Has PG significantly increased the talent playing at the college level?

I don't specifically know the answer to this.  I'm not even sure if it can be objectively measured.  But, I would think so.  As I stated on the other thread, scouts and recruiters have the opportunity to see more players in closer proximity, with players from a more diverse geographical area.  I would think this would increase the pool of players they are able to see.  With a bigger pool of players, they have more to choose from.  And you would think that with a bigger pool, they would be able to choose the better players from that pool.  

 

I think local schools will still be able to choose the best from their area and those top kids from the local area will still have the opportunity to go to Local State U.  But, I think in terms of filling the middle to end of the roster, the players will probably be better, leading to depth of talent on the team.  Previously, Local State U would get the studs from the state and a bunch of local players.  They may never have known about Johnny Baseball from two states over.  But if they saw Johnny Baseball at a PG event they attended, they may just sign him.  Local Johnny may not make the team because of that, but I would say Johnny Baseball was a better player than Local Johnny, or Local State U would not have signed him over Local Johnny.  If the same thing happens all over the country, I would think the overall depth of all the programs would be increased.

 

It makes logical sense, but is it happening in practice?  I don't know for sure.

That is a silly question.  PG doesn't have any bearing on a kid's talent.  It is the kid, his passion, work ethic, and genetics that determines his talent.

 

What PG (and their competitors) have done is add efficiency to the marketplace.  Instead of going from town to town, coaches can not go to a few places and see 100's of potential players.  For players, instead of going from school to school, they can go to a few places and see 100s of potential schools. 

 

It allows the talent to diversify - players and coaches are able to cast a larger net.  And it allows players to bypass the "gatekeepers" and provide an unfiltered view to potential coaches. 

In order to do that PG would have to be in the talent development business. I don't see that and don't think they see that as their role. 

 

As others stated they help identify as well as provide avenues for coaches to evaluate. 

What about all the kids from Iowa that never got a shot until the mid 90's.  PG opened the door for them to be exposed.  I would assume others as well.

 

If PG has enabled new talent to make it into college that would have been overlooked than one could argue they have increased the talent pool at the college level.  Those 100 kids from Iowa had to push 100 kids out.  You would assume the 100 kids pushed out were lower talent correct?    

I would think that increased scouting efficiency would lead to fewer misplaced athletes (whether under or over projected), which on the whole ought to lead to a slightly higher general talent level, but I don't think that effect would be as significant as other factors that normally come into play (like the opening and closing of programs or funding for programs).

 

I think it's also possible that the increased amount of money it takes to be in the recruiting game due to the growth of the travel/showcase industry would have a weakening effect on the talent pool, though it's entirely possible that would be outweighed by the benefits of the extra development and competition offered.

 

I don't know that there would really be any easy ways to study/quantify those effects. My gut feeling is that the travel/showcase industry as a whole is just effectively siphoning funds out of prospects/families without there being a net benefit to the group as a whole. We could maybe quibble about whether that's primarily due to too many people on the tail end of the curve having unrealistic expectations/poor objectivity, while the relatively tiny group on the good side of the curve do end up better off than they would have in the past.

Great question.  Have they increased the talent level overall, or is it simply that the scouts/recruiters job is easier?

Keep in mind, I don't think we're talking about PG increasing the talent level of individual players.  But talking about increasing the overall depth of talent playing college baseball.  As real green stated, those 100 Iowa players that are playing now, that weren't before had to replace 100 players that may have been playing because those 100 Iowa guys weren't.  You would think those 100 Iowa players are better than the players they replaced, therefore increasing the depth of talent playing college baseball.

 

It is a sound question for me.  One that I'm not sure can be objectively measured, but one that makes logical sense.

I understand what you meant based upon this statement, my answer is yes. They have given an opportunity for those who do live in places like Iowa, etc an opportunity to be seen threw their tournaments as well as drafted more than in previous years, or just by word of mouth or referred to coaches from everywhere threw their scouting staff. 

 

FWIW, Kevin O'Sullivan has a pitcher on his staff that is expected to be a first rounder next year, AJ Puk from Cedar Rapids.  Do you suppose without PG existing he would have found his way on a SEC roster? AJ had a lot to do with the success of UF last year, and I doubt very much if he went to a D1 university he would have had the instruction he has had to make him a first rounder.

 

real green,

Maybe you will begin to understand that PG does have a lot more to do with the success of many players than any other organization. 

I think the elite tournaments -- PG and others, but perhaps PG most prominently --shouldn't be left out of the equation here.  I think the availability of the level of national  elite competition has  played a significant role in incentivizing  kids to actually develop their talents. If you have the opportunity to play against the best more often, you need to work that much hard to prepare yourself to be able to compete against the best. That has made for something of an "arms race" in the training of young baseball players.  Not claiming that  PG is solely or even mainly responsible.  But as a major player within both the showcase industry and the tournament industry that enjoys real street cred with both college recruiters and mlb  they have definitely played a role in not  just enabling talented  kids to display their talents but in incentivizing them to work to develop their talents more fully. 

FWIW, let's talk about a real life example. Up until the fall of '13, my son was virtually unknown outside of our local area. We are from small town USA. Son had played in several PG tournaments and attended a PG showcase in south FL earlier that summer. He had received one offer from a mid major, which confirmed to us he had the talent to play somewhere post HS. He was invited, and accepted, to play with a nationally ranked organization. This again gave us some validation. It wasn't easy as we live 3 1/2 hours away. We made the sacrifice. Summer of '14 I sent him off to live in Atlanta with a teammate that graciously offered him a place to stay. At PG 18 WWBA in July '14, his life changed. After one inning in that tournament and 5 innings the following week in the PG 17 WWBA, he was offered a scholarship to his "dream" school. Now as I have said before, PG had zero to do with son's talent level. But, PG had almost everything with his receiving the offer. After those outings, son was invited to East Coast Pro and received interest and offers from almost every SEC / ACC school in the southeast. The interesting thing is only one of the in-state big U offered him money. It was a VERY good offer that was hard to turn down. Son just didn't feel it was the right fit. This offer was better than the one he accepted, but his dream school was better fit. Son also just wanted to get away from home and develop his own identity. So, while I cannot quantify exactly how much PG had to do with son's scholarship, I can say with certainty PG played a role. His school is three states away and most likely would have never heard of son without PG. I know this is only one example, but I bet there are numerous others. I just know from very personal experience that PG organization played a huge role in my son's baseball career and I will forever be grateful to Jerry Ford. I still look forward to the day I can meet him in person and shake his hand while I look him in the eye and say "Thank you".

I don't know?  AJ Puk was 6'6" 205 LHP throwing 92 in HS.  It's hard for me to believe he needed much help??

That is a great story.  It sounds like you have a very talented son.   

Most of the stories about being helped by PG events are about pitchers. Do outfielders, first basemen, MIFs, get the same attention?

 

No, because talent is not linear.  After the top 5-10% "can't miss" guys (who always got recruited), the other 90% have some weaknesses.  They essentially become interchangeable parts.  Coaches will decide who they want based on their baseball philosophy.  Some like speed, some defense, some offense, etc.  It really becomes about finding the right fits.     

So, say this statement is true, if a coach can fill his team with "better fits", does the team not become better?  Could that not be considered PG helping the overall quality of College teams?  Just asking.

My son's an OF-- and he was definitely helped by the Jupiter PG event. 

Do you think that if he played on AL he would have gotten a scholarship all the way down to FL?

I am trying to figure out what your point is as well as the purpose to your posts.

Do you not believe that players don't find their way onto a roster by the exposure that is available at PG events? how many stories do you have to hear to understand that your statement you made about PG not existing is pretty non accurate.

 

How about you identify yourself (not by name) as to who you are, a player or a parent a coach or whatever, so we can better understand your intent.

So let me ask you this.  Was your kid "discovered" at PG?  Or did he have contact with his dream school (and others) and invite them to see him play at PG? 

 

If PG didn't exist, how could your approach have been different to get in front of the dream school? 

 

 

AJ played for us (EvoShield Canes).  Without playing in PG's leagues and local showcases, we never would have heard of him.  Without our playing in PG's tournaments, Sully may never have seen or heard of him...even though AJ is 6'6".

I don't believe you can distinguish between "better fits" after the top guys.  It probably comes down to the dreaded "intangibles." 

Just a dad.  No point to prove.  Some baseball blood.  Wife's grandpa was a scout for 25yrs.  Father In law played MiLB for a few years.  Close family friend ran an Independent team in Oregon through the 80's.  I played HS ball and got the fumes disease.  Brother played for a top JC college before hanging them up.  Close cousin went the JC, D1 route.   

No, I don't think AL would have done anything for AJ Puk.  His talent would have and did.  If his target goal was to play for a SEC, I don't think it would have been very difficult for him to find a home with his talent without PG.  I am sure many kids get placed through PG I just don't buy that they wouldn't have landed in a good situation without PG.

 

I also don't understand why PG is held so much higher than UA BF when they sleep in the same bed.  

 

 

Golfman, in full disclosure we had had previous contact with dream school. Son attended a prospect camp there the fall of '13. The PC did see him at the camp and told him after the camp he liked what he saw but needed to see son in live game setting. He asked son for summer schedule. He also did inform son that he would be attending the game that son pitched in the 17U PG WWBA. My point was there were many, many other schools that son had never had any contact with whatsoever they called and offered or wanted to set up a visit to offer. Also, son would never have received the invite to go to Syracuse for ECP. We did our due diligence. I would never tell anyone to just go play in PG event and you will get offered. But I firmly believe if you posses the necessary talent, you could just show up at a PG tournament and you would not be missed. You may not get the attention from your specific school of interest because they could be watching a different game. But there is no way, in my opinion, if you have college talent you would be missed at one of the regional or national PG events.

 

My son has been to both.  There is a significant difference.

 

real green, I think for the top guys, ie. guys who would be rated a 10 by PG (not that they have to be rated by PG, but just as a reference point), they would find a home no matter what.  Maybe a guy from Iowa would not have wound up at an SEC school, but he would wind up at a D1 school somewhere.  For these guys, it's a matter of where they would wind up playing, not if they would be playing.  In my mind, it is the guys below the 10s that PG helps the most.  It helps the 2nd tier kids get in front of more recruiters than they would be able to get in front of without PG.  That is not to say that they don't have to do their homework as well.  They still need to promote themselves and make schools aware that they have an interest.  But that 2nd tier kid (who rates an 8.5 - 9.5) from Iowa would probably never get to Georgia to visit UGA or GaTech coaches if he did not go to a WWBA event in Georgia.  I'm sure his family would not make a random trip to UGA to go to a camp there out of the blue, and I would venture to say that UGA would not travel to Iowa to randomly look for players there.  But, thanks to the events PG puts on, both can wind up at the same place at the same time and "discover" each other.  PG did nothing to develop this kids talent.  The kid had the talent.  But, they provided a venue for this kid to play in an event in which recruiters would be there to see him play.  And therein lies the benefit.

 

Not sure what else I can say about all this.  PG provides a place for many players to play in front of many scouts and recruiters.  That is the benefit, plain and simple.  It gives kids from different areas of the country exposure to schools from around the country.  It gives recruiters the opportunity to see players from around the country that they may not otherwise have had exposure to.  

Of course Puk's talent got him the scholarship. I may be wrong but I will bet you a lot of money he was turned in the right direction as to who to play for, just as I received the same advice years ago from PG. 

PG staff is Jerry ford, the original founder of PG and a supporter of our site as well. 

 

No, I dont always agree with him or some of the business side of the business of travel baseball.

But I do know lots of folks that have been helped out by him because his is a baseball man first.  I am not talking monetary, but if you need some help in finding a home, Jerry ford would make it his business to see what they can do based upon what he and the staff have seen. Do you need a rating to get noticed, absolutely not.  

 

So actually, does that put him in the same bed as UA or BF? Do they supply the human element.  Do they supply hundreds of scouts and college coaches of every level at their tournaments?  When my son threw in WB tourney his HS draft year, there were no less than 50 guns at him at the same time. That alone saved a lot of time and effort going to pre draft work outs, etc, but at that time he had more or less decided he was going to college first.

 

I feel that you are just trying to stir up some controversy, I have said what I have to you, as well as others have too,  yet I can see that much of it is just a waste of time and bandwidth.

This stuff gets old at times.  If someone really wants to know, information can be found. Whether it is AJ Puk or Carlos Correa or whoever. They all have families and friends.  If someone really wants to know, it's actually easy to find out.

 

Anyway, regarding AJ Puk, he pretty much grew up in our facility.  Received instruction, played in PG Leagues and other events since he was in grade school.  He did end up throwing in the 90s while in HS, but when Kevin O'Sullivan got interested, AJ was a sophomore and had never touched 90mph.  It was his command and competitiveness that stood out, both on the mound and as a hitter. For that to stand out, it took the right stage.

 

real green,

We sleep in our own bed!  Always have and always will.  Still trying to figure out what you   are trying to accomplish here.

If you produce you won't be missed. Son's teammate who is OF played great in Atlanta. 3 monster HRs and threw a couple kids out. Went from national unknown to picking up several offers including one from a recent CWS winner. 

I am just discussing the current process.  Recruiting services such as PG have done a great job and created an industry that seems to be thriving. 

 

25yrs ago, if a player had college/mlb talent he didn't need to spend thousands of dollars to be seen.  It seems the biggest beneficiaries of todays system are the recruiters/scouts and the recruiting business.  While I don't know what kind of fees they pay, it seems colleges/recruiters are the ones that should be financially supporting the system.

25yrs ago 99% of D1 talent played D1 ball and paid little to nothing to get recruited.

Today 99% of D1 talent plays D1 ball and paid thousands to get recruited through recruiting services such as PG.

Is this an inaccurate statement? 

 

Again, PG events are top notch professional operations.  It can be argued the baseball experience is worth the price of admission.  I have complimented PG Staff on past threads and admire what he has done.  I am not trying to bash PG. 

Real green, technically, it is an inaccurate statement. PG is not a recruiting service. They are a company that provides showcases (mostly for grading purposes) and they put on tournaments. A recruiting service would be an organization that you pay to promote a player to MLB teams or colleges to try and secure a scholarship or roster spot for that player. PG does no such thing. If a player does not want to pay to be evaluated in a showcase environment (I believe they charge $650 for this service), then there really is nothing PG charges a player. What they do charge is a team entry fee to play in a Perfect Game tournament. Teams will usually pass that cost on to the players on the team, but PG does not charge the players to play in the tournament. Maybe this is where some of the misunderstanding is coming into play.

That sounds just like Sully, the very best college recruiters watch many players for years. 

I just don't think that real green understands how recruiting works these days, he is comparing things to 25 years ago, its so different, even different than when DK was recruited, even by Kevin O'Sullivan!!!!

And one does NOT have to spend thousands to secure a scholarship, but rather have to  approach it as a business venture with a plan. Its not that easy to do, so people end up spending more than they have to. 

 

I wouldn't worry about it , you really don't have anything to prove to anyone.

Seeing that you put that so nicely, I think I will respond.

 

The talent level at the top level colleges is better than ever these days. 

 

Most importantly, it is much better for the talented player these days.  Fewer players are being missed.  Players are receiving multiple offers which increases their leverage and gets them more $$$$.  Players with special talent tend to go higher in the draft, again receiving more $$$$.

 

The thing that causes the above is that now days recruiters and MLB scouts get to see those talented kids compete against other talented kids more often than ever before. When recruiters and scouts see this, they have more important information to go by.

 

The thing many don't understand is this is not a situation that leaves those less fortunate players out of the picture. I could name many poverty stricken kids that we have found over the years.  You see, first and foremost, we are a scouting service.  We have over 60 fulltime people trying to find the most talented kids in the country or world, for that matter. Once we identify them, we do everything possible to get them to an event.  NCAA rules make some things impossible, but there are several ways we can, and do, help those players.  Funny thing is, one of the major ways we can help is by getting them involved in travel baseball. The same travel baseball that is getting bad mouthed by some has uncovered and exposed so many of these talented kids that don't have the resources to do everything it takes to be recognized.

 

Yes, most Travel teams have a cost associated with playing.  For those that can afford that, no problem.  But many of the best teams will pick up a player or two that is extremely talented and help him out.  In the end that player becomes a magnet for recruiters and scouts.  When that happens every other player on that team benefits greatly because they end up playing in front of a larger audience of decision makers. If you paid a couple thousand to play on a summer team wouldn't you want a potential first round pick on your team? So what if he didn't have to pay, it simply makes the money you spent a better investment.  BTW, this happens a lot.

 

Also keep in mind that there are some of the best "travel" teams that don't charge their players.  They cover the cost for the entire team.  It takes talent, not money, to play on those teams.

 

So now days when you are watching television, don't ever believe that these kids all came from well to do families.  And when we are wiorking 365 days a year to find the best possible talent, don't think for a minute that we care about how much money those players have. If all the players needed to be wealthy, college and MLB would look much different than it does today. We have had a lot of very poor kids come through PG that are now very famous and wealthy baseball players.

 

So our #1 job is identifying talent. We have done it for 20 years, much longer in my case, and we identify that talent even if they never attend a PG event. So NO, it's never been about the money.  But if you do things the right way, for the right reasons, money seems to be there.  I personally never want a bad player at a PG event. I don't want their money.  When I once in awhile see one, I feel bad for the kid and I feel bad for PG.  Because I know we can't help that young kid.

 

It bothers me when I see a bad team in one of our tournaments.  It especially bothers me when these teams are formed simply to make a lot of money. Teams that will take any player that is willing to pay the fee.  Sure they play against other talented teams, so there are scouts around, but there is no interest in their team or their players. In many of our larger events we do not invite the team back the following year. You see it's not just about the money, it is about the quality.  It's all about the talent!

 

Also, most people have no idea about how much PG spends every year trying to promote the game and give players every opportunity possible.  Lucky for us, college coaches and MLB front offices are our biggest supporters.

 

The PG All American Classic we just finished in San Diego costs us around a million dollars each year.  All the proceeds from that game go to the Rady's Childrens Hospital. We think it is a great promotion for high school baseball.  Once again, one out of every three players that have been in that single game has ended up being a first round pick. Not because of that game, but because that is how good the talent is.

 

Lastly, as most here know, there is a ton of talented baseball players.  There have been many surprises over the years.  Because of those surprises people tend to think that sooner or later every player will get found.  I bet nearly every one here has seen or known a talented player that was not found!  I used to see lots of them and that was the reason PG exists today. In a perfect world we would find them all and that is exactly what we are trying to do.

PG, you present Perfect Game much better than I do.   I just hope I am not misrepresenting you in the statements I make!!

bballman,

 

Your comments are always appreciated, as are others that support what we do.

 

Everyone has their own opinions regarding PG.  Most of the naysayers have never been to an event.  That always bothers me because they can't possibly understand unless they have been there.  Not everyone that goes to a PG event leaves happy.  We simply can't make everyone happy.  However, I think all of those that have a lot of talent, do leave happy.

PGStaff:  "That always bothers me because they can't possibly understand unless they have been there."

 

Finally! Here is something from PG I can disagree with.

 

Neither my son nor I have ever been to a PG event. Yet its value is clearly seen in the experiences of a family friend whose talents are very similar to my own son's. My son's friend has been a member of a select travel team since the age of 13 and that group plays in several of the major PG events. The result is that the friend has had much more experience playing against the best competition and more exposure to college scouts than my son has had playing in several local lower tier tournaments a year. The result is the friend has landed a roster spot with his dream school while my son, a 2016, is still heavily laboring in the recruitment process.

 

To be clear, this was a conscious decision we made early on because we chose to spend the time and money on other family goals. It should also be noted that my son will still likely end up at the level of baseball well matched with his current talent level. But the number of opportunities are going to be fewer and perhaps more importantly the timing of his exposure is definitely later (in some cases too late) than if he had participated in PG.

 

One can argue the personal value of the PG experience. It all depends on what the player has to show at a given point in time. But the value of having a large pool of top talent in the same place as a large number of talent consumers cannot be questioned. It creates tremendous opportunity for both groups.

 

It is possible even for a lower tier d1 talent player to achieve his desired goals outside of PG, but it takes a lot of work to make the connections and some luck to have them connect in a timely manner. PG takes a lot of the effort out of that by holding scheduled events where the players and the coaches are in the same place. I don't hold it against them that they don't do it for free.

 

It also appears that holding these events and events such as the PG All Star game increases overall interest in baseball, results in higher overall baseball related revenue and in time may increase baseball related opportunities as municipalities and schools realize providing baseball programs can bring them more players and students increasing their own revenue.

 

Thanks for your posts here PGStaff. I have learned a lot.

 

Good luck,

Ted

I'll add a couple comments to the straw-man argument that is the OP.

 

-The best playing against the best begets better ball players.

-The rational understanding of a player's "level" is better understood if you see him against the best, leading to more efficient decision on applying family resources to find the best fit school.  (rational is the key word)

-The talent being consolidated to PG events is more efficient to recruiters, leading to athletic department budgets being applied to scholarships instead of recruiting and travel for RC, scouts.  I do recognize this is cost shifting to the families.

The reality is that playing at the "next level" should be a meritocracy.  Back in the old days, it was not.  There where gatekeepers.  Whether it was the HS coach or the local legion coach.  They had limited spots.  Thus, there will minimal opportunities for the "unchosen" to take.  PG and the like changes all of that.  Basically anyone can come.  Those that perform have a shot at being seen and going to the next level.   

I'm wondering too if the talent pool at these events is diluted because of the pay to play. How much talent is over looked because families can't afford the cost of travel ball?  

 

I think the question could be asked; has youtube effectively increased the talent playing at the college level?

Not again. 

 

The answer? A heck of a lot fewer today than was once the case!

 

MANY travel programs and showcases offer "scholarships" to deserving (i.e. talented) players. It's often done quietly, in part because the group's officials don't want to call attention to the players who can't afford the full amount.

 

If your family or one you know has such a player in its midst, approach the organization in advance and explain the hardship. You might be surprised to find a sufficiently sympathetic ear that they'll make it possible for the player to take part on a financially satisfactory basis.

 

If your family or one you know has such a player in its midst and you fail to look into a the availability of a "scholarship," then recognize that you bear the responsibility of not knowing...and don't come on here whining because you or they feel excluded. 

This thread is annoyingly redundant with others from recent weeks.

 

We have a small cadre of members who meet the definition of fanatic (They can't change their mind, and they won't change the subject) and insist on finding something sinister or unfair or un-American or Un-apple pie about travel ball in general and PG events and showcases in particular.

 

PGStaff has been far more patient than anyone could be expected to in politely explaining, correcting, and clarifying his organization's positions and practices each time someone tries to tar PG and the industry with a broad brush.

 

Eventually, each thread loses its way to the point that moderators have to close it.

 

And then the uninformed, distorted slanders and innuendos surface in another thread.

 

We are done hosting this sort of thread.

 

This thread is closed.

 

If you want to whine about PG or travel coaches in general, do it elsewhere or start your own site.

 

By the way, this thread was slanted from its origin--asking people to evaluate an organization by a standard that isn't even part of its mission.

 

Enough is enough.  And we're at too much.