Greyshirting

A friend's son was offered a "grey shirt"; he was a highly recruited D-1 QB prospect and a draftable RHP. Some schools said he could go ahead, get drafted, try rookie ball and if it didn't work out, they'd give him a football scholarship. Naturally, it's non-binding, just an **** representation. He was drafted in 4th round, signed and is doing well. No football.

Well, don't take this as gospel because I am not 100% positive of all the ramifications ...

My understanding that with greyshirt as opposed to redshirt, the student takes less than 12 hours per semester/qtr, thus the student is not classified as a full time enrollee. The NCAA 5 year clock does not start until one is enrolled as a fulltime student taking at least 12 hrs/semester. Note, the student cannot enroll as a fulltime student, and then drop classes to make oneself a partime student. The clock starts ticking the moment you are enrolled fulltime.

We sort of looked into this when my son was considering various possibilities. I found that coaches were not very familiar with the concept.Ultimately, we decided that fulltime enrollment was his best recourse.

Of course the main (and perhaps only ) advantage to such an approach would be to delay the time when the 5 year clock starts ticking. Although in thinking about it, there could also be some benefit to a student who perhaps needed some remedial academic work to get up to a minimum standard where a fulltime academic load would be manageable.

If someone has a different understanding of the term, please speak up.

For the most part, it doesn't have a practical application in baseball.

The big advantage to football is, by doing this in the fall and not enrolling full-time (or even at all) until the second semester, it he gets the benefit of a spring practice before his NCAA clock really begins. And it is not without significant risks in terms of scholarship commitment.

Unless you can find a coach that would be willing to allow your son to work with his baseball team in the fall (despite his enrollment status), it does no good for baseball players. The season is in the spring, so your clock would start then anyway.

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MontanaDad...That is pretty well my understanding as well.

quote:

don't take this as gospel because I am not 100% positive of all the ramifications ...

That's exactly where I am at on this looking for info. I am hearing about the greyshirt process so I would to be as up on it as possible.

OldVaman...I am not so sure greyshirting has no application in baseball...The people that I am talking to are saying that it might be beneficial for two types of players:

1. Young high school graduates. It gives players who are young (graduate high school at 17)and not getting scholarhsip a chance to gain much needed physical and emotional maturity to compete with the older players. For a pitcher this might mean additional velocity.

2. Marginal Students. The 20 units recorded at a JC over the course of a grey shirt year would allow a marginal student to go into a college program and hit the gound running academically.

The negatives I am told are that a player loses a year of play, would have to be self directed to remain an athlete. With all the baseball academies, pithcing and hitting coaches out there it would appear to be expensive but not impossible.

Anyone else? Any more info? Opinions?

quote:

The negatives I am told are that a player loses a year of play, would have to be self directed to remain an athlete. With all the baseball academies, pithcing and hitting coaches out there it would appear to be expensive but not impossible

I am not sure losing a year of play is necessarily accurate. A redshirt is allowed to practice and participate with a team except in intercollegiate competition. In that regard, a greyshirt is the same as a redshirt.

Now if by "play", you mean participate in games, etc., that would be correct. But in reality, the experience would be no different than if he chose to redshirt his first year.

One more thing: the key would be finding a coach/program that understood the concept and understood what your son was trying to accomplish. When we were examining the possibility, it was unfamiliar territory for the coaches that we talked to. Thus it was outside of their comfort zone. At the JC my son signed with the coach basically said here is a partial scholarship if you are a full time student. If you are not a fulltime student, then I will not have any scholarship assistance available. Son chose to accept the scholarship.

Sure, it could be done under that scenario. But the operative word is practical.

But he's better have one heck of a teacher. And the money necessary to have that teacher, I don't know if you're not better off just going to the JUCO outright, as montanadad's son did.

By attempting the greyshirt, you're banking on one heck of a scholarship the next year. That much of a scholarship isn't had too often in our game. But if money is not a major issue, yeah, you could get some benefits.

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Montana...

Your understanding is that a player could actually practice with a team, but not be a full time student? With the expectation that they would play for the team the next year? Interesting....That is an option I hand't even considered....

The players I am talking to are more likley to stay close to home at a JC for a year, with an intention to enroll as a freshman at a 4 year school (and still have 5 years) after a year at a JC as a part time student

OldVaman..

Agreed on all counts. Scholarship money might not necessarily be the object for the players I am talking to....rather that chance to get bigger, stronger, and being ahead in units, a chance to "hit the gound running" in a 4 year college program (with 5 years remaining) after a grey shirt year at a JC.

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I have heard of greyshirting used at the DIII level, because beginning last year the NCAA prohibitted redshirting. It doesn't happen often at the small, expensive private schools, but they thought it gave an unfair advantage to conferences like the WIAC (UW-Whitewater, Oshkosh, Point have been national baseball contenders) who regularly redshirted athletes. The kids just extended their time in school to five years on their own dime. The difference with greyshirting at this level is the player cannot practice with the team - they work out on their own. They just play in their 5th year, instead of their first.

In Response to the question...

Montanadad has the mechanics correct...but the reasons are not clear.

Let me clarify. We have on our team "greyshirts" and some will probably "redshirt" this year.

Reasons for most "greyshirt" is recovering from surgery, are in rehab, may be able to take some light practices and are reasonbaly certain that there rehab will end in time for them to start full practices in there second year at school but not necessarily as a full-time student.

"Physical maturation needed" is another reason for greyshirting.

Another reason for instance, is the player only need less than 12 units to make up a required course(s) to transfer to a four year school and was NCAA Clearinghouse eligible upon graduation from HS.

Since the eligibility clock doesn't start ticking until the athlete becomes a full-time student he can take all the classes required to be eligible 24 units/ and his required core classes and still not have played an inning.

In other words with some coaches they will allow a player "greyshirt" to work out with the team until they mature into a player the coach wants then maybe (redshirt)and then let him join the team as a full-time player/student.

My son has been pitching against "men" in their "20-somethings" and he's only 19 now. But the experience he has gotten from it has made him a much better pitcher.

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RamRod...

This is good information...Thanks

Question...So your son greyshirted for a while year? (not just the fall).

Sounds as if it was a good decision.
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observer44

In answer to your question...

My son didn't grey shirt or redshirt. He will be a college sophomore next season. He may redshirt the 07 season and come back to play 08 and 09. He will be 21 years old then.

I surely understand the "greyshirt" in a football context - but ya got me confused regarding baseball

from what has been explained, it doesn't benefit the player or the program, but you ARE allowed to pay alot more tuition & fees - and waste time in school when you're not oficially in school

so should you have too much $$ or is it a tax write off for you or what??

sorry I'm slow to catch on - please talk in plain language

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Bee

Greyshirt means in school taking less then 12 units which means not a full-time student. But you are a player working out with the team...just not rostered.

Because not all kids get scholarships, some kids fall in to the category who work to support themselves and help pay for their tuition. One of our players 3B did this last year and still worked out with the team. He needed to complete several courses 8 units so that he could transfer. He made and saved enough money to pay his tuition so he will be a full-time student and play this year at one of the UC campuses this coming season. And we have some kids players that also redshirt after playing at D-1 and find they are not cut out to live away from home.

But the most approppo use of greyshirt is player recovering from TJ surgery who is in rehab and wants to continue to work out with the team in preparation for coming back but does not want to use up a year of eligibility. He is considered part of the practice squad but not rostered. I hope that clarifies your question.

rr, thanks for the response

maybe it's a E-W coast thing, because the guys out here I know of
(more than several+) who are recovering from an injury or TJ, are
ON SCHOLARSHIP & "humping" the acdemics to get either caught up or ahead before they "officially" rejoin the team
is it different out west??



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THE ONLY scenarios I could see greyshirting be beneficial:

1 - A very young high school graduate, who defers enrollment at a more expensive school for a part-time year at an inexpensive JUCO. A deal would have to be struck with the JUCO coach to allow him to practice, or the player would have to pay for private instruction. He'd work to build up his finances, and he'd work to get bigger and mature. It would seem crucial to me that he'd be in an area that had a strong summer program, because he'd need that competition before starting in the fall.

2 - Someone coming off a high school/summer injury. Because baseball scholarships are often low-percentage deal, anyway, a person in this position might well benefit from doing a part-time thing for a year, even rather than redshirt and go to school with whatever financial aid you get.

The bottom line is that most kids these days are going to need more than four years to graduate; mine is in the third year of a five-year pace. It seems to me to play as early as you can physically compete and redshirt only if there is a strong possibility that you would be a starting player an extra year by waiting.

Many if not most college players dream about having a possibility of playing behind college, even if they don't admit it. But by the time they get to the fourth season, they realistic that dream isn't going to be reality. If they've made it that far in their education, the finish line is suddenly so much easier to focus on.

Depends...

If a player needs to make up units then he can't grey shirt if he takes more than 12 units. Greyshirt means not-a-full-time-student, nor can you play in any season game, but it also means that you don't lose a year of eligibility. But you are part of the team, just not an "active" more like an injured reserve member.

But there is no greyshirting option once you've started the clock, not that I've ever heard of. It's five years to complete four seasons in D-I and, with those starting college now, a straight-line four years of eligibility in D-III.

That's my understanding of the rules, Ramrod. I could be wrong, but I'm not understanding of how this would align with what you're saying about credits.

With the 40-60-80 rule, if you don't have the credits, you are not eligible. I am told this will not count against your eligibility if you HAVE NOT used a redshirt year. The compliance officer at my son's school said the 5-for-4 is the bottom line. Of course, if you don't pass 24 credits as a freshman you are not eligible, so the basics would be the same, you'd make up the credits as a redshirt. You leave school and/or go part-time, the clock still runs.

I would be careful about the term "not a full-time student". The NAIA considers 9 credits or more to be a full-time semester when it determines the number of semesters of eligibility.....in the NAIA a student-athlete has ten semesters to complete four years of eligibility in any sport. A student must take at least 12 credit hours in order to participate (unless it is the semester of graduation, like Matt Leinart).

SOURCE San Diego College
Mesa Athletics and Academic Program (MA2P)

Glossary of Terms

Clearinghouse Central location where students have their courses evaluated to determine if they are a qualifier, non qualifier, or partial qualifier.

Greyshirt Students who choose to postpone their NCAA five year clock by taking fewer than twelve units their first semester in college.

Red Shirt A year of non-participation.

Non-Qualifier A student who does not meet the NCAA core requirements and SAT score prior to enrolling in college.

Partial Qualifier A student who meets the NCAA core requirements but does not meet the minimum SAT score prior to enrolling in college.

40-60-80 Rule Rule determining the percentage of a specific degree at the transfer institution that must be completed to remain eligible for competition after four full-time semesters (40%), six full-time semesters (60%), and eight full-time semesters (80%).

5 Year Clock Number of years a student is eligible to play NCAA athletics. A student can compete four years out of five total years. The five year clock begins the semester a student enrolls full-time (12 units). NCAA DIVISION I ONLY

10 Semester Rule A student may not participate after ten full-time semesters. DIVISION II ONLY

35% Rule Non-qualifiers entering the community college full-time on or after August 1, 1996. Percentage of the specific degree that must be completed to be eligible for competition.

4-2-4 Transfer A student who attends an NCAA school, then transfers to a community college, then returns to an NCAA institution.

************************************************

As it was explained to me the clock doesn't start until you actually register, enroll, and participate in 12 units as a full-time student and also participate in an NCAA sanctioned athletic event. Then the 5 to play 4 clock starts. An added requirement is that 24 units must be done by your Sophomore year and of those 24 units 40% of your core General Education courses must be completed.

NAIA might be different, but in the NCAA now it's 40 percent of the graduation requirements of your major by the start of the third year, 60 percent by the start of the fourth year and 80 percent by the start of the fifth year.

What you have there is pretty much what I've been saying. The only difference is the clock starts the day you begin classes as a full-time student. Otherwise, you could go to school full-time for three years, practice every day (but not play), then have five more years to play in four seasons.

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This is very helpful stufff.......even more than I had hoped

Thanks!

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c'mon we ARE actually talking about going to college here - you know . . . getting thru and an educated

I have a buddy who could tell you how to get a degree in 12 yrs and land his first job at 35 - and never even worry about a clock,
ticking or otherwise

the greyshirt path is NOT for baseball -

some are making it sound like a seldom used
"secret approach loophole" to get onto a college baseball team

it's use is common in football to -
1)"lock-up & land a STUD" when you're out of scholarships til the next yr
2)"land a STUD" with another STUD already at his position on the team, graduating soon

it's NEVER used to develop a player who could not ALREADY make the team


if a kid is not mature enough for college, he should attend a prep school and ACTUALLY PLAY for that yr -

if he was RECRUITED/SIGNED then injured, he takes 20 hours per semester his freshman yr, not 6

if UN-RECRUITED/UNSIGNED and/or injured and hopes to walk-on "someday", he takes 20 hrs/ also

it would take a great imagination to think a coach (juco or otherwise), with a full roster and the daunting task of getting his team ready for their season would "kindly" let a player workout with his team who's sole intent is to then transfer and never play - - and same goes for the unrecruited player who's "dream is to someday walk-on" to that program -


this stuff will only serve to confuse people



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Bee...

Agreed...mostly.

With respect...and I have said this before....While we would all like to believe that all our sons are Blue chips and will magically land a full ride, to a highly academic, top 20 DI on July 1....One size does not necessarily fit all. According to the NCAA there are 130,000 high school senior baseball players and 7,300 NCAA roster positions for freshmen baseball players.

Parents and players need to know all options. Options are knowledge. Knowledge is power. That is why we are all here at the HSBBW...I think.

Yes, greyshirting is certainly the road least taken. Not it is not a secret loophole. No it is not for everyone. Agreed a player should take as many units as he can -within his goal/plan....But for a player needing maturity, or behind in academics it might be a good, or the only option.

Yes this stuff is confusing but at it's core isn't HSBBWS a resource.....and if this stuff helps a single kid navigate his way to his dream, then why not explore it here?

.

Without all the fancy mumbo jumbo, grey shirt according to NCAA compliance at a 4 year institution is a part time enrollee, less than 12 hours, period.
Bee is correct, a coach in a 4 year NCAA school really has no time to waste on a player who is enrolled part time. In fact, I got this info from compliance because coach has NO idea the use of the term!

Not at all practical in a 4 year NCAA college setting and seldom, if never used, may apply differently in a JUCO, NAIA setting, it is uncommon practice at most 4 year NCAA Div1 schools and term may have other implications at different levels, D2,D3.

quote:

by o44: Yes, greyshirting is certainly the road least taken

therein lies the confusion - -
in BASEBALL it is the road NEVER OFFERED

o44 - being on this board a while, surely you can't believe only "blue chips" get scholarships ("don't call me shirley")


the examples given in this thread further confuse

by hokie1 - that was a FOOTBALL scholarship - by ncaa rule a football/baseball player MUST be on the FOOTBALL scholarship

by rr - injured players are on "MEDICAL HARDSHIP WAIVERS" - - -
aka - REDSHIRTS

yes you'll see mention of it in ncaa guides, they cover ALL SPORTS
*my correction, per grateful - thanks


I'm not suggesting that my opinion is the "be all end all" -
call a college coach(s) & I'll stand (or sit) corrected -
the examples you are basing your "knowlege" on just further confuse

there is a reason you don't see it in the HSWEB recruiting info


good luck


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Greyshirting is not a term that can be found on the NCAA website in the eligibility section!

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:
Greyshirting is not a term that can be found on the NCAA website in the eligibility section!

According to what I got from conversation, it's just a term used and obviously not too seldom.
There are no specific rules that apply for such a term. That's what I got out of it.

As I stated, coach had NO CLUE what I was talking about.

Posted by Observer44:
With respect...and I have said this before....While we would all like to believe that all our sons are Blue chips and will magically land a full ride, to a highly academic, top 20 DI on July 1....One size does not necessarily fit all. According to the NCAA there are 130,000 high school senior baseball players and 7,300 NCAA roster positions for freshmen baseball players.

This is why it is so important for a parent to guide their son in the process by encouraging good grades to go with any athletic ability for the purposes of gaining a scholarship. Exploring possibilities such as "grey shirting", which is NOT a common practice, should be the least thing to consider.

An article on how D-1's use "greyshirting" in football.

In baseball, "greyshirting" it is used as a means of delaying the 5/4 clock while a player is rehabbing from an injury he suffered in his senior year in HS. He can attend a JUCO, JC for an entire year, take less than 12 units per semester and remain eligible for the 5/4 while preparing to play the following Spring. As long as he does not play in an NCAA sanctioned event he is no more than like any other student, with the exception he is working out with the BB team.

http://www.athlonsports.com/article.php3?story_id=2385§ion=Home

I thought we were talking BB here?

In my posts I was referring to baseball.

I know there are some teams that over recruit in baseball then send the players to a JUCO. Is that grey shirting? If so, then is it a term taken from football recruiting practices, not necessarily referring to baseball recruiting.
If you come to school hurt, you take a redshirt. If by the second year, you can obtain a medical redshirt IF proven the injury occured BEFORE he entered the school. Players can and do get two redshirt years for seperate reasons, after approval.

rr,

how is it he could work out with a JC team?? I thought he was injured??


but, if he WAS "physicaly able" to work out with the JC team, would he not be physicaly able to work out with his 4 yr team??


given your scenario - - after recovering & "delaying the clock" the ONLY benefit of "5 to play 4" rule would be suffering ANOTHER injury?? YIKES!!


rather than a "recruiting" option,
what you describe would only seem to fit an ABSOLUTE STUD, who had a helluva run of bad luck, including injury, financial problems, personal problems, academic problems & maybe some bad advice to boot -
and was offered unusual & extreme measures to get back on track

imo, touting it as a "recruiting option" is a dis-service to those listening -




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Bee | TPM

Please understand the mindset of the coach and maybe also the athlete. The question for them is "how can they get the most out of the time alloted for a player to develop in a 5 year window. Because once you start the clock your options are very limited.

Coaches have players they know have the "potential" to be very good but they don't have room in their roster for them to "develop". The greyshirt" year gives them time to "stack" a player at a JUCO and then "redshirt" the player his 1st year at D-1.

This sort of thing has been going on for years, it was used when I played in the 60's. Bud Wilkinson use to "stack" players at OU using Oklahoma JUCO's to hide players. I think he won 8 National Championships. Nothing new here folks.

rr

please post your "helpful hints" on hsfootballweb boards


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As I stated I have heard there are some schools that send their players to JUCO. However, don't think it is at all to get THE most out of a player, but because the recruitng coach took and promisedmore than he should have.
There are too many players who are ready to play asap at the college level.
I find your theory interesting also, because many coaches are too busy trying to figure out how they can get the MOST out of a player in only 3 years, not 6. Baseball anyway.

FYI, grey shirting occurs in football because by the time the HS senior has to go through the application process he MAY not be academically eligible.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
rr

please post your "helpful hints" on hsfootballweb boards


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***********************************************

Thank you for your suggestion, the examples of how "greyshirting" applies to any sport reggulated by NCAA rules....including baseball.

I know it can be difficult to grasp how the concepts can migrate from football to baseball, but believe me it doesn't mean the world of baseball doesn't use "greyshirting" as a tool to develop players.

It is a reality of how the "system" works at all JUCO's and JC's.

quote:

It is a reality of how the "system" works at all JUCO's and JC's.

I would like to know if there is any parent reading this whose JUCO son was ever told by a specific coach go to JUCO, we'll take you next year.

This is NOT reality of how the system works, college recruiting, please don't confuse parents into thinking this is how it works.

sorry, perhaps I was a bit hasty,

your scenario could also fit an un-recruited guy who felt that his
"ONLY SHOT" to win a spot on the team would be as 22 yr old competing against 17 yr old freshmen - & then MAYBE keep his spot until he was 26




he could also have a Masters & Doctorate before he graduated


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Bee,

TPM

The truth is that many players at JC's use that route to work on some aspect of their game based upon the suggestion of a D-1 level coach. The D-1 coach will have a relationship, as does our coach here with D-1 univeristies. Those players that need work on their "game" come to the JC to "fix" the problem. It could be academically oriented of a BB mechanical problem. But the D-1 coach does not want to use one of his roster spots with the player because he would rather have the player do so at a specific JC.

Before I went on to my D-1 school it was suggested to me by my D-1 coach to attend a JC to gain more "muscle" and complete two courses I needed. Which I did and the following Fall I was accepted and played to graduation.

I don't understand why this idea of greyshirting, redshirting is such a touchy subject. This goes on all the time...makes me think there are some very naive people here.

It is not an illegal action, just one that is used to help athletes develop or rehab.

RR,
Of course that is THE reason why many players go to JUCO. To work on what they need to, or for DF, but it does NOT guarantee a spot on a roster the following year, or two, as you have made some to believe. There is no grey shirt RULE that exists as you originally suggested.

The coach didn't tell the player to go to the JUCO so he could have 6 years of eligibilty, he told him that because he wasn't READY for that specific program, or maybe any other D1.

Sorry, but you seem to be justifying that attending JUCO is so that a player can extend his 5 years to more in your original post. In case you don't know, most players want out by 3-4 years, that's THE plan. Most 22 year olds find it most difficult to be on a team with 18,19,20 year olds. It just so happens that NCAA allows you that option, it is NOT preferred by most college coaches, as although it doesn't count agaisnt scholarships, it still cuts into thier budget. Can you just see coaches have players hanging around for 5 years, sorry, it doesn't happen.

As BEE suggested, if the player is eligible and D1 material, he will be willing to give him a redshirt year to work under HIM, not another coach. Very very few schools prefer transfers as recruits, unless they have to fill a need.

Back to the term grey shirt, it means a part time player.