hands up

Ah, special ground rules; don't you love 'em?

Anyway, any special ground rules (ball lost in the leaves would be one) need to be discussed, and agreed to, by both teams prior to the start of the game. This usually takes place at the pre-game meeting at home plate. If it was discussed and agreed to by both teams and the umpires were aware of that then, by all means, the ump should have stopped play when the fielder put his hands up and awarded the bases necessary under the terms of the accepted ground rule. (usually two bases in this case)

If there is doubt in the umpire's mind as to whether the ball is actually in the leaves he can, after stopping play, go out to check. If the ball is in the leaves the ground rule is used. If the fielder was just trying to get away with one and the ball was not in the leaves, the ump can award additional bases he feels the runner should be entitled to.

It appears from your post that either:
a) The umpire was not aware of any "lost in the leaves ground rule" or...
b) Was aware of the ground rule but thought the ball was still visible.

I'm sure your coach had a discussion with the ump after the play. What was the nature of that discussion?

yeah he discussed it and he yelled at him bc at our games only 2 umps attend... so the one that didnt even stop play just said to my coach that i should have stood there and let the kid round the bases and then after he scored he would have called time and checked it out... but seriously when u see a kid heading for third wouldnt any1 give up hope and start looking for it anyways? it was a crucial game for us to stay undefeated and hold #1 in conf.

If you have a ground rule that should kill the ball then as soon as you raise your hands the BU should have killed it. It is no different than a ball bouncing over or through a fence. If you raise your hands and the ball shouldn't have been killed then the umpire awards bases to where he thought they would have reached. Let assure you if get it killed and he has to award bases he is going to be generous.

Dallas,

It appears that your umpire proceeded, well, backward. As Michael stated above, you kill the play first then check if necessary.

A player fishing around in the leaves may not be considered too dangerous but there are times where older chain link fences have damaged, rusty bottoms where a ball can get through. I definitely don't want players trying to retrieve the ball and risking injury. That is why we (umpires) instruct players to just put their hands up if a ball goes out of play and we will kill it and award bases as appropriate.

I disagree with the previous responses.

At least in my area, we are taught that if a player throws his hands up, the base umpire should immediately communicate with his partner (plate umpire) that he is going out to look. We instruct offensive coaches that if a player raises their hands, keep your kids running and if we decide that the ball did in fact did go out of play, we will put the runners back where they should be according to when the ball went out of play. By the base umpire running out, the fielder should know that the umpire has recongized them, and to stay away from the ball until umpire has determined that the ball has in fact gone out of play. The umpire will either signal with his hands up (the ball is dead) or the safe sign (ball is live).

Fast Eddie,

If that is what your umpires organization instructs you to do then that is what you should do.

alright well thanks for clarifying that i was not wrong on this... i was always told the the umpire would immediately stop play when the hands were thrown up this jsut confused me... we won though so its all good. thanks for the input everyone

quote:

Originally posted by Fast Eddie:
I disagree with the previous responses.

At least in my area, we are taught that if a player throws his hands up, the base umpire should immediately communicate with his partner (plate umpire) that he is going out to look. We instruct offensive coaches that if a player raises their hands, keep your kids running and if we decide that the ball did in fact did go out of play, we will put the runners back where they should be according to when the ball went out of play. By the base umpire running out, the fielder should know that the umpire has recongized them, and to stay away from the ball until umpire has determined that the ball has in fact gone out of play. The umpire will either signal with his hands up (the ball is dead) or the safe sign (ball is live).

This is similar to what our asociation instructs. This solves the how generous should I be with my award question and it encourages the fielder to not give a faulty out of play signal.

Fast Eddie & fvb10,

Just curious. Since you don't kill the play when the fielder puts his hands up, at what point during a play do you go out to verify whether the ball should be declared dead?

In my group, except from Pos. A on fair/foul or on trouble balls to right, leaving the infield during a live ball is a major no-no.

You have to kill the play when the fielder raises his hands. If you allow them to continue then you have to argue what advances were due to the hit or due to the fielder not being able to play on him. If you stop it you award what you think would have happened. It is way easier to advance a runner then to pull him back. JMO

We had a situation like this in a game last year. Opposing batter hits a ball over our CF head. CF ran out to retrieve the ball and raised his hands at the fence. Field ump ran out to check on it and opposing coach kept his player running the bases. When the field ump got there he signaled safe and the kid got a HR. I was now a bit ticked at our CF for trying to get away with one but when I asked the ump where the ball was he said it was directly under the fence and our player could've easily gotten it. I thought that was a bit of a cheap call.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
Fast Eddie & fvb10,

Just curious. Since you don't kill the play when the fielder puts his hands up, at what point during a play do you go out to verify whether the ball should be declared dead?

In my group, except from Pos. A on fair/foul or on trouble balls to right, leaving the infield during a live ball is a major no-no.

same here, wait until the runners stop running (usually after they score, but I've seen them stop before too) and then call time and go check the ball. If it is lodged then award 2 bases to batter and runners from ToP.

MST-I don't think there will be much discussion of where to place runners on a ground rule double (batted ball lodges in/under fence). I actually think that putting a runner back is easier, but then again, I'm just enforcing what I've been told to enforce.

Yes, you are correct. That was a braindead statement. I guess I was thinking a thrown ball. But you are correct in that it would just be a two base from TOP.
I saw a Minor "A" ball game protested over a thrown ball award. The LH pitcher threw to first, runner had broken for second. The ball was overthrown and was going down the RF wall. The R1 continued on to third, but the ball hit the tarp roll and popped out of play. It was a one base award because it was from the rubber, so the PU pulled him back from third. Manager almost got tossed and ended up protesting. The way the play developed the PU couldn't kill it until the runner was almost to third so it looked wierd.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I saw a Minor "A" ball game protested over a thrown ball award. The LH pitcher threw to first, runner had broken for second. The ball was overthrown and was going down the RF wall. The R1 continued on to third, but the ball hit the tarp roll and popped out of play. It was a one base award because it was from the rubber, so the PU pulled him back from third. Manager almost got tossed and ended up protesting. The way the play developed the PU couldn't kill it until the runner was almost to third so it looked wierd.

it drives me nuts when things like that happen There is nothin quite as frustrating as having a rule penalize the team it was meant to reward. the same as a batted ball going out of play on a hit that would be stretched into a triple or more and the you have to put him back.

wonder how you would feel if it happened to the opposing team. Can you say, "Thats Baseball!"?

I'm with Fast Eddie here:

quote:

Anyway, any special ground rules (ball lost in the leaves would be one) need to be discussed, and agreed to, by both teams prior to the start of the game. This usually takes place at the pre-game meeting at home plate. If it was discussed and agreed to by both teams and the umpires were aware of that then, by all means, the ump should have stopped play when the fielder put his hands up and awarded the bases necessary under the terms of the accepted ground rule. (usually two bases in this case)

You don't kill play when a ball goes "out of play" according to local rules. When a fielder throws his hands up, what if the ball is in fact still in play and the fielder got it wrong? If you kill play, you may have removed an offensive advantage. You must let play complete. Let the runners finish running, and then you investigate the situation. If the ball was buried-in-the-leaves / under-the-fence / caught-in-the-batter's-eye-tarp / whatever-other-local-"out of play"-rule applies, then you allow 2 bases from TOP. Otherwise the runners get whatever they got.

To kill play would just encourage savvy outfielders to throw up their hands to prevent triples [grin].

quote:

You must let play complete. Let the runners finish running, and then you investigate the situation.

Not so!

You must do what your local organization instructs you to do.

If yours is to let play continue, then investigate, then you should do that.

My instructions are: Kill the play when the hands go up, then investigate if necessary. If it's necessary to investigate and I find that the fielder was trying to be savvy (or lying), I award additional bases. At a minimum the award would be third but it could be home.

I'm not trying to indicate that one way is more right or wrong than the other. Only that to proceed in a manner that is opposed to what the organization wants causes trouble and confusion on the field and can be political suicide for the umpire within his organization.

pilsner:
It must be a easr/west thing because we do the same. Hands go, kill the ball. If the fielder is wrong you award bases and believe me I won't be nice if he is yanking my chain.

Kentucky umpires tell coaches before games if the ball is out of play then hands go up and runners keep going. When runners stop then they go investigate and reset runners as needed.

Some of the previous posts mention do what the local ump organization tell you to do - well in high school I would think it doesn't matter what you do locally because that would be a Federation rule and everyone in the country does it the same

The Fed rules do not specifcally tell what to do in this case. It becomes a matter of mechanics and that is governed by the local groups. So it can be done however your trainer tells you to do it. I find it easier to advance runner on a dead ball then return them. By the same token if KT says let it stay live then by all means do it.

How about this scenario:

We recently played at a field where there's no fence and a sidewalk leading to a playground & Picnic area goes along the back edge of Center and right field. During ground rules, the umpire states that if a ball is hit to the asphalt out there, it's a GR double.

During the game, one of our players crushes one to DEEP R/C field close to the sidewalk but you can't see because the field slopes down. The CF and RF converge on the ball. RF waves his arms BUT the CF plays it and throws it to the cut-off.

Does the fact that one of the players played it negate the arm waving? The ump had no way to see where the ball was when it was played.

If the player picks up the ball and throws it back toward the infield before the ump can verify that it went out of play....play on.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
If the player picks up the ball and throws it back toward the infield before the ump can verify that it went out of play....play on.

Unfortunately, that's not how it happened. AFTER our hitter scored (HR), the ump went out to presumably see where the ball was. He didn't even ask the RF or CF to clarify, he just called it a GR Double and sent the hitter back to 2B.

Sorry that happened to your team.

At my pre-game conferences I stress to the coaches that if a player puts his hands up because a ball went out of play he must also leave the ball alone.

There are times that the base ump can see from the infield that the ball bounded or rolled out of play and there isn't any need to go out to check. There are other times, as in your case, where the ump will need to go to the area in question to verify that the ball actually rolled out. If the player picks up the ball this removes any chance that the ump can verify the dead ball...and asking the outfielders is not the way to verify.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
If the player picks up the ball and throws it back toward the infield before the ump can verify that it went out of play....play on.

yep, if I can't verify it was out of play, it must have never been out of play.