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71 replies

Hands /Knob First drill

CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
While helping out at a Cal Ripken (12U) practice last night, I was asked to help with hitting, specifically correcting the LL swing (long looping....slow)

I started demonstrating the fence drill (wall drill at this time of year) but knew that most kids have a rough time getting the knob of the bat ( or the hands) out first, before they start the swing. Maybe they get the idea, but they have a hard time doing it. So as I'm talking about this I moved in to within 2" of the wall, with my bat parallel to the wall. I then brought the knob and the hands forward without hitting the wall (at 2" away). Anyway, the main thing is that the kids got it! And they could do it too! 24 kids 11-12 years old, first time at the drill and they were doing it better than Seniors. When they backed up to the regular fence/wall drill distance they continued to do this well.

Try it.
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B bbscout1,000+ posts
Coach Labeots, I have never seen any value in the wall/fence drill. In fact, I have never seen a good hitter swing the bat the way the fence drill is used. I feel there are too many drills used with kids and not enough hitting being done. Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing. encourage them to hit the ball hard.Throw them lots of BP. If a 12 year old can start doing the above things, he has a good chance of playing high school baseball.

IMO, the fence drill will teach the hitter how to have his bat head lagging far behind.
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B bigdawgryan10+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbscout:
...Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing...

bbscout,

I am looking for ways to help my two sons improve their hitting mechanics. In lieu of the fence/wall drill, what drills do you recommend to help kids learn to properly rotate as they swing, slot their elbow (this especially interests me), and stay balanced through their swing?
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L Lamber100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
Coach Labeots, I have never seen any value in the wall/fence drill. In fact, I have never seen a good hitter swing the bat the way the fence drill is used. I feel there are too many drills used with kids and not enough hitting being done. Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing. encourage them to hit the ball hard.Throw them lots of BP. If a 12 year old can start doing the above things, he has a good chance of playing high school baseball.

IMO, the fence drill will teach the hitter how to have his bat head lagging far behind.
Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
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PH Pete H10+ posts
bigdawgryan,
I also have two children and was interested in the same things you were. I was encouraged to purchase Mike Epstein's video series, which I did. He does have drills on the videos which will help you teach the skills you asked about. I also understand Epstein now has a CD-ROM out, but I have not seen it. I am sure there are other products out there that teach these skills but Epstein's video is the only one I have first hand knowledge of.
Beware, Epstein does teach the fence drill in his video, but I do not use it with my boys.
CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
The knob of the bat needs to lead to the ball in a quick compact swing.

My bat drills ( 1)fence,2)back foot to fence, 3)bat behind the back) take 2min for the player, while he is in a hitting station before his groups turn at Bp. We work with the tee, do soft toss, short toss, all while BP is going on. BP IS still the best, I agree, as long as they have correct mechanics going into it.

I've seen the fence drill work in teaching correct form. Actually, I've never heard it being questioned before. Of course around here Epstein is... "that guy from Welcome Back Cotter?" So,I'm interested in what is replacing it.

Lamber, why aren't you THE COACH here on this board? ( I already know, your fear has come true.....)
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Coach Labeots, I use the fence drill as well and so, guess I don't know much. Any breakdown drill is of extreme benefit especially when you are identifying weaknesses in a players swing. bbscout is right in that they need live arm as well. However, the live arm should be to reinforce the correction of flaws and not just swinging a bat. In other words, practicing with a purpose. We have a kid now with a long swing. we are doing all kinds of things to help him. I like the sawed off wooden bat (actually a broken wood bat with the end sawed off) and one hand drills to also teach better hand action for long swingers. I also like the towel drill where the towel is rolled up and put under the front armpit. The towel is released on follow through. It will tell you a lot about the swing. THen again, all of this might be useless info since I have proven I don't know much.

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen
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CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
CoachB25,

Have you tried the back foot against the fence drill with him yet? My worst case last year was not correcting because he was denying it, at least to himself. After watching others do this drill he attempted and could not even swing because the fence got in the way. He had to do this 4 or 5 times before he believed it. Then he worked on the other drills with a purpose and the back foot fence drill became his check to see improvement. He got to where he could hit wiffleballs from that position without contacting the fence once.

....that's right Lamber...wiffleballs....
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Coach, I have not. We typically do the "fence drill" against the batting cage net. It is what the next hitter is doing while another player is in the cage. I don't know that I want them that close to the net when a player is hitting. HOwever, we could do it. I will give it some thought as to where. Thanks!

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Coach L,
I tend to agree with bbscout on this one. The fence drill is kind of high maintenance. There are benefits if performed properly, but the kids, especially the younger ones, find creative ways to miss the fence other than a proper swing if you don't watch them very carefully.

As far as the hands/knob to the ball IMO, the key is for the knob to be pointed in the general direction of the anticipated contact point when the elbow drops into the slot, as that will result in a short swing, but that trying to pull the knob to the ball with the hands can also lead to problems with some kids.

As far as Epstein goes, I think you have to buy into his program pretty completely and be willing to put up with the kids going backwards for a little bit before they make a jump forward.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
I tend to agree with CADad. Starting the knob to the front edge of the plate is good. I guess it has to do with the circular hand path but a some point that barrel must get out there in the zone. Continuing to pull the knob through doesn't assure that will happen. Releasing the bat perpendicular to the path of the bat is important and I would be interested on tips/cues to do that properly
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Coach Labeots

Get the little guys to learn how to "turn" and feel the difference of hitting with their "bodies" rather than their arms.

As soon as the front heel plants..."Turn like he77!!" Then work on the rest, slot the elbow, match the plane of the ball, etc. If they can learn to turn (rotate around a stationary avis) they will become much better hitters.

My 2 cents.

Ross.
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L Lamber100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Callaway:
Coach Labeots

Get the little guys to learn how to "turn" and feel the difference of hitting with their "bodies" rather than their arms.

As soon as the front heel plants..._"Turn like he77!!"_ Then work on the rest, slot the elbow, match the plane of the ball, etc. If they can learn to turn (rotate around a stationary avis) they will become much better hitters.

My 2 cents.

Ross.

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
DaddyBoDaddyBo100+ posts
Bluedog
Lamber may know some technical skills, not sure.
He also knows how to click smiley faces.
He also believes that baseball, and any sport for that matter is not a means to cope and function in the workday world (per a previously closed thread). I would definitely not be wise to leave my son, for any substantial length of time, under the direction of anyone who believes this! (IMO) Eek

Talent Is Never Enough!
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bigdawgryan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbscout:
...Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing...

bbscout,

I am looking for ways to help my two sons improve their hitting mechanics. In lieu of the fence/wall drill, what drills do you recommend to help kids learn to properly rotate as they swing, slot their elbow (this especially interests me), and stay balanced through their swing?


Hi, I missed your post yesterday or I would have responded earlier.

Kids are good at copying, so I would show them some film of some good major league hitters that are rotating(all the good ones do). Look at the position of the elbow as they start their swing and watch it all the way to contact.Having the elbow slotted will help keep their hands in a palm up palm down position through impact. Staying balanced from start to finish is something that I say to my son at least twice a week. It helps him to stay balanced and coordinated while he is trying to put a good rip on the ball.It is a mental and physical thing.The next thing you can do is buy Ted Williams book.....the Science of Hitting. It will have all the necessary info in it to help you be a better teacher and your boys to be better hitters. The best drill is BP.....after you have learned a little about the swing.
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D dwill6413100+ posts
The fence drill ingrains into the hitter to actually keep the bat head from release until the hands have almost gone past the contact area. What most good/strong major league hitters do and why they are such powerful hitters is they are able to get the bat head going much quicker in their swing than average hitters thus creating incredible bat speed. They do not lagg the bathead behind as the fence drill instructs. They are able to release the bat head almost in front of the back hip. what this does is square the bat head to the pitch and levels the swing off to the plane of the pitch. If your player is popping up to the right hand side or consistently late on pitches and you have been using the fence drill, it could be the culprit. He is not squaring the bathead to the pich and is lagging the bathead behind his hands. These players often look like thier swing is incredibly fast but lacks power. Its because the bathead is not sqauring and extension is not occuring until after the uter the ball is past the optimal contact point.

Get a good pitch to hit!!!!
CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
I'm not sure where the idea of the fence drill being bad is coming from. Is this Epstien? Or Gwynn? I guess I wouldn't be convinced even if it was from a big name. I can tell you results I've had. My 12U travel team had a 393 team ave. Against some of the best teams in IO, WI, IL, and MN. We faced 4 pitchers that threw 70+. One kid that as his coach put it "Never gets hit" got shelled by our guys. This also includes 3 games against 14U teams. The next closest team ave in our league (we played league and tournaments)was 313. Now that probably doesn't mean anything to you guys. But, considering the same team hit 278 as 11U, before I put in the bat drills, it sent me a message. The fence drill has also compacted and quickened many of my HS players swings (especially the long swings)

Dwill I see the knob leading to the ball in the elbow slot sight (batspeed.com/mechanics.html)too. Try doing the fence drill with an extended elbow. Isn't this the same thing?
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Labeots:
BBScout,

I am not clear on what is meant by "keeping their elbow slotted" I know that is the latest discovery and have heard it often. Do you just mean bent? Or are you refering to a specific path/position the elbow goes through as it moves forward?


Coach Labeots, I sent you an e-mail, and offered to send you some clips of major leaguers slotting their elbow. You did not reply. Slotting is not the latest discovery......good hitters have always done it. You ask me a question, and I give you an answer, but you don't reply, as you are spending time bashing one guy and the rest of the time talking about a fence drill that has no value.
B bigdawgryan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:

Coach Labeots, I sent you an e-mail, and offered to send you some clips of major leaguers slotting their elbow. You did not reply. Slotting is not the latest discovery......good hitters have always done it. You ask me a question, and I give you an answer, but you don't reply, as you are spending time bashing one guy and the rest of the time talking about a fence drill that has no value.


bbscout,

Would it be possible for you to send me the information on slotting too?

Thanks.

bigdawgryan@yahoo.com
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