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Hands /Knob First drill

CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
While helping out at a Cal Ripken (12U) practice last night, I was asked to help with hitting, specifically correcting the LL swing (long looping....slow)

I started demonstrating the fence drill (wall drill at this time of year) but knew that most kids have a rough time getting the knob of the bat ( or the hands) out first, before they start the swing. Maybe they get the idea, but they have a hard time doing it. So as I'm talking about this I moved in to within 2" of the wall, with my bat parallel to the wall. I then brought the knob and the hands forward without hitting the wall (at 2" away). Anyway, the main thing is that the kids got it! And they could do it too! 24 kids 11-12 years old, first time at the drill and they were doing it better than Seniors. When they backed up to the regular fence/wall drill distance they continued to do this well.

Try it.
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B bbscout1,000+ posts
Coach Labeots, I have never seen any value in the wall/fence drill. In fact, I have never seen a good hitter swing the bat the way the fence drill is used. I feel there are too many drills used with kids and not enough hitting being done. Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing. encourage them to hit the ball hard.Throw them lots of BP. If a 12 year old can start doing the above things, he has a good chance of playing high school baseball.

IMO, the fence drill will teach the hitter how to have his bat head lagging far behind.
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B bigdawgryan10+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbscout:
...Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing...

bbscout,

I am looking for ways to help my two sons improve their hitting mechanics. In lieu of the fence/wall drill, what drills do you recommend to help kids learn to properly rotate as they swing, slot their elbow (this especially interests me), and stay balanced through their swing?
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L Lamber100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
Coach Labeots, I have never seen any value in the wall/fence drill. In fact, I have never seen a good hitter swing the bat the way the fence drill is used. I feel there are too many drills used with kids and not enough hitting being done. Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing. encourage them to hit the ball hard.Throw them lots of BP. If a 12 year old can start doing the above things, he has a good chance of playing high school baseball.

IMO, the fence drill will teach the hitter how to have his bat head lagging far behind.
Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
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PH Pete H10+ posts
bigdawgryan,
I also have two children and was interested in the same things you were. I was encouraged to purchase Mike Epstein's video series, which I did. He does have drills on the videos which will help you teach the skills you asked about. I also understand Epstein now has a CD-ROM out, but I have not seen it. I am sure there are other products out there that teach these skills but Epstein's video is the only one I have first hand knowledge of.
Beware, Epstein does teach the fence drill in his video, but I do not use it with my boys.
CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
The knob of the bat needs to lead to the ball in a quick compact swing.

My bat drills ( 1)fence,2)back foot to fence, 3)bat behind the back) take 2min for the player, while he is in a hitting station before his groups turn at Bp. We work with the tee, do soft toss, short toss, all while BP is going on. BP IS still the best, I agree, as long as they have correct mechanics going into it.

I've seen the fence drill work in teaching correct form. Actually, I've never heard it being questioned before. Of course around here Epstein is... "that guy from Welcome Back Cotter?" So,I'm interested in what is replacing it.

Lamber, why aren't you THE COACH here on this board? ( I already know, your fear has come true.....)
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Coach Labeots, I use the fence drill as well and so, guess I don't know much. Any breakdown drill is of extreme benefit especially when you are identifying weaknesses in a players swing. bbscout is right in that they need live arm as well. However, the live arm should be to reinforce the correction of flaws and not just swinging a bat. In other words, practicing with a purpose. We have a kid now with a long swing. we are doing all kinds of things to help him. I like the sawed off wooden bat (actually a broken wood bat with the end sawed off) and one hand drills to also teach better hand action for long swingers. I also like the towel drill where the towel is rolled up and put under the front armpit. The towel is released on follow through. It will tell you a lot about the swing. THen again, all of this might be useless info since I have proven I don't know much.

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen
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CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
CoachB25,

Have you tried the back foot against the fence drill with him yet? My worst case last year was not correcting because he was denying it, at least to himself. After watching others do this drill he attempted and could not even swing because the fence got in the way. He had to do this 4 or 5 times before he believed it. Then he worked on the other drills with a purpose and the back foot fence drill became his check to see improvement. He got to where he could hit wiffleballs from that position without contacting the fence once.

....that's right Lamber...wiffleballs....
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Coach, I have not. We typically do the "fence drill" against the batting cage net. It is what the next hitter is doing while another player is in the cage. I don't know that I want them that close to the net when a player is hitting. HOwever, we could do it. I will give it some thought as to where. Thanks!

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Coach L,
I tend to agree with bbscout on this one. The fence drill is kind of high maintenance. There are benefits if performed properly, but the kids, especially the younger ones, find creative ways to miss the fence other than a proper swing if you don't watch them very carefully.

As far as the hands/knob to the ball IMO, the key is for the knob to be pointed in the general direction of the anticipated contact point when the elbow drops into the slot, as that will result in a short swing, but that trying to pull the knob to the ball with the hands can also lead to problems with some kids.

As far as Epstein goes, I think you have to buy into his program pretty completely and be willing to put up with the kids going backwards for a little bit before they make a jump forward.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
I tend to agree with CADad. Starting the knob to the front edge of the plate is good. I guess it has to do with the circular hand path but a some point that barrel must get out there in the zone. Continuing to pull the knob through doesn't assure that will happen. Releasing the bat perpendicular to the path of the bat is important and I would be interested on tips/cues to do that properly
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Coach Labeots

Get the little guys to learn how to "turn" and feel the difference of hitting with their "bodies" rather than their arms.

As soon as the front heel plants..."Turn like he77!!" Then work on the rest, slot the elbow, match the plane of the ball, etc. If they can learn to turn (rotate around a stationary avis) they will become much better hitters.

My 2 cents.

Ross.
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L Lamber100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Callaway:
Coach Labeots

Get the little guys to learn how to "turn" and feel the difference of hitting with their "bodies" rather than their arms.

As soon as the front heel plants..._"Turn like he77!!"_ Then work on the rest, slot the elbow, match the plane of the ball, etc. If they can learn to turn (rotate around a stationary avis) they will become much better hitters.

My 2 cents.

Ross.

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
DaddyBoDaddyBo100+ posts
Bluedog
Lamber may know some technical skills, not sure.
He also knows how to click smiley faces.
He also believes that baseball, and any sport for that matter is not a means to cope and function in the workday world (per a previously closed thread). I would definitely not be wise to leave my son, for any substantial length of time, under the direction of anyone who believes this! (IMO) Eek

Talent Is Never Enough!
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bigdawgryan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbscout:
...Help them to learn how to rotate as they swing. Help them to learn how to slot their elbow. Encourage them to keep their head steady. Encourage them to try and stay balanced from the start of the swing until the finish of the swing...

bbscout,

I am looking for ways to help my two sons improve their hitting mechanics. In lieu of the fence/wall drill, what drills do you recommend to help kids learn to properly rotate as they swing, slot their elbow (this especially interests me), and stay balanced through their swing?


Hi, I missed your post yesterday or I would have responded earlier.

Kids are good at copying, so I would show them some film of some good major league hitters that are rotating(all the good ones do). Look at the position of the elbow as they start their swing and watch it all the way to contact.Having the elbow slotted will help keep their hands in a palm up palm down position through impact. Staying balanced from start to finish is something that I say to my son at least twice a week. It helps him to stay balanced and coordinated while he is trying to put a good rip on the ball.It is a mental and physical thing.The next thing you can do is buy Ted Williams book.....the Science of Hitting. It will have all the necessary info in it to help you be a better teacher and your boys to be better hitters. The best drill is BP.....after you have learned a little about the swing.
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D dwill6413100+ posts
The fence drill ingrains into the hitter to actually keep the bat head from release until the hands have almost gone past the contact area. What most good/strong major league hitters do and why they are such powerful hitters is they are able to get the bat head going much quicker in their swing than average hitters thus creating incredible bat speed. They do not lagg the bathead behind as the fence drill instructs. They are able to release the bat head almost in front of the back hip. what this does is square the bat head to the pitch and levels the swing off to the plane of the pitch. If your player is popping up to the right hand side or consistently late on pitches and you have been using the fence drill, it could be the culprit. He is not squaring the bathead to the pich and is lagging the bathead behind his hands. These players often look like thier swing is incredibly fast but lacks power. Its because the bathead is not sqauring and extension is not occuring until after the uter the ball is past the optimal contact point.

Get a good pitch to hit!!!!
CL Coach Labeots100+ posts
I'm not sure where the idea of the fence drill being bad is coming from. Is this Epstien? Or Gwynn? I guess I wouldn't be convinced even if it was from a big name. I can tell you results I've had. My 12U travel team had a 393 team ave. Against some of the best teams in IO, WI, IL, and MN. We faced 4 pitchers that threw 70+. One kid that as his coach put it "Never gets hit" got shelled by our guys. This also includes 3 games against 14U teams. The next closest team ave in our league (we played league and tournaments)was 313. Now that probably doesn't mean anything to you guys. But, considering the same team hit 278 as 11U, before I put in the bat drills, it sent me a message. The fence drill has also compacted and quickened many of my HS players swings (especially the long swings)

Dwill I see the knob leading to the ball in the elbow slot sight (batspeed.com/mechanics.html)too. Try doing the fence drill with an extended elbow. Isn't this the same thing?
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Labeots:
BBScout,

I am not clear on what is meant by "keeping their elbow slotted" I know that is the latest discovery and have heard it often. Do you just mean bent? Or are you refering to a specific path/position the elbow goes through as it moves forward?


Coach Labeots, I sent you an e-mail, and offered to send you some clips of major leaguers slotting their elbow. You did not reply. Slotting is not the latest discovery......good hitters have always done it. You ask me a question, and I give you an answer, but you don't reply, as you are spending time bashing one guy and the rest of the time talking about a fence drill that has no value.
B bigdawgryan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:

Coach Labeots, I sent you an e-mail, and offered to send you some clips of major leaguers slotting their elbow. You did not reply. Slotting is not the latest discovery......good hitters have always done it. You ask me a question, and I give you an answer, but you don't reply, as you are spending time bashing one guy and the rest of the time talking about a fence drill that has no value.


bbscout,

Would it be possible for you to send me the information on slotting too?

Thanks.

bigdawgryan@yahoo.com
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
CADad, on a positive note, also, Lamber's posts are full of knowledge if you know how to read them


Dear whomever (LOL)

Observation of the facts - his posts are full of smileys and snide innuendo.

If he has any opinions or knowledge about the subject at hand - he should post it.

Until such time - I guess it is fair to assume that we will get more smileys and "look at me" posts.

Waste of bandwidth IMO.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
In an attempt to keep kids from looping the bat came the dreaded fence drill. The idea is by taking the knob to the ball in a downward motion the barrell of the bat will soon follow and the swing will not be a looping long swing. Many High School coachs in an attempt to get very average kids to make contact and put the ball in play on the ground instead of ks and pop ups have instituted this method. Some of them feel that if they can just get a ground ball out of these kids maybe some will have eyes and some will get misplayed. I hate this drill and I hate to see kids chopping and lagging the barrell of the bat through the zone. Also I have seen kids cloned in a program that teaches this technique. Even talented kids that can hit when they come in but get confused and eventually deteriate as hitters. Most kids that cant hit when they come into a High School program cant hit because they have been taught something that is stopping them from hitting. I would rather have a kid that has never had any instruction than a kid that has had improper instruction.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
In an attempt to keep kids from looping the bat came the dreaded fence drill.


So how do you rid kids of looping swings? We have several kids who push their hands back beyond the outside of their back foot, as well as drop the barrel of the bat towards the catcher (10:00-11:00 on a clock face), during their strides.

I'm thinking that having them rest the bat against the outside of their shoulder - ala Epstein - might help them learn that they can be quicker to the ball by not pushing their hands so far from their bodies.

Comments? Other ideas?

Thanks,
Sandman
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
In an attempt to keep kids from looping the bat came the dreaded fence drill.


So how do you rid kids of looping swings? We have several kids (LL Majors, 10-12YOs) who push their hands back beyond the outside of their back foot, as well as drop the barrel of the bat towards the catcher (10:00-11:00 on a clock face), during their strides.

I'm thinking that having them rest the bat against the outside of their shoulder - ala Epstein - might help them learn that they can be quicker to the ball by not pushing their hands so far from their bodies.

Comments? Other ideas?

Thanks,
Sandman
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Lamber:
There is way too much emphasis on the hands and not enough emphasis on rotation.

Learn the right place to hold the bat (can be different for each player) then rotate and these other problems you worry about go away.


Lamber,

Are you suggesting that, during the stride, almost completely barring the lead arm while dropping the hands down to ~armpit height (having started them up at head height) - but w/ the hands so far back that the handle is vertically aligned 6+" past the outside of the rear foot - is possibly the right place to hold the bat for some players? I would think that all the rotation in the world still wouldn't yield anywhere near optimum results from this position? If this is perhaps not the right place to hold the bat, then please suggest where it might be.

Thanks.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Looping the bat is caused by dropping the hands and or dipping the back shoulder. Some kids drop the hands on the load or trigger and some kids drop the back shoulder and hands on the swing. This causes a long looping swing and causes the barrell to lag as well. When the hands are in total controll of the swing you will see this more often than not. The fence drill is performed in a manner that the knob is stabbed at the ball with the hands in an attempt to get the loop out of the swing. What it actually does is cause the barrell of the bat to lag and gives you a downward almost chopping wood swing. Work on solid rotational hitting mechanics that does not have such an emphasis on the hands to the ball technique.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
I agree that the kids on our team who exhibit this the most are mostly the hands/upper body dominant swingers. Perhaps I'm taking this thread on a bit of a tangent, but what I'm asking specifically is How do you get young kids to learn to keep their hands inside their rear foot during "solid rotational hitting mechanics"? They seem to be walking away from their hands too much, then dropping them straight down, then across. Just getting them to learn how to lead w/ their hips and slot their elbow better would seem to "late" in the sequence; IOW, the damage is already done by starting so far back, then dropping?
SandmanSandman500+ posts
Ok, I found an article in Epstein's archives that perhaps alludes to what Coach May and Lamber were getting at:

Pre-swing movements of the arms/counter rotating

His bottom line:
I personally find soft elbows work for me, from stance through pre-swing through approach.

I still find it a challenge to just tell kids this age "Keep your elbows soft" or "Keep your hands near your armpit/shoulder during counterrotation". They still just push 'em right back. Yes, if they had good rotational mechanics, they wouldn't do this; but they don't! Smile That's why I suggested resting the bat against the shoulder - so they can't push the hands back.

I mean, if you tell a player 100 times, "Keep your elbows soft" and he still doesn't, don't you have to try something different to "trick" him into doing it properly?

Thanks,
Sandman
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CADadCADad5,000+ posts
The hands to the ball/knob to the ball cue does work for some hitters. Unfortunately, taken completely literally it will eventually lead to a poor swing. The key is simply for the knob to be pointed toward the anticipated contact point when the elbow is slotted. This certainly doesn't mean the hands are going forward or that the knob is continuing to go toward the ball. Epstein feels that simply slotting the elbow will take care of this and that there is no need to focus on pointing the knob to the anticipated contact point.

Sandman,
I really focus on soft hands with my son. I find that kids who grip the bat tightly tend to start the swing with their hands going forward. I really don't care if the hands go or more accurately stay back a bit as long as they don't go forward too soon.
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itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Coach May,

My younger son had a problem with the hands going too far back - as Sandman described.

This may not be scientific (LOL) - but we used a mirror and a 6 foot piece of molding to solve the problem. Side view with mirror - dad kneeling down and positioning molding at upward angle to point where hands should not pass. If the hands hit - no good. (Just make sure its a long piece of molding - LOL)

BBscout mentioned before that young kids are very good at copying what they see. I believe this as well.

My son quickly learned what it looked - and felt - like to keep the hands in the proper pre-swing position.

BTW - Look forward to meeting you soon at CSB. Regards
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Coach May,

My younger son had a problem with the hands going too far back - as Sandman described.

This may not be scientific (LOL) - but we used a mirror and a 6 foot piece of molding to solve the problem. Side view with mirror - dad kneeling down and positioning molding at upward angle to point where hands should not pass. If the hands hit - no good. (Just make sure its a long piece of molding - LOL)


I'd also thought of having them hit w/ a wall directly behind them (towards catcher) to achieve the same effect (minus the mirror, which we don't have at the indoor practice facility). I like the molding (or other pc. of wood) idea though, as I could take that anywhere w/ me.

Thank you.
L Lamber100+ posts
Lamber,

Are you suggesting that, during the stride, almost completely barring the lead arm while dropping the hands down to ~armpit height (having started them up at head height) - but w/ the hands so far back that the handle is vertically aligned 6+" past the outside of the rear foot - is possibly _the right place to hold the bat_ for some players? I would think that all the rotation in the world still wouldn't yield anywhere near optimum results from this position? If this is perhaps _not_ _the right place to hold the bat_, then please suggest where it might be.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

How do you get that out of my post???
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Lamber:
Lamber,

Are you suggesting that, during the stride, almost completely barring the lead arm while dropping the hands down to ~armpit height (having started them up at head height) - but w/ the hands so far back that the handle is vertically aligned 6+" past the outside of the rear foot - is possibly _the right place to hold the bat_ for some players? I would think that all the rotation in the world still wouldn't yield anywhere near optimum results from this position? If this is perhaps _not_ _the right place to hold the bat_, then please suggest where it might be.

Thanks.


How do you get that out of my post???[/QUOTE]

Because you seemed to ignore my question and just apply a generic "rotational" tip.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Lamber:
I didn't ignore your question.

It's better said.....you don't understand the answer.

As in.....you can only see what you can see.



Here we go again - if a tree fell in the woods and you werent there - did it make a sound? LOL

Once again - no advice - just smileys - clapping hands, snide answers and Plato-like "pronouncements" - all in answer to a simple question about hand position.

Waste of bandwidth - dude just cant get the job done. IMO.

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SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by redbird5:
Sandman,

An easy, generic fix to arm barring and sweeping the bat is to start with the bat resting on the outside of the back shoulder with hands around arm pit level. In the trigger/loading, simply raise the bat off the shoulder.


Thanks redbird5. That's exactly what I said that I was trying w/ them in my first post in this thread; I just wanted to know if I was on the right track.

Lamber, get over yourself and say something useful for a change. Just because you're either too lazy or too arrogant to clearly articulate your thoughts and choose instead to use vague generalities in a lame effort to condescend to us all doesn't make us dumber than you. Roll Eyes
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Sandman,

Heres a hint about the Lamber/Rshard/teacherman etc... carnival act.

He has nothing to say - and he makes it a point to say nothing.

Actually - it is a logical approach if you really think about it. LOL

It is what I attempted to tell you a few months ago.

Hang in there - and keep the great questions and observations (and great video stuff) coming. All of it is very helpful IMO - and we get new members everyday - of all ages.

You are an asset to the site IMO.
L Lamber100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
......Just because you're either too lazy or too arrogant to clearly articulate your thoughts and choose instead to use vague generalities in a lame effort to condescend to us all doesn't make us dumber than you. Roll Eyes


I don't think it's because I'm too lazy or too arrogant or to condescending.

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