From ESPN today...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...l-flaw-espn-magazine
Also, be sure to click the sub-story "throwdown" that does a side-by-side analysis of Maddux and Strasburg.
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Thanks for sharing
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:
From ESPN today...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...l-flaw-espn-magazine
Also, be sure to click the sub-story "throwdown" that does a side-by-side analysis of Maddux and Strasburg.
Thanks for the link.
Important to keep in mind that Strasburg threw a lot in college (lsat few years especially).
Put all of that stuff together and it could add to disaster!
ASMI did a study that showed that the lowest overall combined loads on the shoulder and elbow come when the forearm is at about 50 degrees above horizontal at initial footstrike. The loads tended to increase although not in the same ways for the elbow and the shoulder as one went away from that position. However, anywhere from horizontal to vertical at initial foot strike was considered acceptable. Strasburg fell within the acceptable range. Lincecum doesn't. He's below horizontal at initial foot strike.
There seems to be a revisionist attempt by a lot of people who are trying to say that Strasburg has bad mechanics now that he's had problems.
There also seems to be a desire to paint Ryan and Maddux as having perfect mechanics. Ryan did have calcium deposits removed from his elbow and often pitched through shoulder and elbow pain. He had a mixture of good mechanics and great genetics but obviously there was something in his mechanics that kept him from ever having the control that would have allowed him to be a really consistent pitcher.
Maddux was not a soft tosser in his early years but was also never a flamethrower and he ended his career throwing pretty softly. His end of career mechanics were designed to help his control and not his velocity so I don't think they can be considered "perfect" for a young pitcher. I would certainly recommend them for any pitcher who has had a successful major league career and is facing diminished velocity.
I've looked at the very high frame rate clips posted on youtube by laflippin and that is probably the best source available for comparing pitchers mechanics. My impression is that most hard throwing major league pitchers are somewhere between horizontal and the 50ish degrees that ASMI noted. My guess is that the ones who are down near horizontal are there because that is what works for them and going closer to 50 degrees would result in lost velocity with the same effort.
It is just anecdotal but my son tended to be close to vertical at foot strike. His highest velocities came when he got to about 45 degrees above horizontal. He was a counter rotater and that tended to result in being a bit more vertical at inital foot strike so being horizontal probably wasn't a realistic option for him without some major changes.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of people trying to make a "biomechanics" buck out of Strasburg's injury just like a lot of people were trying to make a buck out of teaching his mechanics pre-injury. If Strasburg has a few successful years with mechanics that haven't changed we'll see articles about his "perfect" mechanics again.
We saw a lot of articles about how wonderful Lincecum's mechanics are. Someday, if he comes down with a serious arm injury we'll hear how the same mechanics that he needs to be the pitcher he is led to his "downfall" and people will be trying to make a buck off it.
Anybody who throws over 80 mph is at some risk and the harder and more you throw the more the risk regardless of mechanics. Nolan Ryan beat the odds. A whole lot more pitchers didn't.
Without looking I'll guess that Jaime Moyer has what the people who wrote that article would consider "perfect" mechanics. He never threw particularly hard but eventually he got to the age where his body could no longer repair the damage from a major league season well enough to keep him from Tommy John surgery.
Mechanics are really a minor player compared to overuse and genetics, but that isn't going to sell to people who want to hear that there's a magic mechanics bullet out there.
You take whoever you want and train them perfectly for as long as you want and I'll take Usain Bolt in a 100m race.
I'll also take Strasburg for the next several years because having just come off Tommy John surgery he's unlikely to need anything more than minor touch up work for quite a while.
There seems to be a revisionist attempt by a lot of people who are trying to say that Strasburg has bad mechanics now that he's had problems.
There also seems to be a desire to paint Ryan and Maddux as having perfect mechanics. Ryan did have calcium deposits removed from his elbow and often pitched through shoulder and elbow pain. He had a mixture of good mechanics and great genetics but obviously there was something in his mechanics that kept him from ever having the control that would have allowed him to be a really consistent pitcher.
Maddux was not a soft tosser in his early years but was also never a flamethrower and he ended his career throwing pretty softly. His end of career mechanics were designed to help his control and not his velocity so I don't think they can be considered "perfect" for a young pitcher. I would certainly recommend them for any pitcher who has had a successful major league career and is facing diminished velocity.
I've looked at the very high frame rate clips posted on youtube by laflippin and that is probably the best source available for comparing pitchers mechanics. My impression is that most hard throwing major league pitchers are somewhere between horizontal and the 50ish degrees that ASMI noted. My guess is that the ones who are down near horizontal are there because that is what works for them and going closer to 50 degrees would result in lost velocity with the same effort.
It is just anecdotal but my son tended to be close to vertical at foot strike. His highest velocities came when he got to about 45 degrees above horizontal. He was a counter rotater and that tended to result in being a bit more vertical at inital foot strike so being horizontal probably wasn't a realistic option for him without some major changes.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of people trying to make a "biomechanics" buck out of Strasburg's injury just like a lot of people were trying to make a buck out of teaching his mechanics pre-injury. If Strasburg has a few successful years with mechanics that haven't changed we'll see articles about his "perfect" mechanics again.
We saw a lot of articles about how wonderful Lincecum's mechanics are. Someday, if he comes down with a serious arm injury we'll hear how the same mechanics that he needs to be the pitcher he is led to his "downfall" and people will be trying to make a buck off it.
Anybody who throws over 80 mph is at some risk and the harder and more you throw the more the risk regardless of mechanics. Nolan Ryan beat the odds. A whole lot more pitchers didn't.
Without looking I'll guess that Jaime Moyer has what the people who wrote that article would consider "perfect" mechanics. He never threw particularly hard but eventually he got to the age where his body could no longer repair the damage from a major league season well enough to keep him from Tommy John surgery.
Mechanics are really a minor player compared to overuse and genetics, but that isn't going to sell to people who want to hear that there's a magic mechanics bullet out there.
You take whoever you want and train them perfectly for as long as you want and I'll take Usain Bolt in a 100m race.
I'll also take Strasburg for the next several years because having just come off Tommy John surgery he's unlikely to need anything more than minor touch up work for quite a while.
An unidentified underground baseball counterintelligence organization recently confiscated and deciphered the following message written in very old English. It is thought to be of great interest to an obscure group of unidentified baseball scholars. Since we don’t know who they really are, we are releasing this message to the general public in the event that the reader happens to be such an obscure scholar. Caution: Much has been lost in translation.
Urgent: Send more goats!!
Directions: Please play the below video while reading for added effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...p&v=ulOyin9i4JM&NR=1
Attention his Royal Highness, Inquisitors, and fellow Crusaders,
There is great unrest here in the north and it is rapidly spreading throughout the land. A recent galloping poll among the villages indicates that shooting arrows at the inverted W is no longer having the desired effect. For some time now it has been rumored that the Duke of Strasburg is not a true invert, and the following top-secret video has been stolen and released over the Internet causing an enormous panic.
Upon closer inspection it has also been revealed that other distinguished members of The Great Hall use a somewhat inverted W, and had long, nearly injury free careers…. hurlers such as the late Earl of Feller and the Honorable Don of the Drysdale.
The Don of Sutton even used an elbow raising technique far more pronounced than the Duke of Strasburg without any apparent ill effects on his timing or durability.
Even the recently inducted Baron B Blyleven appears somewhat suspect and nobody threw more curveballs than he did…again, no early career ending effects.
Furthermore, it has been noted that most of the hardest hurlers in the surrounding villages use techniques similar to the Duke of Strasburg, but are unwilling to change fearing a loss in the velocity required to achieve nobility, knighthood, and a chance at a better life.
Both skinny and rotund alike no less! Just look at Sir Sale and the Baron von Broxton!
The recently retired Von Wagner, Sir Capps and Sir Hanrahan appear to typify what we see among many of our most promising future knights in training. Surely the hundreds of self taught hurlers who have developed these high velocity techniques out of the desire to throw hard cannot be expected to change now.
With the majority of villagers now questioning the inherent evil contained in the inverted W’s, inverted L’s and the like, may I suggest we drop the word “inverted” entirely and go with something upward…. say the “Uppity L”.
As always we will correlate some aspect of mechanics with arm injury. In this instance the arm in an upright L position at foot plant will be the culprit. It shouldn’t be hard to find a larger number of famous hurlers who use this technique while being injured. For starters I’ve heard the pirate Blackbeard Wilson has recently injured his elbow for a second time using this technique.
What is most needed however is to convince the villagers that even the greatest hurlers have been victimized by the evilness of the uppity L.
For example, the great K-king of Ryan finally succumbed to a UCL tear in his elbow after being plagued by bone chips early on and the magnificent Matador Martinez was often beset with shoulder problems ending in surgery while using the dreaded L.
Prince Rivera had surgery early in his career (elbow?) and several years ago had shoulder surgery in the off-season. Even the King of Clemens had the great Doctor Andrews perform the honors on his shoulder right after leaving the college of Texas. And what about the astonishing Earl of Koufax? Getting to the L at footplant surely destroyed his elbow, eh?
We’ve dealt with such uprisings successfully many times in the past. The goats of wrist curling, arm hooking, heel landing, rushing, anti-draggers, pro-draggers, have all had their days of darkness and received a good whipping for ruining arms. It matters little what we decide is the real source of evil so long as we can convince a majority. Just tell the villagers often enough and they will begin to believe it. Of course the L will become less despicable with time but by then we will have found a new culprit for our earthly plight.
Be warned however, with nothing to blame for these never-ending tragic injuries I fear a loss of confidence in our great national pastime. Without the entertainment the games provide the occasional riot will soon be of such frequency that the entire kingdom will be threatened.
The circuses must continue on schedule at all costs, thus it’s imperative that you SEND MORE GOATS! The village I’m visiting has mostly inverted W’s, an old hooker and a dragger with his back hoof nailed to the ground. So cruel! His sister is a cute little anti – dragger with her foot hovering over a bucket…wasn’t that a 70’s thing? How barbaric!
Anyhow, we need an entirely new herd of goats here ASAP to brand with uppity L’s.
After all, one can never have too many goats… and for those especially frustrated by what life as a pitcher has to offer we have designed a new and improved bow and arrow set!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...p&v=ulOyin9i4JM&NR=1
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
LONG LIVE BASEBALL!
Your loyal Crusader in all things propaganda,
H
Urgent: Send more goats!!
Directions: Please play the below video while reading for added effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...p&v=ulOyin9i4JM&NR=1
Attention his Royal Highness, Inquisitors, and fellow Crusaders,
There is great unrest here in the north and it is rapidly spreading throughout the land. A recent galloping poll among the villages indicates that shooting arrows at the inverted W is no longer having the desired effect. For some time now it has been rumored that the Duke of Strasburg is not a true invert, and the following top-secret video has been stolen and released over the Internet causing an enormous panic.
Upon closer inspection it has also been revealed that other distinguished members of The Great Hall use a somewhat inverted W, and had long, nearly injury free careers…. hurlers such as the late Earl of Feller and the Honorable Don of the Drysdale.
The Don of Sutton even used an elbow raising technique far more pronounced than the Duke of Strasburg without any apparent ill effects on his timing or durability.
Even the recently inducted Baron B Blyleven appears somewhat suspect and nobody threw more curveballs than he did…again, no early career ending effects.
Furthermore, it has been noted that most of the hardest hurlers in the surrounding villages use techniques similar to the Duke of Strasburg, but are unwilling to change fearing a loss in the velocity required to achieve nobility, knighthood, and a chance at a better life.
Both skinny and rotund alike no less! Just look at Sir Sale and the Baron von Broxton!
The recently retired Von Wagner, Sir Capps and Sir Hanrahan appear to typify what we see among many of our most promising future knights in training. Surely the hundreds of self taught hurlers who have developed these high velocity techniques out of the desire to throw hard cannot be expected to change now.
With the majority of villagers now questioning the inherent evil contained in the inverted W’s, inverted L’s and the like, may I suggest we drop the word “inverted” entirely and go with something upward…. say the “Uppity L”.
As always we will correlate some aspect of mechanics with arm injury. In this instance the arm in an upright L position at foot plant will be the culprit. It shouldn’t be hard to find a larger number of famous hurlers who use this technique while being injured. For starters I’ve heard the pirate Blackbeard Wilson has recently injured his elbow for a second time using this technique.
What is most needed however is to convince the villagers that even the greatest hurlers have been victimized by the evilness of the uppity L.
For example, the great K-king of Ryan finally succumbed to a UCL tear in his elbow after being plagued by bone chips early on and the magnificent Matador Martinez was often beset with shoulder problems ending in surgery while using the dreaded L.
Prince Rivera had surgery early in his career (elbow?) and several years ago had shoulder surgery in the off-season. Even the King of Clemens had the great Doctor Andrews perform the honors on his shoulder right after leaving the college of Texas. And what about the astonishing Earl of Koufax? Getting to the L at footplant surely destroyed his elbow, eh?
We’ve dealt with such uprisings successfully many times in the past. The goats of wrist curling, arm hooking, heel landing, rushing, anti-draggers, pro-draggers, have all had their days of darkness and received a good whipping for ruining arms. It matters little what we decide is the real source of evil so long as we can convince a majority. Just tell the villagers often enough and they will begin to believe it. Of course the L will become less despicable with time but by then we will have found a new culprit for our earthly plight.
Be warned however, with nothing to blame for these never-ending tragic injuries I fear a loss of confidence in our great national pastime. Without the entertainment the games provide the occasional riot will soon be of such frequency that the entire kingdom will be threatened.
The circuses must continue on schedule at all costs, thus it’s imperative that you SEND MORE GOATS! The village I’m visiting has mostly inverted W’s, an old hooker and a dragger with his back hoof nailed to the ground. So cruel! His sister is a cute little anti – dragger with her foot hovering over a bucket…wasn’t that a 70’s thing? How barbaric!
Anyhow, we need an entirely new herd of goats here ASAP to brand with uppity L’s.
After all, one can never have too many goats… and for those especially frustrated by what life as a pitcher has to offer we have designed a new and improved bow and arrow set!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...p&v=ulOyin9i4JM&NR=1
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
LONG LIVE BASEBALL!
Your loyal Crusader in all things propaganda,
H
Lord TG, your scribes have been very busy. Thank you for regaling us with these fine tales.
You've had your merry bit of fun, but it's time for you to return to your dungeon, with the rest of the heretics.
Your quest is for naught as the Grand Inquisitor shall bring many herds of goats from the high mountains and valleys throughout the kingdom.
You've had your merry bit of fun, but it's time for you to return to your dungeon, with the rest of the heretics.
Your quest is for naught as the Grand Inquisitor shall bring many herds of goats from the high mountains and valleys throughout the kingdom.
TG2,
That is a masterpiece.
That is a masterpiece.
Thanks. Outstanding work.
TG2,
Brilliant. But you've admitted to visiting an old hooker, so...
I wonder if the chieftain of the clan O'L will attempt to refute the irrefutable with minutiae or simply continue on as before to trumpet the value of the L because it brings in wealth and notoriety to the chieftain of the clan O'L? The chief of clan O'L has claimed that he was consulted at length for the article.
----------------------------------------------------
Late breaking response from the chieftain of clan O'L (I posted a link to this on a site he's found an audience on) -
Far be it from me to predict how the chieftain will react.
BTW, it took some serious searching along with a strong effort at being closed minded but I was able to find one or two sentences from TG2's post that when taken out of context did not address injury implications. Then again maybe the chief of clan O'L was referring to the goat clip?
Brilliant. But you've admitted to visiting an old hooker, so...
I wonder if the chieftain of the clan O'L will attempt to refute the irrefutable with minutiae or simply continue on as before to trumpet the value of the L because it brings in wealth and notoriety to the chieftain of the clan O'L? The chief of clan O'L has claimed that he was consulted at length for the article.
----------------------------------------------------
Late breaking response from the chieftain of clan O'L (I posted a link to this on a site he's found an audience on) -
quote:Standard, minimally-reasoned nonsense that ignores injury implications.
Far be it from me to predict how the chieftain will react.
BTW, it took some serious searching along with a strong effort at being closed minded but I was able to find one or two sentences from TG2's post that when taken out of context did not address injury implications. Then again maybe the chief of clan O'L was referring to the goat clip?
Ah Ha…. more than one humorist in residence I see…thanks for the interest and all the kind words.
CADad:
Uh Oh…. clan O’L and fellow crusaders in a nearby village? Thanks for the warning as I’m on my horse as we speak…what village might that be?
A link will do
quote:Late breaking response from the chieftain of clan O'L (I posted a link to this on a site he's found an audience on) -
CADad:
Uh Oh…. clan O’L and fellow crusaders in a nearby village? Thanks for the warning as I’m on my horse as we speak…what village might that be?
A link will do
The underground baseball counter intelligence agency has intercepted the following letter sent from The Grand Inquisitor at the Ministry of Truth.
EMERGENCEY ACTION REQUIRED: Delete all videos immediately
Fellow Inquisitors and crusaders for the creation of truth,
Due to recent developments we are requesting you delete all existing video clips from your files. Last months leaflet condemning the inverted W clearly illustrates how persuasive using photos and simple drawings can be. Video has proven to be counter-productive as it often eliminates the need for our interpretative assistance in the creation of truth.
All future sessions of persuasion will consist mostly of photos with an occasional ministry-approved video.
The ministry will also be adopting a new motto, “PICTURES NEVER LIE”. It will be inscribed above the doorway of our newly renovated headquarters.
The ministry has been reviewing photos of Sir Phillip Humber the pitcher who recently threw a perfect game after recovering from TJ surgery and we have in our procession many photos, which support our recently revised position that the L is the cause of arm injuries.
We have also found some rare photos that mistakenly appear to show Sir Humber at foot plant with his arm nearly horizontal. Needless to say we are in the process of eliminating these photos and should you find any in circulation notify the authorities at The Ministry Of Truth and destroy them immediately.
Finally our apologies if this is getting a bit confusing, but realize that confusion is one of our greatest allies. Just keep repeating “DEATH TO THE L” and everything will be OK. Good news… many more goats are on the way! The Ministry Of Breeding is cloning at a record pace. Below is a recent photo of the little devils!
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
And don’t forget our new motto
PICTURES NEVER LIE
Many happy conversions,
Grand Inquisitor H
EMERGENCEY ACTION REQUIRED: Delete all videos immediately
Fellow Inquisitors and crusaders for the creation of truth,
Due to recent developments we are requesting you delete all existing video clips from your files. Last months leaflet condemning the inverted W clearly illustrates how persuasive using photos and simple drawings can be. Video has proven to be counter-productive as it often eliminates the need for our interpretative assistance in the creation of truth.
All future sessions of persuasion will consist mostly of photos with an occasional ministry-approved video.
The ministry will also be adopting a new motto, “PICTURES NEVER LIE”. It will be inscribed above the doorway of our newly renovated headquarters.
The ministry has been reviewing photos of Sir Phillip Humber the pitcher who recently threw a perfect game after recovering from TJ surgery and we have in our procession many photos, which support our recently revised position that the L is the cause of arm injuries.
We have also found some rare photos that mistakenly appear to show Sir Humber at foot plant with his arm nearly horizontal. Needless to say we are in the process of eliminating these photos and should you find any in circulation notify the authorities at The Ministry Of Truth and destroy them immediately.
Finally our apologies if this is getting a bit confusing, but realize that confusion is one of our greatest allies. Just keep repeating “DEATH TO THE L” and everything will be OK. Good news… many more goats are on the way! The Ministry Of Breeding is cloning at a record pace. Below is a recent photo of the little devils!
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
DEATH TO THE L!
And don’t forget our new motto
PICTURES NEVER LIE
Many happy conversions,
Grand Inquisitor H
Baaaahhhhhddd luck for the L
How do I "don't do" the L? I need some coaching..please help me to Don't do...
wait..wait...hold on....I think all I gotta do is don't do, but what do I do when I don't do?
Where is the "bright one"..."the looker at pictures"..HE can tell me how to don't do....Can't he?
How do I "don't do" the L? I need some coaching..please help me to Don't do...
wait..wait...hold on....I think all I gotta do is don't do, but what do I do when I don't do?
Where is the "bright one"..."the looker at pictures"..HE can tell me how to don't do....Can't he?
TG2,
Tim the Enchanter would approve, but he has been banned for being a heretic.
Walk carefully my friend, but be strong knowing he has your back.
Sincerely,
Friends of Tim.
Tim the Enchanter would approve, but he has been banned for being a heretic.
Walk carefully my friend, but be strong knowing he has your back.
Sincerely,
Friends of Tim.
