Greyshirting

quote:

The truth is that many players at JC's use that route to work on some aspect of their game based upon the suggestion of a D-1 level coach.

can't argue with that -
tho - it's called "attending a JC"
and for a variety of reasons it's often a VERY GOOD way to go - -


re: your GS label - - it'd be a leap, but I suppose if their uni's are grey . . .





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Bee | TPM

It is obvious that neither one of you have ever had to deal with these issues as an athlete.

If you had you wouldn't be stating the nonsense you are.

D-1 scholly players "greyshirt" all the time to avoid starting the clock and get in some development time. I personally had a friend that did that. I had a friend that took nothing but PE classes for a semester just to play and get in some units before the draft. There are all kinds of reasons that "athletes" use the rules to further their "playing" time, especially if they are really good and know that they will be drafted in the next draft.

You want to make it sound like all D-1's do 4 years and graduate. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most do two years and are out of school into the minors, or are out of baseball completely when they see they're not going to make it.

Very few graduate and end up playing in the MLB. Most look to finds ways to play without having to devote so much time to classwork....they are athletes that go to school to get to play ball.

They major in being eligible and will use "greyshirt" "redshirt" and any other means or method to play as long as they can always hoping to get to the next level.

I know Bee, finds it amusing about JC level players, but I don't.

We had a Special Forces Sergeant return from IRAQ after doing two tours of duty who played on our team last year. He played in high school and postponed his chances a BB because he felt a need to do his duty for his country. He "greyshirted" his first year back to get to practice with our team and then was part of our bullpen staff.

He transferred to Cal State San Luis Obispo. He has my respect for what he did for us...and it is no laughing matter.

I forgot, you know best, should never have started this to begin with.
I will just add final notes. Grey shirt is a term, maybe used by JUCO players for a situation, that's it. That's how the discussion began. No rules. What that sargeant did was go to JUCO and then transferred to a college because he was recruited. That's it.
And the way I see it, Bee never made any amusing remarks about JC level players. That was your intrpretation.

rr, ADHD or too much coffee??

quote:

By BEE above:
it's called "attending a JC"
and for a variety of reasons it's often a VERY GOOD way to go - - -

I can write it backwards so you can read it in a mirror if need bee

One simple question:

Why would a Division I coach keep a kid around taking practice time if the boy is not eligible especially if the boy is a "part time" student ?

Greyshirting is only for those who play and need time to develop. It is not for those who are not planning to play or practice, and those are general students that attend JC and have not committed to an athletic program like those who are "greyshirts".

A D-1 coach will greyshirt a kid at a JUCO or JC for a lot of reasons, but the most common is to rehab an injury, like TJ, then allow the player to join the program, though not as a true Freshman. Meanwhile the player can grab some units at the JC of his GE requirements and be one step ahead during the season so he doesn't have such a heavy workload.

That's the most common scenario, but there are many more.

Meanwhile the coach is not using a roster spot on a player who may or may not come back as strong as he was befor the TJ. But it also happens that one of our players has just finished that scenario and is headed to his D-1 next Spring.

Next season at his D-1 he will "Redshirt" his first year to continue to gain strength and develop his throwing accuracy.

The bottom line is that it's a huge reach in a sport that won't often reach.

Never mind that most coaches would want some guarantees before taking on a player who got a significant injury in high school. If the player were that kind of potential talent, he'd probably want the kid in school, so his sports medicine staff could oversee the rehab.

It would have to be a JUCO, because it would be a recruiting violation for a D-I to work out a non-aligned practice player (the Tryout rule).

Never mind that fall for JUCOs means tryouts/evaluations. Not many places will take on such players. Ramrod, if you know where, you should name those places, because if this is as important as you claim it is, folkis should want to know where to land.

I don't know how it is in your state, but in California all Sports Medicine Practioners have to pass very stingent requirements to get their licenses. And yes it can only happen if their is a close and trusting relationship between the D-1 and JUCO coaches. In California JC level players are allowed to transfer from JC to JC as long as not within the same Districts. The Sports Medicine at the school must be at a level that the D-1 coach knows and trust the staff...and they do with ours.

As a greyshirt the student can transfer from JC to D-1 as a qualified, but not as a non-qualified student/athlete but the transfer does cause a one year penalty as a non-qualified and that's the reason for the "redshirt" year. It does work to the benefit of the player to work at a JC level school as they have a lot less pressure and can be away ffrom the "razing peer pressure" to get back sooner than they need to.

Most D-1 "qualified" players come back to JC ball because they are told by their D-1 coach that to stay on the team they will have to "redshirt" a year and the player doesn't want to sit out a year.

They play two years at JC ball and many of them get drafted at the end of their sophomore year. Whereas if they had "redshirted" they would not be eligible to be drafted until the end of the Junior year.

At JC level ball you will find some very fine BB players all looking forward to the draft.

There is much more discussion on this topic than I would have imagined. Some people seem to be very passionate in their responses.

As I mentioned previously in this thread, my son and I seriously considered greyshirting as a possibility. I do think it is important to acknowledge that not all kids are "Blue chips", but that doesn't mean that the "dream" is not just as real nor just as important. We live in a state that does not have high school baseball at all. That factor along with a limited season compared to those areas that play year round, means that opportunities for him to play in college were very limited.

His Senior year, we drove to Kansas (1500 miles one way)three times to try to find a place that he would be able to play. We recognized that although he had as much potential as anyone, and he certainly had as much drive as anyone, his skill level was not as fully developed as the competition he faced. My son would have done anything within legal bounds to have the opportunity to play. If that meant greyshirting for a year in order to give himself a chance to develop as a player, he would have done so gladly. And I too, would have been happy to go that route if that were the only option available to him.

It turns out that he was able (by his determination as much as anything) to secure a place and small scholarship with a JUCO in Kansas. Right now, he is facing a decision regarding redshirting. It seems to be the direction that he wants to go, to redshirt his freshman year, play his second year, and then have three years of eligibility remaining at a four year school. True, it is the five year plan, but I would not be more proud of my son's effort, drive, and determination, even if he were a Blue Chip prospect at a major DI.

So the fact that greyshirting is not the normal route, does not mean that there are not instances and circumstances in which it may be an appropriate route.

Frankly, I would have welcomed this discussion at the time that we were considering it. We had to sort it out on our own, and learned a few things in the process.

montanadad.....it sounds like your son is doing everything the right way.....and his determination will take him a long way!!! Congratulations!

Montanadad,
Your son sounds like a fine young palyer and am very happy to hear he is following his dream.

Our discussion in no way was meant to demean a player attending JUCO. I am sorry if that was interpreted by yu or anyone else.
Players attend JC's for various reasons, because they were not eligible, because they were not drafted in a high round and did not want to wait another 3-4 years for the next chance, because they wish to improve and transfer later on. In my state, some of our JUCOs are better than some of our Div 2 and not easy to get into.

The discussion was based around the TERM grey shirting, which only means a part time student for NCAA purposes (you got it right a few pages back), but obviously does mean something else in JUCO according to RR (my sons college D1 coach had no idea what I was talking about today when I asked him).The term applies (from what I got from the discussion) if one needs to rehab, or get stronger a D1 coach who really likes you but didn't sign you sends you to a JUCO to rehab so you can stay active with the team and then go to that DI later on, giving you an advantage so you don't have to redshirt in a JUCO. Actually what I am understanding is that it is a practice on the hush hush, so I won't bring it up anymore.

Best of luck to your son.

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MontanaDad...

quote:

So the fact that greyshirting is not the normal route, does not mean that there are not instances and circumstances in which it may be an appropriate route.

Frankly, I would have welcomed this discussion at the time that we were considering it. We had to sort it out on our own, and learned a few things in the process.

Well said....

I think this is a great case study, exactly why I brought this subject up in the first place and exactly the kind of circumstance I am finding on the recruting trail...

Here is a kid who is passionate about the games, has skills and a future. But through circumstances ends up in a situation where he has not yet developed his skills fully. To chase his dream he has to compete against players that have had more opportunity and currently have more opportunities.

As a result it may require an alternative, or path less frequented, or some creative thought and extra effort for this young man to chase his dream. More power to him. As I said before Options are knowledge. Knowledge is power.

IMO it is valuable for us at HSBBW to help educate. I am sure that there are players out there who have learned from the information presented/argued here and from your case. I know I have.

Good luck to your son. He's already a winner in my eyes.

TPM,

No offense taken here.

Observer,

Thank you for your kind words and your perspective. I believe it is important for the kids out there that have a passion for the game to realize that if you are not "all-everything", you can still find a place and a way to pursue your dream. It may not be the conventional route, but that is okay too.

montanaDad, kudos to your son - it's awesome that it's working out for him


I'd also agree that 2-4 and 4-2-4 transfers can be a good way to go and offer alot more options for some players.



btw, if in the future you'd use the terms "2-4" & "4-2-4" instead of "greyshirt" everyone will be on the same page

good luck



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Bee,

I respectfully disagree with your understanding of what we are talking about here. It is not 2-4 or 4-2-4 transfers. If that is what you understand this discussion to be about then I can see why you might be confused.

The discussion is about greyshirting. Which is an NCAA term related to a student-athlete who is enrolled on a less than full-time basis. A full-time student is one who is enrolled for 12 hours or more per quarter/semester. The NCAA five year clock does not begin ticking until a student is enrolled on a full-time basis (12 hours or more.) Once the clock starts, at least in Div I, it does not stop except for a couple of very specific circumstances.

Just to clarify my position, my son did not go the greyshirt route because he was offered a partial scholarship. Had that offer not come through, and had we been in the position of not having any other options, we would have chosen for him to greyshirt his first year. (Enroll on a less than fulltime basis, find a program where he could have walked-on and a program that had a policy of no-cuts,worked out with the team for a full academic year, improved his skill as a ball player, and then enrolled on a full time basis his second year which would then have started the five year clock.)

btw- if in the future you would stay "on topic", everyone will be on the same page.

montanadad

Where are you going find a program that "had a policy of no cuts" ?

I want to meet that coach and ask him how HUGE his roster is

TR,

We actually found a couple of programs that had a no cut policy. (Now we were looking strictly at JUCO's, we were not even considering 4 year schools, so I cannot speak to that issue at a 4 year school.)

The coach my son currently plays for has a no-cut policy. The no-cut policy relates only to baseball, it does not apply to disciplinary or academic eligibility issues. They have 42 players that are currently on the team. Some of those may leave at semester, but that is the students decision. As mentioned, we did find a couple of programs, and we were fairly narrowly focused geographically. If you want to PM me, I'll be happy to give you the names of the specific schools and the coaches.

No need for the list montanadad

another question though-- why does a kid who is a competitor want to attend a program with no cuts ?

Most kids want the thrill of winning out over the competition and making the team--

How do you play 42 kids ? And how do they improve if not playing ?

mtdad, always willing to learn, but -
I guess I'm lost again

rr, please let mtdad explain the details, if you throw bud wilkerson, tj sugery, the US marines, & sports medicine back into the discussion - I'm afraid I'll never be the same

anyway, is this close?

#1 - go part-time to a juco w/no cut baseball for a yr or 2 - but DON'T play baseball
#2 - transfer to ncaa D1/D2/D3 as a non-qualifier
#3 - walk-on tryout
#4 - transfer again if you did not make the cut, or redshirt a yr if you do make the cut as non-qualifier
#5 - then play 4 yrs?

if that's close, Q on the transfer, are you recruited & on scholarship, or trying to walk on?
there would seem to be many unknowns each year


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TR,

I didn't think you were really interested in the list. But I also did not want you or anyone else thinking that I did not know what I was talking about.

As to your next question:

quote:

another question though-- why does a kid who is a competitor want to attend a program with no cuts ?

This, I think, comes down to a point of life experience. Your son, obviously, was very accomplished. The high level travel team that you coach is probably filled with players who will easily go on to the next level. It doesn't work that way for everyone.

My son's motto for life and for baseball was given to him by Coach Ritch Price at KU (University of Kansas). Coach Price told my son (and others) "hard work always overtakes talent alone". The only thing my son desired was to find some place where he would be given the opportunity to "work hard" and to develop his skills as a player.

We explored many options, including just selecting a school that he liked and trying to walk-on. He said, "Dad, the worst thing I can imagine is trying to walk-on somewhere and being cut before I have the chance to develop." One of the most emotionally poignant issues came after several rejections when he asked, "Dad, what do I do if no one wants me?" My response to him was, "you keep working hard, and we'll find a way!"

Why would a competitor want to be in a program that does not cut? Because he wants to have the opportunity to "be in the game" long enough to be able to prove that he can contribute, and to prove to everyone else that they were wrong about his capability. Undoubtedly he is looking forward to the thrill of winning out over the competition, AND making the team, AND becoming a starter. But he knows that he is going to have to work harder than anyone else to make that happen. He also knows that it is going to take more time to overcome past deficiencies.

He has improved dramtically over the last few months. It is amazing what 3- 4 hours per day of focused baseball training will do to improve your raw skills.
His arm strength has improved by 30 - 40%. He has never had anything much more than Rec level coaching that knew nothing about hitting. His hitting is improving. His speed is improving. His fielding is improving (more reps). His size and strength is improving (weight training).

Sure, 42 is a lot of players. 18 or so are pitchers. But the point is, he is positioned to have an opportunity. Now it is up to him to work hard and make the most of the opportunity.

You ask, how do you play 42 and how do you improve if not playing? I ask, how do you play if you do not have an opportunity.

mtdad

My son and players on any team have nothing to do with this---

By the way a player can develop as a "redshirt" and get 32 or more credits in as a full time student AND still have 4 years of eligibility remaining with a lesser class load.

To me this is a more positive approach.

I always like to take the high road and not the low road

quote:

#1 - go part-time to a juco w/no cut baseball for a yr or 2 - but DON'T play baseball
#2 - transfer to ncaa D1/D2/D3 as a non-qualifier
#3 - walk on or recruited?
#4 - sit or redshirt 1 yr because non-qualifier
#5 - then play 4 yrs?

Bee,

I'll be happy to clarify what we were thinking. Please remember that this is speculative because the situation for my son changed.

#1) Enroll in a JUCO, less than 12 hours per semester, i.e. part time student, participate on the team in the same way a redshirt would.
#2) Year 2, Enroll full time, 5 year clock starts ticking, hopefully at that point would have developed enough as a player to earn a position and play on the team.
#3) Year 3, either return to JUCO for one more season or perhaps transfer to 4 year school. (3 years of eligibility remaining.) I would have to rexamine the qualifier/non-qualifier question.

If he were good enough/improved enough, we would hope that his transfer would be the result of being recruited and/or scholarship. If he were not recruited/scholarship in the transfer situation, it would boil down to a) try to walk-on or b) hang it up.

It is a moot question now because he is enrolled as a full time student. His five year clock has started.

I will be the first to admit, that the greyshirt scenario is probably the least desirable option for a young man to take. But depending upon the individual, "least desirable option" may be better than "no option".

thanks, I think I finally got it -

again, the best of luck to your son on his pursuit

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understanding the apparently "regional" greyshirt concept -
I'd like to mention something to others who may consider it

basicly the SAME could VERY VERY EASILY be accomplished at one of the many fine D3 universities -
many carry large rosters,
there is a range of competitive levels, (very strong to very weak)
many have JV teams/schedules,
the academics would ALWAYS be on track for 5 yrs,
SAME coaching staff for 5 yrs,
SAME surroundings for 5 yrs,
a pretty consistent circle of friends for 5 yrs
a 4 YR DEGREE, plus some post grad in 5 yrs

if "talent really explodes" you COULD use the 4-4 transfer option -


hope that helps



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