbweb!

Does your son play for NC Weslyan by any chance? I noticed that the Fayetteville CPL team had several of their players on their roster. I assume Coach Handlesman has a good relationship with the Weslyan program. JT's son and his teammate are from Lynchburg College and are on the Martinsville club. They both made a name for themselves in the Southern Collegiate League last summer and played the last part of the summer on Martinsville.

He does play for NC Wesleyan. Problem is most of our NCWC roster is from NC and that area of Fayetteville, Clayton, Edenton, Raleigh. We are from Norfolk and he wants to play in the summer and come from for once to be with family. We were looking at possibly the Peninsula Pilots but my son told me he couldn't get them to respond to his reply. The Outer Banks Daredevils are 1 1/2 hours away from where we leave so transportation would suck everyday.

JT's son was a late season call up for Martinsville last year and had a great showing. He's a D-3 player at Lynchburg, so, while tough, can be done if the player works hard enough.

pfbear13,
cool good info. We have a few players who played last season for Edenton, Martinsville, Fayetteville, and Wilson on our roster but again, they live in that area so it's pretty accomodating. We'll contact the Pilots again and see if we can get a response from them.

quote:

We'll contact the Pilots again and see if we can get a response from them.

rl - you might be able to get a response but then the issue is will the coach play him or not? I didn't see (or hear of) any low 80's guys pitching in the CPL this past summer. I think the most important thing for him is to pitch and not what team he is on. Thus, I would try and secure a spot on a local legion team (playing locally seems to be very important here) where you are guaranteed he will PLAY. That is the most important thing in his development is that he plays this summer imho. If you are looking for the best baseball opportunity, you will likely have to expand your geographic horizons. My son is a D1 player, we live in Ohio yet he has played his summers in Virginia and South Carolina. I would have loved for him to play in our backyard but that was not in the cards. We always sought out the best baseball opportunity and let the chips fall where they may. Again, hopefully JT can chime in here because his son did play legion ball as a freshman in Virginia before making it all the way to the CPL as a sophmore last summer.

Very few summer league coaches respond to players directly. Get your coach to recommend your son. It really has nothing to do with the division you play.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Very few summer league coaches respond to players directly. Get your coach to recommend your son. It really has nothing to do with the division you play.

The first two sentences I agree with and the last one I don't. Did you read the article JT posted? The one GM said they only recruit D1 players. I don't think my son's team in Columbia had any D3 players either. I mentioned the Fayettville team because I know they do recuit from Wesleyan.

Most recruiting is done in the fall. I am not trying to be a kill-joy but the chances are slim and none to get placed at this time so a plan B is also in order. If the Virginia team makes an offer then great. If you check out stats from last year's CPL teams, you'll see that many guys hardly played. Getting on the roster is one thing, playing is another.

CD if you go to the CPL site you will see the partial rosters for 09. Several players on teams from other divisions .

We must be speaking Chinese today

Almost every player listed thus far for 2009 in the CPL is a D1 player. Those that are not are D2 players and a few CC's. The CC's guys are often higher profile than the D1 guys as they are positioned there for the draft.

The issue raised in this thread is about D3 players. The only CPL roster I see thus far with D3 guys is the one mentioned in the article and perhaps one or two other rosters with a Wesleyan guy. It matters to most of the teams which division you play. The local teams listed in this thread all have D1 players listed thus far. Not sure why you would say it does not matter when there are only a few exceptions - JT's being one of them.

A better strategy here would be to go after the teams where they know D3 players have been invited in the past regardless of location. Neither Penninsula nor Outerbanks appear to fit that bill imho. Martinsville seems to be a candidate but the D3 players they have signed proved their worth in other leagues last summer before receiving their invitations this fall. People can look at rosters all they want. a) You need an invite and b) you need to play which is the paramount consideration imho.

Great discussion again. We may also go the American Legion way. There is Norfolk Post 60, 204 and 327 that play around our area. I know he'll definetly get innings there and roster has some many D2 players that are sharp.

CD JT's son and a teammate also. The division doesn't matter since players are drafted from all divisions. To me in Chinese that means there are great players in all divisions. More like talent in the eyes of the college coach who places the players. Invited by who ? Freshmen are often placed by their coach before they even play a college game. My point is that there are players from all divisions. I think too many people put imaginary road blocks up.

quote:

To me in Chinese that means there are great players in all divisions.

That is a different subject. I must be speaking English and you French Canadian or vis versa

I don't disagree there are players in each division and not sure what that has to do with this thread. I am trying to give advice based on the parameters outlined in this thread. A D3 guy has a very limited chance to play in the CPL imho but it can be done as JT's son is evidence. Some of the teams in the CPL will not even recruit D3 guys including some of the teams mentioned here. On top of that, a developing freshman who is currently in the low 80's has no shot to actually get on the field imho in the CPL. Look at some of the NC State and Georgia Tech guys on some of those rosters. 6-4 and 225 lbs. Which one is going to play?

When my son was a freshman throwing low 80s he was assigned to the Northwoods team in Madison WI. He turned it down.In his Soph year he had an awfull year in the SCBL for various reasons. The next year he had 4 placements from Florida Instructional league to Hawaii. I was surprised anyone would want him. He turned them all down. He has talked to his teammates who went all over the place. I believe they were placed by their coach. In fact I was told they had a commitment to place so many players on various teams. Anywhere from 1 to 4 players depending on the team. I also know for a fact that some teams have trouble filling there roster spots.
Yes the chances may be limited but they are there if you approach it the right way.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
When my son was a freshman throwing low 80s he was assigned to the Northwoods team in Madison WI. He turned it down.In his Soph year he had an awfull year in the SCBL for various reasons. The next year he had 4 placements from Florida Instructional league to Hawaii. I was surprised anyone would want him. He turned them all down. He has talked to his teammates who went all over the place. I believe they were placed by their coach. In fact I was told they had a commitment to place so many players on various teams. Anywhere from 1 to 4 players depending on the team. I also know for a fact that some teams have trouble filling there roster spots.
Yes the chances may be limited but they are there if you approach it the right way.

BHD - I know you and wonder if you are having a bad day today by trying to be dsagreeable for disagreeability sakes? How does your story in any way help this person get their son into the CPL or any other relevant league for that matter?

For starters, your son and all his teammates were D1 players. Secondly, I don't believe he would have gotten on the field throwing low 80's in the Northwoods League or the CPL for that matter regardless of his D1 status. We don't know for sure because he did not play in either of those leagues and we can disagree on that one but that is my opinion. You said he struggled in the SCL which is not the same caliber as the CPL imho and this is partly what I am basing my opinion on. I also have two years experience with the league and don't recall any player who fits that description. I wish JT would chime in on this thread because he knows both leagues.

Whos having a bad day ?
My advice is different than yours and it was geared to help him take a route that could get him a chance. Yours was to avoid trying and that is not good advice.
My son's experience was not about the caliber of BB played. If you look at his record in his freshman and soph years he pitched against top teams and did well. He had a good outting against Coastal. With 2 out he had runners on 1st and 2nd and your top hitter hit a ball straight at 3rd base. The newly inserted freshmam at 3rd charged the ball and scooped it up and flung it into the outfield instead of taking the force at 3rd. A perfect hit to get the force and out of the inning.
My son's problem was mostly coaching related and continued into his JR season. That is why they have all new coaches. The new P coach seems to be the best one they have had. The P coach in his freshman year also was very good. The problem started at the end of his Soph year. It was a total break down of mechanics . Once I saw him I could see what the problem was and we corrected it. He gave up 1 run in the fall and that was a HR. He threw more innings than anyone else in the WS which I got to see and he was back to his original mechanic. He had gained back the 3-4 mph that he lost and his breaking balls where breaking sharper and later.
CD pitching requires constant monitoring as does hitting. It is even more so than hitting because things can get ungly real quick.
Having been around a MiLB team for years I know what can happen to a pitcher that doesn't have a good P coach.
I am also leary of advice that doesn't offer encouragement. It will in the end be about talent along with some good luck. I tried to advise him to go through the coach which is the normal chanel. I knew lots of players in the CPL.

My son was fortunate to play on a team in the SCBL that pretty much EXCLUSIVE gets the small college guys in the Carolina Chaos. He started slow, as many do in their first taste of summer wood bat ball...but the coach stuck with him. About 1/2-way thru the summer, his bat heated up and he ended up having a fine season...had he been in the CPL or Valley he would have ridden the pine once all the D1 players got there.

His placement with the Mustangs was simply being at the right place at the right time when a need arose...and he was able to carry on his SCBL hitting to the CPL. Again...he would have not gotten a SNIFF had he not experienced success in the lower tier league, being a D3 player. The bias DOES exist...but the small college guy must make the absolute MOST of any opportunity given him.

I will address the other issues posted above later this evening.

BHD,
I think CD is offering advice that is encouraging. Not only is it encouraging, it is very accurate information.
It is very, very tough for a DIII coach to place a freshman pitcher in a league like the CPL. In this case, rls has noted in another thread that his son is in the low 80s and not likely to get many innings for his college team.
That is a very tough/impossible sell to the CPL, Valley, NECBL, etc. My guess is that since the young man is playing for a high profile DIII that does place kids, the coach would place him, if he felt he could and if he felt he would get innings.
Do you have any experience trying to place a DIII pitcher throwing in the low 80's, especially when he isn't getting innings in the regular season? I would bet his college coach does. Your suggestion to work through his coach was all that needed to be said. Suggestions based on what didn't happen with your son seem to have little chance of being helpful.
One of the CPL teams that did sign DIII guys was New Bern. They are not currently in operation. Our son played with and remained friends with their GM. Even in their last full season, they were only taking the top pitcher and top players from top DIII programs.
Certainly it is great to offer advice that is "encouraging." You did that when you proposed they talk to the Coach about getting placed. That was a good place to stop, in my view.

infielddad,
good point. Now I do not want to short change this young men because we are talking about a D3 school, so we are judging talent by the division level. We had offers from three D2 programs to come pitch there. One in NC, one in VA and one in WV. We chose NCWC because, one it was only 2 hours from our house, and two it was a high caliber D3 school...remember they do have 2 national championships. Also, although he is only hiting about 82-83 in the radar gun, he is still getting people out, which as a coach myself is what I am concerned. Too many 90+ guys out there getting ripped and ending up with ERA's of 9.00+.

rls,
You are preaching to the DIII choir here, as CD will tell you. Our son was a DIII who was lucky enough to play in the NECBL for 2 summers.
He is now an assistant head coach/recruiting coordinator at his DIII and is involved in talking with Summer League GM's for placements.
I am familiar with the DIII being attended by your son and know the high caliber of baseball they play.
My view is your son would be best served by talking with the head coach.
If he really wants to be close to home during the Summer, his options would be limited and the Coach will be the best one to provide guidance. To be honest, if your son's coach will not stand up and try and get him placed in the CPL, the odds are really slim, to none. If the Coach does get involved for him, the odds improve. Doing this yourself will be time consuming and, as you are finding thus far, not very rewarding.
When you get into Summer League ball, you find those folks work 10 months for 2 months of baseball so they truly want to win.
If your son is willing to travel, as ours did from CA to Massachusetts and Rhode Island, then the options open considerably for him.

quote:

Originally posted by rlscosta:
Great discussion again. We may also go the American Legion way. There is Norfolk Post 60, 204 and 327 that play around our area. I know he'll definetly get innings there and roster has some many D2 players that are sharp.

rlcosta...there is NOTHING wrong with going that route. After all, it is all about playing time, in my opinion. Is your son going to develop MORE playing his final year of legion...or MAYBE getting playing time on a summer wood bat team? As a freshman onto a team in an outstanding D3 league, you may find his innings might be limited in the Spring. His coach, more than likely, is going to WANT him to get innings in summer ball, and Legion may well offer him a better chance. I would think this would be a question he should ask his coach at NCWC...I have no doubt they will lead him in the right direction. Once your son establishes a track record there (I assume he is a freshman since he can play one more year of legion)...THEN it will easier to place him as a D3 player.

There is also another league, the CVSCL that has expanded over the past couple of years...that might be an option. I would place it maybe a notch below the SCBL...but it might be a way for your son to "cut his teeth."

In short, I think summer ball placement is no different than any other placement...whether it be looking for a travel team...or looking at colleges...
...IT IS ALL ABOUT "FIT!"

Infielddad offers some sage advice, BTW...and is one of the great resources on the HSBWW...especially in areas of what it is like for a small college player.

from a different view.
your son may want to look at a men's league. i think playing legion would be a step backward,in our part of the world anyway. what i mean is, he will never pitch to high school kids again. or face them as a hitter.some/most men's leagues are full of ex college players, and decent pitching. but i'm not familiar with your area.

that said legion ball is better than no ball.

INF I mentioned my son because he sat at around 82-83 like the posters son. He was picked to start the opening game by his summer league against the championship team the year before. The coaches loved him and I am sure were scratching their heads with his poor performance.
He had not really wanted to play summer league and wanted to enjoy his summers. He has played BB all year since he was 15. He was pushed into covering for his roommate who was injured. I just had super with him and I asked him about his summer league experience. He said the level was no where near the college level BB. He also said their was no P coach that he could turn to and when he called his college P coach he had quit. The second one in 2 years to quit. He needed some mechanics adjustments.
As far as his performance in college he was in trhe top 4 his freshman year and 5 in his soph year. In his soph year he had an era around 2 and an OBA below 2 for the 1st 33 innings and was 2nd in stats. What ever changes occured must have occured near the end of the last season games. Prior to the last 3 he had given up 2 doubles and 1 HR in 33 innings. He had pitched against some very strong teams like C of Charleston, USC, Florida state and many others. when I realized what was wrong I met with some resistence from him in making the adjustments until I got him home in the summer. It took 5 mins to correct what was wrong. He could have pitched in any summer league and been very successful. He has pitched aginst MiLB players and college players in the senior leagues here in Ontario since he was 16.
This posters son may be a great pitcher who is developing and where better than the summer leagues. He would be facing lots of inexperienced batters who are themselves unproven players. Many of these players have never played with wood. They tend to play too deep which was noted by my son and noone corrected them. There was also little time spent on coaching.

quote:

I just had super with him and I asked him about his summer league experience. He said the level was no where near the college level BB.

BHD,
I am not sure why you keep trying to explain what has happened with your son and which 3B and which coach didn't do their job. I don't think it helps this thread and I don't believe it adds credibility to your posts. This is purely a personal view. I recognize you are very proud of your son. If you remember some play in a past game against Coastal, what he is doing and how he is doing surely makes an impact for you. As his Dad, it is clear you are very proud of him I very much respect that. I just don't feel it helps to explain things in terms of other players and coaches not doing their job behind him.
What I will say is I have never talked with a college player or college coach who felt the competition in Summer Wood Bat leagues wasn't near the level of college baseball. I have never heard that, from anyone. I would be quite surprised if that was not a minority view, and a very small minority, at that.

quote:

He had a good outting against Coastal. With 2 out he had runners on 1st and 2nd and your top hitter hit a ball straight at 3rd base. The newly inserted freshmam at 3rd charged the ball and scooped it up and flung it into the outfield instead of taking the force at 3rd. A perfect hit to get the force and out of the inning.

I really fail to see what the above has to do with the article or topic.

Nonetheless, good stuff, JT.

quote:

What I will say is I have never talked with a college player or college coach who felt the competition in Summer Wood Bat leagues wasn't near the level of college baseball. I have never heard that, from anyone. I would be quite surprised if that was not a minority view, and a very small minority, at that.

I'll go one better. I think the talent level goes up in the summer time. Roster space is limited for these summer leagues. Our experience is that velocity goes up and batting averages go significantly down in the summer. Yes, wood bats play a role but the quality of pitching seems to go way up in the summer. There is a non-chalantness about summer league sometimes where the intensity might not always measure up to a hard-fought college game. The talent level is very good however. As with any level of baseball, there are guys who are in these leagues who should not be there and guys on the outisde looking in who should. All that said, find a team where he can play.

Clevelanddad is very right. A different way to see things

TPM et all that blurb has to do with the comments about my son's talent level. Eg . would be sitting on the bench in Northwoods league. Then why did his coach want to send him there ? It was because he wanted to give him some innings.
INF it has nothing to do with being a proud Dad. I know his weakness and one is lack of BB ambition. He works harder than most but he really only wanted to play D1 college BB. He never wanted to play summer league. he preferred to play SR ball here which he did in his freshman year. He could relax and enjoy his summer. He has put BB in its proper perspective in my mind.

There are many reasons a player attends D3 other than baseball fit. Academic reasons, legacy, religious, etc.

In NEO, we have a D3 pitcher who threw 90 plus with a nice hammer as a HS senior and was heavily recruited. His first summer was in Alaska, and his second summer at the Cape. He is a junior currently, and will probably get drafted.

Some summer GM's might dismiss a player based on division level, many try to get the best talent regardless.

Your college coach(or area scouts) has to believe in the player and his abilities to seek an assignment.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM et all that blurb has to do with the comments about my son's talent level. Eg . would be sitting on the bench in Northwoods league. Then why did his coach want to send him there ? It was because he wanted to give him some innings.
INF it has nothing to do with being a proud Dad. I know his weakness and one is lack of BB ambition. He works harder than most but he really only wanted to play D1 college BB. He never wanted to play summer league. he preferred to play SR ball here which he did in his freshman year. He could relax and enjoy his summer. He has put BB in its proper perspective in my mind.

BHD,
I have two thoughts that immediately come to mind:
If your son really didn't have a desire to play/compete in Summer Wood Bat leagues, and did not as a result, I question if you can offer valid information to parents and players who do want to play and compete and are looking for solid information that will help them?
JT started this thread because of a really great article on how GM's look at college players at different levels in filling their rosters. The article is indeed reality. There are spots for DIII,s but not as many as we might hope.
This is the reality that rls and his son need to appreciate, in my view and I think they do from the way rls has responded. I hope his coach can get him placed where he can pitch and have a great summer, but it might not happen.
Second, I just don't feel it is very attractive to suggest that the 3B at Charleston Southern, or their coaching staff, or their former pitching coach, or anyone else are the ones responsible for whatever results have occurred during your son's college career. That is the way I have read your posts and, for me, it just isn't helpful.

Inf I know exactly how you react to my posts. You have done so ever since I have known you.
I( have never tried to be attractive to you or anyone else.
I gave my opinion based on the 30 odd players I know and talk to who have played summer league.
I alao don't see you sticking up for me when someone attacks my son and wisely or unwisely ,I defend him . I get attacked for talking chinese , French Canadian and being diagreeable. Personally I think you need to adjust your attitude.
My post had validity yours smacks of personal attack.
My son's career was very good until last year and hopefully the new coaches will give the team the needed direction. The college has taken a new approach to the BB team with added finacial commitment. There are some very talented players on that team and 3 of their freshmen made the freshman 1st team.
the other point is the player quit half way through the year last year.
Now why do I post these things. I didn't identify the player and I think it is important to see the other side of BB at the college level. I remember when I brought up over recruiting and no one wanted to hear it. I also brought it up on a Canadian site and they all couldn't believe it.
So of course you think it is sour grapes. No my son made the rosters and didn't expect to pitch much. He did very well except in 1 game against Miss state and it was all on him. Half his ERs for the season in 1 inning. He still was 4th overall in stats out of 12 pitchers.
I mention 2 errors in extending game stats to the season stats. I loved it it caused a lot of negative **** too. Well they fixed it or at least 1 error of the 2 with out me complaining. So his era is still a little high but no big deal. I posted it here because I thought the automatic score keeping would be accurate. It was just an interest in understanding what happened. Life goes on.
So INF why don't you re read the posts and look at it from my point of view. I guess that won't happen anytime soon.
You can always make nasty remarks if you are bent on it.
The reality is you are discouraging him from even trying.

BHD,
I have never read a post where your son has been attacked. If I had read such a post, I would have responded in support of your son, as I have done whenever I have read negative comments about a player below the MLB level.
That is why I disagree with your posting about the 3B on his team making an error. It is why I am posting about the criticism of the coaching staff/former staff. I just don't believe in it.
Any player at the collegiate level is a better player than I ever was. Every collegiate player has had days when they could do no wrong. They had days they could do nothing right.
They were putting in the effort on each day.
I just don't believe in placing blame in the game of baseball when it is played below the MLB level.
Sorry if you consider this "nasty." I don't believe it is.

INF I always try to bring a different perspective to the board.
Many of the perceived opinions are not always born out in reality. I have followed some 400-500 players over the last few years and talk to at least 100 on a regular basis. It is important that people understand that if they don't try they won't succeed. It is also important that they see all aspects of the issues so they can decide what is the best way to do things. I expect differeing opinions and love to hear them.
I felt CDs remarks were off base and I have never attacked his son or anyones son. I know my son's abilities and short commings.
CD disagreed with my last statement which was fine but I stand by it. I didn't infer that there was a big chance but their was a chance . Coaches say a lot of things and maybe some teams care about division so you knock on doors until you find a team that doesn't care. The rosters show that some teams look at talent and maybe a D111 coach has a tougher sell but as you know there are very talented players in D111. A smart coach shouldn't make blanket statements. If a D111 coach wants to place a player he should consider that player.

I usually don't place blame unless it is warranted. I saw great pitchers tank during my son's soph year. The head coach had a talent for recruiting but he had problems with delagating to the rest of the staff. At the end of the season last year my son was the only one of the 1st six players interviewed who said he would come back. I felt sorry for the coach but it was crucial he either became a recruiter or left. I knew he was going at the end of my son's soph year and I have never talked about it until now. I have friends at D1 who have had their coaches replaced 2 times in 4 years. Each set of coaches with their views. One was told to get 3 new roommates when the new coaches arrived. I think it is important for people to understand these things

quote:

Coaches say a lot of things and maybe some teams care about division so you knock on doors until you find a team that doesn't care. The rosters show that some teams look at talent and maybe a D111 coach has a tougher sell but as you know there are very talented players in D111. A smart coach shouldn't make blanket statements. If a D111 coach wants to place a player he should consider that.

BHD, thanks for your post. These comments I can especially support. I expect CD can also.
Have a wonderful Holiday and enjoy your time with your son.

You have a good one too.

Are any of you familiar with the Tidewater Summer Developmental League?

Not wanting to play summer baseball, sends a red flag.

A red flag is noted by many.