Hands /Knob First drill

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
CADad, on a positive note, also, Lamber's posts are full of knowledge if you know how to read them

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Dear whomever (LOL)

Observation of the facts - his posts are full of smileys and snide innuendo.

If he has any opinions or knowledge about the subject at hand - he should post it.

Until such time - I guess it is fair to assume that we will get more smileys and "look at me" posts.

Waste of bandwidth IMO.

In an attempt to keep kids from looping the bat came the dreaded fence drill. The idea is by taking the knob to the ball in a downward motion the barrell of the bat will soon follow and the swing will not be a looping long swing. Many High School coachs in an attempt to get very average kids to make contact and put the ball in play on the ground instead of ks and pop ups have instituted this method. Some of them feel that if they can just get a ground ball out of these kids maybe some will have eyes and some will get misplayed. I hate this drill and I hate to see kids chopping and lagging the barrell of the bat through the zone. Also I have seen kids cloned in a program that teaches this technique. Even talented kids that can hit when they come in but get confused and eventually deteriate as hitters. Most kids that cant hit when they come into a High School program cant hit because they have been taught something that is stopping them from hitting. I would rather have a kid that has never had any instruction than a kid that has had improper instruction.

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Originally posted by Coach May:
In an attempt to keep kids from looping the bat came the dreaded fence drill.

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So how do you rid kids of looping swings? We have several kids who push their hands back beyond the outside of their back foot, as well as drop the barrel of the bat towards the catcher (10:00-11:00 on a clock face), during their strides.

I'm thinking that having them rest the bat against the outside of their shoulder - ala Epstein - might help them learn that they can be quicker to the ball by not pushing their hands so far from their bodies.

Comments? Other ideas?

Thanks,
Sandman

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Originally posted by Sandman:

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Originally posted by Coach May:
In an attempt to keep kids from looping the bat came the dreaded fence drill.

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So how do you rid kids of looping swings? We have several kids (LL Majors, 10-12YOs) who push their hands back beyond the outside of their back foot, as well as drop the barrel of the bat towards the catcher (10:00-11:00 on a clock face), during their strides.

I'm thinking that having them rest the bat against the outside of their shoulder - ala Epstein - might help them learn that they can be quicker to the ball by not pushing their hands so far from their bodies.

Comments? Other ideas?

Thanks,
Sandman

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There is way too much emphasis on the hands and not enough emphasis on rotation.

Learn the right place to hold the bat (can be different for each player) then rotate and these other problems you worry about go away.

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Originally posted by Lamber:
There is way too much emphasis on the hands and not enough emphasis on rotation.

Learn the right place to hold the bat (can be different for each player) then rotate and these other problems you worry about go away.

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Lamber,

Are you suggesting that, during the stride, almost completely barring the lead arm while dropping the hands down to ~armpit height (having started them up at head height) - but w/ the hands so far back that the handle is vertically aligned 6+" past the outside of the rear foot - is possibly the right place to hold the bat for some players? I would think that all the rotation in the world still wouldn't yield anywhere near optimum results from this position? If this is perhaps not the right place to hold the bat, then please suggest where it might be.

Thanks.

Looping the bat is caused by dropping the hands and or dipping the back shoulder. Some kids drop the hands on the load or trigger and some kids drop the back shoulder and hands on the swing. This causes a long looping swing and causes the barrell to lag as well. When the hands are in total controll of the swing you will see this more often than not. The fence drill is performed in a manner that the knob is stabbed at the ball with the hands in an attempt to get the loop out of the swing. What it actually does is cause the barrell of the bat to lag and gives you a downward almost chopping wood swing. Work on solid rotational hitting mechanics that does not have such an emphasis on the hands to the ball technique.

I agree that the kids on our team who exhibit this the most are mostly the hands/upper body dominant swingers. Perhaps I'm taking this thread on a bit of a tangent, but what I'm asking specifically is How do you get young kids to learn to keep their hands inside their rear foot during "solid rotational hitting mechanics"? They seem to be walking away from their hands too much, then dropping them straight down, then across. Just getting them to learn how to lead w/ their hips and slot their elbow better would seem to "late" in the sequence; IOW, the damage is already done by starting so far back, then dropping?

Ok, I found an article in Epstein's archives that perhaps alludes to what Coach May and Lamber were getting at:

Pre-swing movements of the arms/counter rotating

His bottom line:
I personally find soft elbows work for me, from stance through pre-swing through approach.

I still find it a challenge to just tell kids this age "Keep your elbows soft" or "Keep your hands near your armpit/shoulder during counterrotation". They still just push 'em right back. Yes, if they had good rotational mechanics, they wouldn't do this; but they don't! That's why I suggested resting the bat against the shoulder - so they can't push the hands back.

I mean, if you tell a player 100 times, "Keep your elbows soft" and he still doesn't, don't you have to try something different to "trick" him into doing it properly?

Thanks,
Sandman

The hands to the ball/knob to the ball cue does work for some hitters. Unfortunately, taken completely literally it will eventually lead to a poor swing. The key is simply for the knob to be pointed toward the anticipated contact point when the elbow is slotted. This certainly doesn't mean the hands are going forward or that the knob is continuing to go toward the ball. Epstein feels that simply slotting the elbow will take care of this and that there is no need to focus on pointing the knob to the anticipated contact point.

Sandman,
I really focus on soft hands with my son. I find that kids who grip the bat tightly tend to start the swing with their hands going forward. I really don't care if the hands go or more accurately stay back a bit as long as they don't go forward too soon.

FWIW, the exact same results as the poster in the Epstein thread I linked to are what we're witnessing w/ our kids who push their hands back so far - swinging under the ball and/or popups.

Coach May,

My younger son had a problem with the hands going too far back - as Sandman described.

This may not be scientific (LOL) - but we used a mirror and a 6 foot piece of molding to solve the problem. Side view with mirror - dad kneeling down and positioning molding at upward angle to point where hands should not pass. If the hands hit - no good. (Just make sure its a long piece of molding - LOL)

BBscout mentioned before that young kids are very good at copying what they see. I believe this as well.

My son quickly learned what it looked - and felt - like to keep the hands in the proper pre-swing position.

BTW - Look forward to meeting you soon at CSB. Regards

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Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Coach May,

My younger son had a problem with the hands going too far back - as Sandman described.

This may not be scientific (LOL) - but we used a mirror and a 6 foot piece of molding to solve the problem. Side view with mirror - dad kneeling down and positioning molding at upward angle to point where hands should not pass. If the hands hit - no good. (Just make sure its a long piece of molding - LOL)

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I'd also thought of having them hit w/ a wall directly behind them (towards catcher) to achieve the same effect (minus the mirror, which we don't have at the indoor practice facility). I like the molding (or other pc. of wood) idea though, as I could take that anywhere w/ me.

Thank you.

Lamber,

Are you suggesting that, during the stride, almost completely barring the lead arm while dropping the hands down to ~armpit height (having started them up at head height) - but w/ the hands so far back that the handle is vertically aligned 6+" past the outside of the rear foot - is possibly _the right place to hold the bat_ for some players? I would think that all the rotation in the world still wouldn't yield anywhere near optimum results from this position? If this is perhaps _not_ _the right place to hold the bat_, then please suggest where it might be.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

How do you get that out of my post???

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Originally posted by Lamber:
Lamber,

Are you suggesting that, during the stride, almost completely barring the lead arm while dropping the hands down to ~armpit height (having started them up at head height) - but w/ the hands so far back that the handle is vertically aligned 6+" past the outside of the rear foot - is possibly _the right place to hold the bat_ for some players? I would think that all the rotation in the world still wouldn't yield anywhere near optimum results from this position? If this is perhaps _not_ _the right place to hold the bat_, then please suggest where it might be.

Thanks.

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How do you get that out of my post???[/QUOTE]

Because you seemed to ignore my question and just apply a generic "rotational" tip.

I didn't ignore your question.

It's better said.....you don't understand the answer.

As in.....you can only see what you can see.

Your protractor and ruler don't always answer the question.

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Originally posted by Lamber:
I didn't ignore your question.

It's better said.....you don't understand the answer.

As in.....you can only see what you can see.

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Here we go again - if a tree fell in the woods and you werent there - did it make a sound? LOL

Once again - no advice - just smileys - clapping hands, snide answers and Plato-like "pronouncements" - all in answer to a simple question about hand position.

Waste of bandwidth - dude just cant get the job done. IMO.

Sandman,

An easy, generic fix to arm barring and sweeping the bat is to start with the bat resting on the outside of the back shoulder with hands around arm pit level. In the trigger/loading, simply raise the bat off the shoulder.

bbscout,

Yes, I do need to delete some older emails. Until then, would you mind resending the information to my work address?

rlchrist@bechtel.com

Thanks so much.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
Sandman,

An easy, generic fix to arm barring and sweeping the bat is to start with the bat resting on the outside of the back shoulder with hands around arm pit level. In the trigger/loading, simply raise the bat off the shoulder.

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Thanks redbird5. That's exactly what I said that I was trying w/ them in my first post in this thread; I just wanted to know if I was on the right track.

Lamber, get over yourself and say something useful for a change. Just because you're either too lazy or too arrogant to clearly articulate your thoughts and choose instead to use vague generalities in a lame effort to condescend to us all doesn't make us dumber than you.

Sandman,

Heres a hint about the Lamber/Rshard/teacherman etc... carnival act.

He has nothing to say - and he makes it a point to say nothing.

Actually - it is a logical approach if you really think about it. LOL

It is what I attempted to tell you a few months ago.

Hang in there - and keep the great questions and observations (and great video stuff) coming. All of it is very helpful IMO - and we get new members everyday - of all ages.

You are an asset to the site IMO.

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Originally posted by Sandman:
......Just because you're either too lazy or too arrogant to clearly articulate your thoughts and choose instead to use vague generalities in a lame effort to condescend to us all doesn't make us dumber than you.

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I don't think it's because I'm too lazy or too arrogant or to condescending.

Lamber,

Its time to get yet another new id - and start over again.

IMO - of course.

Thanks its.

Lamber you are on one post very articulate and seem have a good understanding of baseball. Then you go and ruin it by attacking people with off the wall hilarious stuff. You are a very funny guy actually. I just can't figure out if you are really trying to create a negative field around you or you just help yourself?

So humor is prohibited also?

Maybe he has a 5th grader who's logging on with his password on occasion.

Lamber is a baseball guy. He is just messin with you guys

Please define "a baseball guy".

A baseball guy is a guy who did not play pro ball, but wants to have the respect that a pro player has. It is a term used for non players only so they can feel good about themselves when talking about the game.

Has a real notable MLB player( past or present) ever logged on to this site?

Baseball guys are most of us. Notable MLB players are them. Will all of "them" step forward. The in - betweeners are more like us but think they are more like "them".

For those that did not make it either...sorry you had to get a real job too