Groundball Mechanics

Well I've taught both so somewhere maybe I was right

I used to teach 'funnel' like your buddy. Now I'm with you and I like your terminology of 'folding' the hands toward the throwing shoulder. I've used the term 'cross the midline' but I do like the term folding.

anybody else have some tidbits they want to throw into the pot of stew?

welcome to the website; you'll like it here

The reason I teach funnel to the throwing side vs funnel to the waist is because - where do you need to take the baseball in order to throw it? When you funnel to the waist you then have to turn and take the ball up to the throwing side in order to make the throw. Sometimes kids never get in the proper throwing posistion and fail to get their shoulders properly turned. So I teach funnel to the throwing shoulder which will turn your shoulders towards your throwing target. Its much quicker and helps get the player in the proper throwing posistion quicker as well.

One more thing make sure they are not sweeping the hands to the throwing side because this is longer and slower. Folding or funnelling to the throwing side is much quicker.

Going to the belly isn't bad if you have the time to do it... That being said, I don't teach it.

We made up a drill this past summer where we have infielders toss the ball over their throwing shoulder with their glove on a rolled ground ball. We call is the "Good Luck Drill" IE throwing salt over your shoulder. It forces the infielder to control the ball in their glove and prevents any movement toward the waste or belly. We started the drill after watching tons of video. The drill also let's players feel when they get long and sweep. (This same drill can also be done with backhands.)

I've never understood using the word "funnel" with fielding ground balls. Any help with this?

How about take the ball instead of funnel?

There is no reason to go to the belly or waist. It creates a movement that is not needed. Field the baseball take it to the throwing side which will get your shoulders aligned with your target and make the throw.

Taking the ball to the belly takes longer. Why would anyone teach that?

What does the word "funnel" imply? I can't get a visual at all. Maybe its the funnel shape that I can't get past.

I use "control the ball" and "cover the ball." UPDATE I also ask players to remove the ball from their glove ASAP.

I remember being little at camps and it was always taking the ball to your belly and showing the button of your hat. Doesn't really promote moving through the ball and being efficient.

One constant is that everyone wants to work through / field through a groundball but the process to go from fielding position to throwing position seems to have two schools of thought

1 - Funnel - where the hands are out and at the catch come back toward the body / throwing shoulder

2 - Shovel - where the hands go through the path of the ball and then the arms come up to the throwing shoulder (I do like that idea of phrasing it as folding)

Which one is right and most beneficial? Funnel has been taught for years but the Shovel has been picking up steam in the last few years.

I like / teach the funnel to the throwing shoulder like Coach May does but if I got a kid who comes in shoveling and he does it well I'm not going to change it. I'm not a fan of shoveling because it seems counterproductive where you are "pushing" the ball away from you and creates the possibility of taking a longer path to throwing position. Every step a fielder takes is 2 or 3 the base runner takes.

Bobby to answer your question about why they call it "funneling" I have no earthly idea. It's what I've always heard it called and I stuck with it myself.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I'm not a fan of shoveling because it seems counterproductive where you are "pushing" the ball away from you and creates the possibility of taking a longer path to throwing position. Every step a fielder takes is 2 or 3 the base runner takes.

This shoveling should not cause momentum to go away from where the fielder is throwing the ball. The ball is moving up and the body is moving into a good throwing position around the ball.

For more of a visual, if you film an infielder, draw a vertical line from the point the ball hits the glove and the throwing hand covers the ball. The infielder will move his feet/gets through the ball/gain ground as the ball moves up this vertical line. When I was younger, I went to the Bucky Dent Baseball School and they taught "bring your back knee to the ball" as a way to get moving.

My facility is opening very soon... can't wait to start filming videos in there so I can post those along with the descriptions.

I dont think anyone said it should Bobby. Its all about creating momentum towards your target by the way you approach the baseball. There are three types of momemtun. Neutral , negative and positive. Neutral would be a smoked ball right at you where you have no time to create positive momentum and there is no negative momentum created by your path either. You then have to create positive mo towards your target by the way you field the baseball. Positive mo can be created by the path you take to the gb or where the ball is hit actually creates positive mo on your approach. For instance a gb to the ss hit up the middle. The approach is taking you towards your target. Or the gb is not smoked right at you so you take a path to the baseball that allows you to create positive mo towards your target on the approach. Then negative mo would be for instance a gb to the throwing side of the 2b where he can not create positive mo before he fields it. He must stop the negative mo and then create positive mo towards his target by the way he fields the baseball.

So the bottom line is there in no one way to field a gb. The way the ball it hit , where it is hit , where you are playing , what the momentum situation is and what can be created , the situation in the game , the speed of the runners , the location of base runners , the field conditions , etc. The basic fundementals of fielding a gb are exactly that , basic. Proper pre stance , proper mental game plan before the ball is pitched ie understanding the game situation and running the scenarios through your head before the pitch , proper approach based how the ball is struck , where you are going with the baseball , etc - proper fielding mechanics based on the situations.

Players that can play are not mechanical robots that are "you field the baseball this way" type of players. They understand that you must have the ability to simply make plays. The ability to throw from all arm angles depending on the situation. The ability to create proper throwing angles and fielding by the approach. They are also guys that make the routine play on a routine basis because they fundementally sound. Fielding the gb is the most simple part of the equation. Fielding the gb properly which puts you in the proper throwing posistion as you are fielding the baseball is what seperates players.

There are a ton of guys that can field a gb. There are a ton of these guys that are mechancially sound in fielding a gb. But there are a ton of these guys that can not complete the routine play on a routine basis. The vast majority of errors at the hs level are not on the actually fielding of the gb. They are on the throw. And the reason they are on the throw is they were not in the proper throwing posistion when they fielded the ball they simply fielded it.

Knowing how to create the proper path to the baseball and how to transistion from the actualy fielding of the baseball to the throwing of the baseball is critical if you want to play at a high level. There are many hs players who can get by with what they do at the hs level. When the players are much faster , get out of the box much quicker , when the game speeds up much greater they simply can not play at that level because there mechanical players.

Rambling I know. But when you see a guy that understands what I am talking about and then performs the fielding of a gb properly you dont see - reach , fold , turn , step , throw. You see one fluid motion. There should never be a gb fielded where you are not moving. The prestance has you moving on the pitch. The path you take has you moving to create positive momemtun towards your target as you are approaching the baseball. "Play through the baseball."

There is no one way to field a gb. There are too many scenarios to mention that would dictate a different approach. Guys that know how to field a gb extremely well but only one way are doomed. Guys that can play and know how to make plays will be just fine. Its about understanding the situation , taking the proper approach to the ball or path , using the fielding technique needed in that situation "no need to cover the ball with the throwing hand" or "gator" the baseball on the slow roller because by the time you transistion the runner is safe.

There is not one way to hit. There is not one way to field a gb. There are absolutes in hitting ie keep your eye's on the ball track it all the way , there are absolutes in fielding a gb , take the proper path to the baseball in order to allow yourself the ability to make plays.

Good discussion. Sorry for the long post. You dont have to agree with me. I am always willing to learn more. But there is a huge difference in guys that play and are fundementally sound and guys that can play who understand the fundementals of fielding.

I teach my infielders to deflect the ball to the throwing hand ASAP when fielding the "routine" ball. So, we neither funnel to the waist or take the ball/glove to the shoulder.

Coach May,

Keep rambling... what you call rambling, most of us call "teaching".

Really like your point about always moving in fielding a gb.

Thing I see being taught is the gain ground toward the target in the throwing to a base. I agree with this for some grounders but was actually taught something different by some old MLB players I grew up around as a kid. They really stressed getting your feet set quickly and getting rid of the ball at the MIF positions. Set that foot and throw...they didn't get caught up in worrying about jargon as all of the kids I grew up with could all throw well. No thinking, just throw. If you have the arm for SS it ain't a problem they would tell us. You might take a single step towards the target but nothing like the shuffling some kids do. If possible, field the to the throwing hand side of the body. Can't say I teach this today but it sure worked well for me turning a DP or from behind the plate.

Funnel,shovel,whatever..gotta be able to do it all to be a decent infielder.

Back in the dinosaur days, our coaches would watch the kids play catch and would almost pick out their infielders by sight. If a kid didn't naturally move to the ball to catch it center of his body but just reached for it, OF or pitcher was in the mind of the coach. To this day, when warming up I demand movement to the ball and to catch center-mass with two hands for the infielders; many players don't understand good fielding starts with the feet.

You bring up some great points. I tell kids all the time I dont want you to catch with two hands because I am afraid your going to drop the ball. I want you to catch with two hands because I want that throwing hand at the baseball when you catch it.

You know the kids that get it understand if your making a play without setting up your next play your a step behind the ones that do. The way you catch should set up your throw , the way you field should set up your throw , etc.

I do not want players to be so consumed with mechanics to the point they are mechanical players. Step 1 then I do Step 2 then I do Step 3, etc. Yes there might be three steps but I want you to make them one step. I want you to learn how to play the game in a fluid athletic manner that allows your athletic ability to run the show.

Great points about the old school guys and about footwork , so true imo.

Thanks for all of the input. I too agree with what most have been saying about footwork, throwing, momentum, etc. There is no one way that works in every situation, but for the purposes of drill work with our MIF I want to make sure I am on track.

Coach have you ever used the infielder training gloves? I really like them.

I have used the small glove (9-10") and the flat, pad-type trainer. I like the small glove better than the flat one. Which do you prefer?

To add something further to the discussion about footwork and hand action, I like to teach the concept that you move your body through the point of ball-glove contact rather than bringing your hands back to your body. If the feet are moving forward, a simple folding/hinging of the elbows brings the ball up to the throwing shoulder rather easily.

Thats what I mean when I say play through the ball. And yes I love the small gloves.

Coach May,

My explanation what in response to:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I'm not a fan of shoveling because it seems counterproductive where you are "pushing" the ball away from you and creates the possibility of taking a longer path to throwing position. Every step a fielder takes is 2 or 3 the base runner takes.

I loved the three types of "mo". I talk about getting both "behind" and "under" the ball on routine plays and very often use the word momentum. There is certainly an approach required to being a consistent infielder just as there is an approach to being a consistent hitter. Where do you think the disconnect is between this knowledge, coaches and the players??

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams: Back in the dinosaur days, our coaches would watch the kids play catch and would almost pick out their infielders by sight. If a kid didn't naturally move to the ball to catch it center of his body but just reached for it, OF or pitcher was in the mind of the coach. To this day, when warming up I demand movement to the ball and to catch center-mass with two hands for the infielders; many players don't understand good fielding starts with the feet.

Teach them. (You can't expect them to just know.)

I enjoy your posts and in no way was my post an attack on what you were talking about. I think the problem is that mechanics are taught in steps such as "Reach out , then gator the ball , then turn your shoulders , then step and throw , then .........."

Players become mechanical in their desire to be mechanically sound players. In other words they are doing what they have been taught and lose their individual ability to play the game with their athletic ability with sound mechanics that need to be adjusted based on the circumstances.

Its like teaching every hitter how to hit the same way with the same approach etc. If a kid is very athletic but you have taught him his whole life to square up on the gb , sit on the gb , reach out , gator it , then restart to make a throw he has lost his athletic advantage. He has some good fundementals working but he is not connecting the dots in a fluid and natural motion. He is mechanical when he doesnt need to be.

In our attempt to teach mechanics if we are not careful we take away from the playes ability to simply play the game and make plays. Of course there are principles and certain mechanics that will assist a player in becoming a solid player. But we need to be careful that we dont turn them into cookie cutter players who are dumbed down to the "mechancial player."

Its kind of like the hs coach that has been taught one way to teach hitting. Everyone will have this stance. Everyone will load like this. Everyone will have this approach. A kid comes in that can mash with a solid swing process. Some outstanding natural hitting ability. By the end of the first year in hs he is going down hill and very fast. Everyone becomes a clone of what the coach wants them to be. The easy way to coach is say "This is the way we field a ground ball." "This is the way we hit."

That will help the below average player become a serviceable hs player. It will kill the player with the ability to play at a high level imo. I believe in basic fundementals of fielding. And then I believe that players need to balance that with the ability to play the game. One should not take away from the other but simply assist each other. I hope that makes sense. And it is simply my opinion and my philosophy in coaching and teaching players.

Coach'em up

Coach May,

Again, I completely agree with the coaching approach you present. I was in a facility last night between lessons and was watching a softball team hit. (12 girls, one cage, very sad) The coach was telling the players what to do - and what he was telling was completely wrong - without giving any reason WHY. He had to re-tell each girl as they got in the cage and it was disappointed to watch time and money being wasted. It was obvious that the coach was trying to borrow drills, but he didn't "get it" with the intended execution.

I like to force failure with my instruction. The failure always has a purpose, it is never random and it is almost always followed up with questions to the athlete. Proper mechanics should allow a player to be free, natural, and athletic. The robotic stuff comes from coaches/instructors who don't know what they are doing and tell how without knowing why. When I force failure on an infielder, it is to make them feel their momentum, feel if they are moving through a ball, and feel if they have their legs under them for a throw. Getting back on topic, I see the "shovel" technique allowing free, athletic movement better than the "funnel" does.

quote:

Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
I teach my infielders to deflect the ball to the throwing hand ASAP when fielding the "routine" ball. So, we neither funnel to the waist or take the ball/glove to the shoulder.

I've posted a "deflection" video on another thread for transfers. I'd love to see what you mean by this on a fielded ball.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbyTewks:
Coach May,

My explanation what in response to:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I'm not a fan of shoveling because it seems counterproductive where you are "pushing" the ball away from you and creates the possibility of taking a longer path to throwing position. Every step a fielder takes is 2 or 3 the base runner takes.

I loved the three types of "mo". I talk about getting both "behind" and "under" the ball on routine plays and very often use the word momentum. There is certainly an approach required to being a consistent infielder just as there is an approach to being a consistent hitter. Where do you think the disconnect is between this knowledge, coaches and the players??

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams: Back in the dinosaur days, our coaches would watch the kids play catch and would almost pick out their infielders by sight. If a kid didn't naturally move to the ball to catch it center of his body but just reached for it, OF or pitcher was in the mind of the coach. To this day, when warming up I demand movement to the ball and to catch center-mass with two hands for the infielders; many players don't understand good fielding starts with the feet.

Teach them. (You can't expect them to just know.)

Bobby I may have painted the wrong picture for you with what I was describing. When I said "taking a longer path to the throwing position" I was talking about getting the hands into throwing position and not the feet / body.

I understand what you're saying about the path taken to the ball should create momentum to the target (great explanation by Coach May on "mo" and probably will be stealing it too) and everything work in unison to get rid of it quickly. I've just seen a lot of players / instructors NOT do that folding action or doing it very late in the fielding process. If the hands are out and come up and fold late then you are going to be giving the runner extra steps.

My apologies if I lead you to think I was talking about feetwork - I have a tendency to have brilliant thoughts but never get them down to print very well LOL!!!

I'm looking forward to seeing some videos you can post and I have really enjoyed reading your posts on this thread.

Here is the way I teach it to our HS kids. These terms and philosophies are based on the "routine" ground ball.

First, I want them to "attack" the ball. Meaning I want them to gain some ground. The first step is the key. We do a walk-in step on the pitch of right, left, small hop. Then on a "routine" ball, our first step is with the right foot up at a 45 degree angle to get to the right of the ball. We DO NOT do the banana rounding of the ball which is often taught. When you round the ball in this fashion, many times players will get caught leaving the ball behind on the right side which can cause fielding problems and throwing issues. We want our kids to get to the right of the ball and work thru the ball towards your intended throwing target and not around it.

We now work up into the ball. The one thing I see many youth and even HS kids do, is they work up into the ball, but wait until the last second to get the glove down. Instead of gradually working down, they drop straight down. We take a few steps up, choose the hop we want, turn our hips to face first base, and then shuffle (or short chop) the feet and get prepared to lower ourselves to field. Right, Left, Field.

From there we go right (sink the hips and lower glove down with step), left (glove on ground in good fielding position), and then field. When we are in our fielding position we have knees bent, glove down on the ground, hands out front and back flat. Our feet are pointed towards first base which allows us to get the ball on the left side more easily while still staying in front of the ball. Ask any infielder and 95% of them will tell you their easiest play is the forehand. So, that is essentially what we try to make this play. In a way. Might have to see it to have it make sense.

Once we field, we now move the feet with a right, left, "shuffle" throwing approach towards 1st base. We don't step behind with the right foot. We want to be sure we really use the feet and legs and gain ground on our throw. We also stay on our throws and follow them. Great MLB infield Perry Hill once said that he does not like infielders that cross their feet when throwing, and I have adopted to that philosophy.

Some of these steps are hard to describe in words, so hopefully I have done it well enough. Watching MLB games, I see many MLB MIF using this technique on "routine balls". I actually got this technique from a AA player. I used to teach what he called the cookie cutter way. He told me I need to start taking advantage of my infielders athleticism and letting them play instead of making them so mechanical and robotic. So, we have really tried to do that especially with our forehand, backhand, and slow roller plays.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbyTewks:

quote:

Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
I teach my infielders to deflect the ball to the throwing hand ASAP when fielding the "routine" ball. So, we neither funnel to the waist or take the ball/glove to the shoulder.

I've posted a "deflection" video on another thread for transfers. I'd love to see what you mean by this on a fielded ball.

I usually use a paddle glove or small glove (9.5") to work this.

Basically I want my infielders to field the ball "above" their fingers. More in the palm, NOT in the web. Once ball hits the palm area they deflect the ball into the throwing hand. Usually this happens around knee level or slightly above the knees. Now the ball is in the throwing hand quicker and INF can get arm into throwing position quicker so all that is left is a good shuffle, throw and follow. IMO, this eliminates getting the ball trapped at the right hip area when trying to bring the ball and glove to the waist area and causing footwork/throwing issues.

We usually practice just by getting into a good fielding position and doing partner short hops where they do not come up. Both fielders stay in fielding position and work on the glove to throwing hand deflections.