has anyone heard of this before- ethical practice?

I know of D3 assistants who are travel coaches. There aren't any rules about travel teams poaching players. It's free enterprise.  It's also unethical.  Unless the team is getting every player to college of their dreams it will catch up with the team and coach. 

What amuses me is if your kid takes one lesson at an academy they take credit for his college placement. 

No I didn't ask if some of your programs players left to play Summer ball w this coach. How many from his Summer team go on to play at his College?  

What level is this assist/coach? d1, D2, or D3?

if kids r not interested in his college, or are very happy w your program why would they switch? Is this coach promising them a college spot?

If this is a D1 program, even if it is an assistant coach, it could be walking on ice with the NCAA.  Son played for a D1 assistant when 13U-14U, but the coach had to leave the college once the players hit high school.  This is considered "contact".  

Be careful.  Rick needs to pipe in.

joes87 posted:

I will say, I am not a lawyer but from my understanding...

 

From a law perspective, its legal.  There is no law that prohibits competition between amateur private baseball enterprises in this country.  Now, is there an NCAA regulation against a coach running a separate private travel team?  No idea.  If there is then he is in violation of it, but other then report him to the NCAA there is nothing you can do under the law.  Its no different then another travel team poaching your kids.  There is no legal protection under the law that says they must play with you.  In fact its the opposite.  Kids are free to play for whomever they wish. You could try having the kids sign a contract saying that they will stay with you, but I would assume that it won't hold up in court, similar to how the courts have ruled against non-competes and watered them down over the years.  Or how the courts have ruled that LL baseball can not restrict a kid from playing in another organization while they are playing for LL.

 

Im surprised you have not run into the poaching of your kids before.  It happens in travel ball.  Maybe not in mass numbers, but coaches go after other kids all the time.  If you program is good enough and doing the right things for the kids then you shouldn't worry about them leaving.  If you are not getting kids in the right spots to be noticed by the college guys then you are going to need to find a way to step up your game as this will happen as the kids will go to the teams that they feel will give them the greatest chance to get them in front of the guys who can let them play in college.

You say:  'poaching' is done "all the time" - True -  but is that what you are calling in the circumstance that I described. -these kids gave PERSONAL information to a 'College Camp' be given to COLLEGE Coaches with the anticipation to PLAY COLLEGE BALL! You say right there  in your own words: "If you program is good enough and doing the right things for the kids then you shouldn't worry about them leaving. .............as the kids will go to the teams that they feel will give them the greatest chance to get them in front of the guys who can let them play in college."   **** that's what we have been doing -- re-read my post--my partner CALLED to MAKE SURE the College Coaches were definitely going to be there.  ****  

Look I'm not worried weather or not the kids he approached are going to leave our team and go to his.  I know our organization teaches these young guys so much more.... not only about baseball, but integrity, respect, friendship, sportsmanship, about being a team.  We teach them to respect authority, respect the game, respect each other, respect themselves.  We teach the value of an education as well as a good game of baseball.

We want only whats best for these kids....no matter 'which' team/organization fits better.

No...I'm not worried about that, my question was is there a rule or reg? 

keewart posted:

If this is a D1 program, even if it is an assistant coach, it could be walking on ice with the NCAA.  Son played for a D1 assistant when 13U-14U, but the coach had to leave the college once the players hit high school.  This is considered "contact".  

Be careful.  Rick needs to pipe in.

I believe  that this is correct.   University of Miami lost scholarships because one of the coaches was involved either on a team or at a facility with HS players off campus. He got ratted on by parents.

D1 has its own set of rules, not sure abour other divisions. And being ethical has nothing to do with the business of baseball.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Let me get this straight.

 

This travel team called to confirm that 9 head coaches were attending.  One of these Head Coaches is trying to poach players.

 

So, the Head Coach can't call a kid while the kid is in 10th grade without being in violation territory, but he can poach him for a travel team?  Huh?

what a 'cheesey' way to get their 'personal' information!

joes87 posted:

I will say, I am not a lawyer but from my understanding...

 

From a law perspective, its legal.  There is no law that prohibits competition between amateur private baseball enterprises in this country.  Now, is there an NCAA regulation against a coach running a separate private travel team?  No idea.  If there is then he is in violation of it, but other then report him to the NCAA there is nothing you can do under the law.  Its no different then another travel team poaching your kids.  There is no legal protection under the law that says they must play with you.  In fact its the opposite.  Kids are free to play for whomever they wish. You could try having the kids sign a contract saying that they will stay with you, but I would assume that it won't hold up in court, similar to how the courts have ruled against non-competes and watered them down over the years.  Or how the courts have ruled that LL baseball can not restrict a kid from playing in another organization while they are playing for LL.

 

Im surprised you have not run into the poaching of your kids before.  It happens in travel ball.  Maybe not in mass numbers, but coaches go after other kids all the time.  If you program is good enough and doing the right things for the kids then you shouldn't worry about them leaving.  If you are not getting kids in the right spots to be noticed by the college guys then you are going to need to find a way to step up your game as this will happen as the kids will go to the teams that they feel will give them the greatest chance to get them in front of the guys who can let them play in college.

You say:  'poaching' is done "all the time" - True -  but is that what you are calling in the circumstance that I described. -these kids gave PERSONAL information to a 'College Camp' be given to COLLEGE Coaches with the anticipation to PLAY COLLEGE BALL! You say right there  in your own words: "If you program is good enough and doing the right things for the kids then you shouldn't worry about them leaving. .............as the kids will go to the teams that they feel will give them the greatest chance to get them in front of the guys who can let them play in college."   **** that's what we have been doing -- re-read my post--my partner CALLED to MAKE SURE the College Coaches were definitely going to be there.  ****  

Look I'm not worried weather or not the kids he approached are going to leave our team and go to his.  I know our organization teaches these young guys so much more.... not only about baseball, but integrity, respect, friendship, sportsmanship, about being a team.  We teach them to respect authority, respect the game, respect each other, respect themselves.  We teach the value of an education as well as a good game of baseball.

We want only whats best for these kids....no matter 'which' team/organization fits better.

No...I'm not worried about that, my question was is there a rule or reg? 

Please answer my ?

1.what division is this guy w in College?

2. Have any of his Summer players gone on to his college to play?

thank you

There is a difference between "ethical" and "legal."  Assuming there was no restriction on the sign-up form as to the privacy of the information, they can probably do whatever they want with it legally, including sell it to marketers, spammers, etc.  There might be an element of fraud If it was the problem coach who set up the camp and misled the participants into signing up only so that he could get their info, but not likely if he goes ahead with the camp and delivers what was promised.  

You could take it up directly with the offending coach, pointing out that this is a bit slimy, and perhaps he should only call players who are not already with other organizations.  Or, you could inform the camp director and/or another coach at the college that this is happening, because I don't think either would like it very much that this guy is abusing their trust (and business or college reputation) for his own commercial purposes.  In any event, because of all the various connections that coaches have, I'd be careful to not stir up hard feelings.  Keep it calm and cordial.     

Tree,

In our area, everyone knows about the different club options and all of the good players have been approached by or have had discussions with someone from all of the clubs at one point or another.  The players try to join the best club they can.  As their skills change or as they become disgruntled with the current club, they look for a better one.  If you are providing what they need, you have no reason to be concerned about what the other guys are doing.  As you have already experienced, do the right thing and they will want to be in your organization.  It is particularly easier when the other guys are not doing the right thing.  So, I would suggest not being concerned with what the other guy is doing.

It is also quite common that when a player signs up for a camp or showcase, he starts getting invites to other camps and showcases.  My point here is that it seems fairly common for those lists to be shared for other baseball-related purposes.

So, I think the only question here is how much of a conflict are we talking.  Is this an assistant at a local lower-level college or a volunteer asst at a college who needs to be involved with the club scene to make a few bucks?  Or is this a well paid HC or established assistant at a reputable larger school?  Also, is it possible that this is an automatic thing where he or someone in his club organization enters contacts from any source they can get them?  If you think this is an established assistant who is clearly overstepping his bounds, maybe you write a letter to his HC.  But I strongly suggest you are sure of your facts before you decide to put the guy's job in jeopardy.  I see that you have had your issues with this guy for a few years now but you still don't want to derail his career if it is not warranted.

Seems pretty sleazy, but the youth travel ball industry is full of sleazy operators. 

My only remotely similar experience is that my son once played for an organization that practiced at a local university.  I wasn't privy to the ins and outs of the arrangement between the school and the head of the travel organization.  But you got the sense that  it was a very sweet deal.  The coach ran a very successful summer camps for the kids up to age 12  at the school.  (The school itself ran camps for older kids.)

The youth camps were a very hot local item and may still be, but I've lost track of whether it is still going or if it is run by the same guy.

Tons an tons of kids attended every summer.  Must have made both him and the school a lot of dough.  

Now I'm guessing that part of his deal with the school -- at which he was once a coach  --  was that in exchange for running these youth summer camps -  he not only got his cut but also got to use their amazing facilities for his travel teams.  

In the early days, the  organization had teams ranging from I think  9U - 14U.   Then his first cohort of 14U players wanted to continue playing with that organization as they advanced to 15U/16U.  But players were told that in  order to do that, because of NCAA regulations, the travel organization would either have to pay the school  what the head of the travel organization regarded as an  exorbitant amount of money (and so player fees would have to go way up)  or he would have to find another place for his older teams to practice (and give up one of his main drawing cards -- those  outstanding facilities.  He eventually took the latter option, if I recall.  

Since I don't really know the ins and outs of the arrangements  between the travel head and the school, I'm not exactly sure what this all meant.  But my surmise at the time was  that any travel team run by a coach in any way connected with an NCAA institution has to be strictly separated from the school and cannot  be used  as a way around the recruiting rules.  

Maybe Tree is busy w work, out of town, or something came up. Hopefully we can get a clearer picture of  situation here, like division of college coach, how may summer kids make it to his college team

maybe we'll get ? Answered or at least an update on how camp went for the players and how many are changing to college coaches Summer team