have you changed your opinion on the decision to sit Strasburg?

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
So many of you are comparing losing a key player for a stretch of a marathon season to losing him for a short five game high pressure series. That's apples to oranges. Just go ahead making all the excuses you want but Strasburg not starting two games in the heat of the playoffs while healthy is what cost Washington the playoff victory.

I wouldn't blame this on Strasburg opting to not pitch as it was obvious, he didn't agree with the decision. I don't know how someone can say it was explained from the start though when all summer it was argued how many innings he would be allowed and he seemed to have no idea as Rizzo was keeping that to himself.

This is the first time in the history of professional sports--at least since the World Series of 1919 where a team did not go all out to win a playoff series. This time it wasn't the players--just the team management.

Don't think that professional athletes don't have their psyches affected by what happens on the field--Donnie Moore killed himself over it as did the catcher Hershberger of the NL champion Reds in 1939.

ThreeBagger,
I am not sure you are giving "many" of us enough credit in the discussion. The Nats didn't lose Strasburg suddenly in the heat of a 5 game series.
This was pre-announced, pre-planned and they finished a significant part of September without him.
To suggest this situation compares and contrasts with Donnie Moore is a bit much for me and I would prefer not going toward that place.
I fully respect the opposing views but I am not suggesting anyone has a right answer or all the facts. None of us know what medical information caused the Nats to make this choice.
While some can look at the downside of where this might lead for the franchise, it is equally plausible to conjecture that the Nats all learn from the experience and with an additional year of experience, players like Harper, Zimmerman and others will be just that much better and pitchers like Gonzalez, Strasburg and others will be more focused and work harder and do what many teams do...come back better and stronger.
The basic question is how can anyone do anything other than speculate how Strasburg might have performed in an adrenaline pumping new experience. Which games would he have won that 25 guys could not. He is good, but he isn't like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax or Mickey Lolich in terms of experience and predicating success in the post-season.
If anyone wants to be concerned about next year for the Nats, my view it is about Ryan Zimmerman. He is their best player. He needs shoulder surgery. That is a possible major issue for a 3B, depending on the type and extent of the surgery. Even if he can recover and play 3B, it is questionable if he can by the beginning of the season in late March or early April of 2013.
I think this thread is a great discussion because there are no rights or wrongs, but many making valid points and arguments.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Seems so interesting that the Exec. Vice President and GM of the Nats who put this team together over the past 4-5 years all of a sudden doesn't know what he is doing.
It appears they might have done this last year with Jordan Zimmerman without such second guessing.
Zimmerman can back from TJ late in 2010.
In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

The Nats were not in the playoffs last year. I've said from the beginning that if they weren't a contender this year, then sit SS. When you have a chance to win it all (and they did this year with the best record in baseball), you don't sit your horse. That's why you play the game. That's why they pay SS a fortune - to win it all. Bad decision in my opinion. This year, under these circumstances, a bad decision.

All very good points and certainly there is plenty to debate on each side. But, the game is played by 25 and when one isn't there, others need to step up. The Giants lost Brian Wilson in the 1st month of the season and Melky with 45 games to go. Many stepped up and they played far better after the All Star game and Buster Posey stepped up like few ever have. Why isn't the discussion about Gio Gonzalez who is one of the best in baseball, was acquired by trade in January, was provided a 6 run cushion,and couldn't get the job done? In my view, this isn't about who didn't play, it is about who did and the Nats were in position to win with those who did play..and it didn't happen.

Your points are valid, when a player "goes down", the rest must step up. The SS discussion is different. SS didn't "go down". A decision was made to not play him when all indications were that he was healthy. That was a choice, not a necessity. As I've said, the reason you pay SS a TON of money is with the hopes that you get a run at a World Series title. The Nats chose to take him out of the equation. It was not a necessity, he did not "go down". I still think you use what you got when you have the opportunity. Those opportunities don't come around very often. I don't know the names right off hand, but I know there are a TON of Hall of Famers who never won a World Series. I believe there are even some who never made the playoffs. SS didn't go down, the Nats chose not to use him. I still think it was a bad choice.

Again, I don't have strong feelings to in any way criticize your perspective.
I will say that Melky didn't "go down" so there is some relationship and the timing isn't all that different. One might argue Melky at the time was a bigger loss to the Giants than Strasburg to Washington but I won't.
In my view, if the criticism of the decision by the Nats is the team won't get this chance again, then isn't it very premature to make any judgment? If, 5 years from now, Strasburg is injured, or if he is healthy but the team never gets another chance, that would probably cause me to reconsider my current views and position. If in 5 years Strasburg is healthy, winning 15-20 games, dominating and the Nats have played in the WS with him on the mound, I think the decision looks pretty solid.

Yep. It is all conjecture at this point, no one knows what will happen in the future. One thing we do know. The Nats chose to sit their stud this year - and they didn't make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs without him. Would they have moved on with him? We don't know. Would their chances have been better? I, personally, think so. After all, he is their stud and one of the best pitchers in baseball right now.

And the contrasting position could be the Giants didn't have any choice, but MLB and his conduct combined to make the choice to "sit" their stud and they played better afterward and won 3 games in Cincinnati(sorry justbaseball ) to become the very first to come back from 0-2 and on the road.

Great pitchers all want WS rings.

Cole Hamels, Roy Halladay, Adam Wainwrigh,t Chris Carpenter, Tim Lipscomb.

SS has to get in the game to meet this Top Pitcher self imposed requirement.

Can you imagine trying to keep one of the above out of a playoff start?

I don't think it could be done.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Great pitchers all want WS rings.

Cole Hamels, Roy Halladay, Adam Wainwrigh,t Chris Carpenter, Tim Lipscomb.

SS has to get in the game to meet this Top Pitcher self imposed requirement.

Can you imagine trying to keep one of the above out of a playoff start?

I don't think it could be done.

Uh, Tim Lipscomb???
Yup, I can imagine keeping him out of a post-season start since it just happened and might happen next week, too.

That's hilarious.

Infielddad,

Lolich didn't have much experience when he won three games in the 1968 series. Lolich was pretty much a nobody as it was all about Denny McLain that year. I know, I watched every game of that Series. Nobody predicted success for Lolich. Koufax in 1963 had less than three years as a regular starter in his first Series in 1963 and was lost the last third of 1962 with an injury. Everyone predicted the Yankees would bury him. I know, I watched the four game sweep. Gibson was just another good pitcher until he won in the 1964 Series. These guys did not have the high level college careers of Strasburg to gain "knowledge and experience" that Strasburg did. So using these guys as some kind of example like they were wily veterens and he isn't doesn't hold water. I wasn't comparing the Moore tragedy with Strasburg as much as showing that players psyches are indeed and have been vastly affected by on field and off field events as another poster stated that they aren't affected.

We don't know how this will play out in the future; maybe Strasburg and Washington will win five World Championships in the next decade. I just know ONE that they won't win because of the decision made by their General Manager. The three men mentioned above are legends precisely because they took the ball everytime money was on the table through injuries(Koufax) or whatever.

I dunno ThreeBagger.
Does the Strasburg "experience" in college at SDSU translate to the MLB experience and success that Koufax, Gibson and Lolich had before they were in a WS? I would probably take the view it doesn't for a number of reasons.
While you are absolutely correct about Koufax, we also know his career was cut short, far too short. Would his career have been longer without the extreme stress placed on his elbow? Would he trade for more longevity in his career and health afterward? Until now, no player or pitcher ever had that option because the pressure for the W has always been the over-reaching factor.
I am pretty confident you are not going to change perspectives this decision by the Nats GM is the reason the Nats lost.
Personally, I think the Nats put 25 guys out there and ended up one inning short from playing tomorrow. As the Giants showed, I subscribe to the view this is about the 25 who did play, not the one who didn't.
This is a fun discussion for me and I very much enjoy the differing perspectives, even the one about thigh high on the inside part of the plate about "Lipscomb."

ok spellcheck and went with it.. and it wasn't by choice or contract.

this whole SS when the truth get told is a contact issue wrote by Boras and agreed to at the time by the Nationals. After the spin settles.

I should have been...



St. Louis Cardinals: Speechless
49 mins ago by Craig Phelps

Joy R. Absalon-US PRESSWIRE

I despise journalist who write in first person. It’s cheap. It’s lazy. It’s unprofessional. It’s distracting. It undermines any meaning that the article once contained. Again, I despise it.

Apparently the St. Louis Cardinals do not realize this. They are forcing me to commit what I consider to be an act of treason. They are forcing this Midwestern journalist to write an article in first person.

Something incredible took place last night. I’m still not sure how to describe it. I woke up this morning in denial over its very occurrence. I thought it was a dream. How could something so improbable occur? How could the Cardinals win a do-or-die postseason game when twice being down to their last strike?

Then I remember.

It was as if the god of Cardinals baseball himself, whom bore a striking resemblance to Stan Musical, appeared before me. This mystic figure reminded me of last year.

He reminded me of the Birds coming back from 10.5 games down to make the playoffs.

He reminded me of Torty Craig.

He reminded me of the Rally Squirrel.

He reminded of what Tony LaRussa and the Cardinals did last year.

He reminded me of David Freese.

He reminded me of 2011.

I was speechless. It couldn’t be true. There’s no Pujols, no Dunan, and no LaRussa. It could not be true.

I rose from my bed, made my way over to the desk on the other side of the room, and booted up my computer. Last night could not have happened. There’s no way the Cardinals could come back from a 6-0 deficit, is there? There’s certainly no way they could do it in Game 5 of the NLDS. There is certainly no way a 24 year old kid from Owasso, Oklahoma could record the game winning hit.

Then Twitter reminds me. Facebook reminds me. The world reminds me.

It happened.

The Cardinals did it.

They won.

It all comes rushing back to me.

I was sitting in the bleachers of my former high school’s football stadium. My little sister was preforming in the band and pom squad for her senior year homecoming. I had an ear bud in my right ear with the game on.

I informed the fellow Red Bird faithful surrounding my father, mother, and myself that we were losing.

Groans took over the crowd.

My mother left after the half-time show. The Jerseyville Community High School Panthers were dominating their foes, the Highland Bulldogs. The Cardinals, on the other hand, were not.

Then something happened; Matt Holliday scored Carlos Beltran. It was a glimmer of hope.

Slowly, methodically the Cardinals clawed their way back into the game.

Smiles of hope began to overtake the crowd. Jerseyville defeated their Homecoming foes to win the Mississippi Valley Conference title. The Cardinals were making an improbable comeback.

My father and I rushed home to my parents’ house.

Ninth inning.

I’m at a loss for words on how to describe it. I’m still not 100 percent sure that it even happened.

The only thing I can think of is Game 6 of the World Series last year. That’s the only reasonable comparison I can draw to last night’s game.

I’m a journalist, I write for a living. I’m a freelance television production specialist; I work on the broadcast for the St. Louis Cardinals, Blues, and Rams for a living.

My life is every man’s dream. I get paid to watch sports. I get paid to talk about sports. I get paid to write about sports.

I’m writing an article in first person.

This team.

This city.

I’m speechless.


Read more at http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/...?DIkFrYoYxAxRcRIE.99

Okay Infielddad, we'll just agree to disagree! I'm just kind of passionate about this decision as I was really for Washington until they benched SS.

showme,
Not sure what your last post has to do with the discussion, am I missing something?

What's really funny is that some are saying the Nats blew it by not playing SS, but you seem to be defending the win, there should be no defending which team got the job done. The cardinals are amazing and an amazing organization.

My son played for them in the milb system for 5 seasons, I understand where they are coming from, they have an organization rich in history and strict in tradition, and the winning attitude starts at the top and goes down to the lowest level. Losing is not an option.

But it is not at all costs.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Okay Infielddad, we'll just agree to disagree! I'm just kind of passionate about this decision as I was really for Washington until they benched SS.

Three Bagger,
Your knowledge of baseball and the manner in which you post on this site has earned my respect, not that you needed that. I appreciate your perspectives and the passion and knowledge with which you convey them.

Thanks Infielddad, I also respect your opinions and we'll just have to see how this all turns out!

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
showme,
Not sure what your last post has to do with the discussion, am I missing something?

What's really funny is that some are saying the Nats blew it by not playing SS, but you seem to be defending the win, there should be no defending which team got the job done. The cardinals are amazing and an amazing organization.

My son played for them in the milb system for 5 seasons, I understand where they are coming from, they have an organization rich in history and strict in tradition, and the winning attitude starts at the top and goes down to the lowest level. Losing is not an option.

But it is not at all costs.

What I'm saying is any team that doesn't bring all the weapons to Championship Series.

1. Overestimate their talent
2. Underestimate the other team's talent
3. Lose series until they change


SS would not have been ask to do anything different than many have in the past. It's about his contract and what it says, not future concerns, cause the future is the playoffs..

The last post would a least indicate another relief choice might have been helpful.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
The last post would a least indicate another relief choice might have been helpful.

I don't believe that not having SS lost the game.

They went in yesterday with the same chance of advancing as the Cards.

Lots of mistakes made, pitching to Kozma, not realizing how dangerous the line up was coming up and not having a reliever ready when the game got too close.

quote:

Why be so negative? If you look at things negatively that is going to be how it is.

If you could please cut me a little slack. I am a lifetime member of the generational losing Pittsburgh Pirate fan base. I was cruelly witheld the opportunity of being a Cleveland Indians fan by a twist of fate. UHF Channel 33 from Youngstown, OH was a screen full of static snow on my dad's black and white tv. I could only get a glimpse of Buddy Bell at thirdbase every once in a while when the weather was just perfect.

Really, only a Chicago Cubs fan could understand the negativity with which I speak.

With regard to poor Steven Strasburg, how is one to get playoff experience, you know that experience that is so valuable in the post season, when one doesn't participate in the post season?

What value was it to have him dressed on the bench for each game? Was there ever an ice cubes chance that someone would actually put him in the game? Imagine how ridiculous he felt sitting there. More importantly than the losing, what if the Nats had gone the whole way and won the World Series without Strasburg? Imagine his son asking, "Hey dad, what game did you pitch in the 2012 World Series?" Ouch.....nice ring though.

I'm sorry for the back to back posts.......

One more thing. The very act of placing a pitcher on the mound and requiring him to pitch just one pitch is an event that risks a career ending injury either by throwing or being hit by a batted ball. To me it makes as much sense as telling your kid he won't be driving the last two months of the year because statistics show that the more miles you drive the more likely you will be in an accident. And then you believe that he/she will be safe the other ten months of the year.

The fact is pitching is inherent to injury. Sure you should not drive tired or distracted or drunk or when you distraught but under normal circumstances you are as likely to get injured in a crash any day of the year as any other. They are trying to protect Strasburg with bubble wrap like he's some kind of special egg with a thin shell and frankly if I was a pitcher on the staff I'd be saying, "Dang what am I chopped liver?"

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
If you could please cut me a little slack. I am a lifetime member of the generational losing Pittsburgh Pirate fan base.

Uh, ok now I understand.

OK, how's the Nationals decision to sit Strasburg last season looking now??  Not looking good for the Nationals to get anywhere near the playoffs this year.  Gotta grab the opportunity when it's there. 

That was Mike Shanahan's thought when he put RG3 out there with his leg dangling against the Seahawks last January.  How'd that turn out for RG3, Shanahan, and Redskins?   Not so good.

 

The players health & career is more important than the opportunity.  Other team members need to step up,  I follow the Nats closely, and I still think Rizzo did what was best for his player and organization.  I have a vastly different opinion of Shanahan.

Big difference is that Strasburg's arm wasn't dangling.  He was as strong as ever, the move was entirely precautionary.  I still say these guys are paid millions to play and should do that.  Washington (Nationals) had their chance last year - and who knows, it may have been their last.  I think we all know it isn't going to be this year any way.

I was having the same conversation with a buddy this week.

 

My guess, RG3 would go out there with 1 good leg... oh yeah, he did!  And nobody was going to stop him.

 

Meanwhile Stras, left his team hanging.  But at least his arm is healthy for this year.  Should be fresh next year too with no playoffs to worry about! 

 

You simply cannot buy championships.  Look at the standings right now... Tampa, Oakland & Pittsburgh are in 1st place.

 

A chance at the World Series may never come to Washington again (weren't they supposed to run away with the NL East this year?).  Hope Stras can handle that.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

Well said Rich

I respectfully disagree.  If anything, Nationals management left the rest of the team "hanging".   Though I do understand why they made the decision they made. As I recall it was never Strasburg's decision.  Management was protecting their "investment" and felt the remaining players were fully capable of doing the job.

 

 

Playing RGIII against the Seahawks in the playoffs was fine up to the point where Robert had reinjured his knee early in the game.  I know Robert felt he could still be competitive, but once it was apparent Robert was having issues leading the team, Shanahan should have gone with Cousins.  I was actually surprised he didn't.

 

For the Nationals, there was something magical about last season.  Unfortunately, the magic ran out.

 

And the Washington Nationals proved my point how stupid the people are who run that organization. What would be funny if Washington never makes it to the playoffs with Strasburg.

Its not that I disagree or agree that he should’ve been allowed to pitch at the end of last season, but I have to wonder just how much different things would have been.

 

Go to http://www.baseball-reference....rs/s/strasst01.shtml and compare last year’s number with this years. As you can see, nearly every stat is better or at least very close this season, yet he’s 5-9. And that against the entire ML, not just the whoever was in the playoffs.

Does that mean the Nats would have done any worse had he pitched? Nope. But it doesn’t look like they’d have done any better either.

 

I get it. A lot of fans are PO’d because a team they like stepped on their wingwang with their spikes because of what you see as a bad management decision. I’ve been the victim of a few of those myself, but ya just gotta get over it. As fans, we get to pitch a bitch about what we see as stupid decisions, but as far as I know, we don’t draw a paycheck for making the decisions, and we won’t be fired for making the wrong ones.

I can respect the decision, though I don't agree with it. There is no way of knowing what would have happened, but he was arguably their best pitcher. This was the playoffs and he appeared to be healthy.  The only time you will see a star pitcher over used in MLB... The play offs.  That is where you might see your franchise pitcher throw 3 games in a 7 game series. The playoffs are not the time for precautionary measures. Don't know that I have ever seen another case quite like this.  Almost always it's about using every bullet you have. I truly believe this was based on making a decision early on and sticking to it... Possibly for insurance policy reasons.

This very topic was brought up on Sports Center yesterday.  

 

John Kruk put it well (as he usually does)... "in baseball, you can't tempt fate."

 

50 years from now the decision to sit him may be part of baseball folklore if the Nationals organization never wins a World Series.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

Baseball is a game of chemistry and momentum as well as talent.  Washington had the momentum last year and they don't now.  It's not the same team in the same situation.  Sure SS has stats that are close to last year, but it's a different team in make up and in chemistry.  They're not hitting the ball like they were, they don't have the same chemistry.  That's why I said last year, you gotta go with him, it may be their only chance.  There are no dynasties like the Yankees or the Braves of the 90s.  Most teams get a shot at the playoffs and possibly the World Series once in a blue moon.  Maybe the Nats will get that chance again, maybe not.  I certainly don't think it was worth saving SS for this year.  Maybe next year.

Originally Posted by bballman:

…I certainly don't think it was worth saving SS for this year.  Maybe next year.

 

Well, I guess the only solution is that you buy a ML team and then you’d get to make all the decisions. Until then, you may boycott the Nats to show your displeasure, but other than that, its just another story to add to the millions of others that make up baseball lore.

Yeah, there's a good solution Stats.    Let's all go out and buy our own MLB team so we can discuss the decisions of the powers that be.

 

I'm not even a Nats fan.  I'm from Atlanta and am a Braves fan.  Nothing to boycott.  Just discussing the merits of the decision.

I looked up Jaime Garcia from the cardinals and he only pitched 163 inning the year he returned from TJS.  He now has undergone shoulder surgery, so it is apparent that secondary issues can pop up.  This is not uncommon.

 

Could there have been  an innings limitation, I would certainly hope so for young pitchers and I am assuming that they are based on recommendations by the surgeons.

 

I think that PG has brought up valid points, one being the playoffs often do more harm then good for most pitchers.  Think of all the pitchers who are not pitching this year because of past playoffs. I can name quite a few, can you?

 

IMO, it was a long season for most of the young Nats pitchers, there is no way they would have made it to the WS.

 

I still stand by the fact that it was a very wise decision to protect a very valuable player.

 

I find it amazing that there are those who respect or  justify the Natonals decision to sabotage a playoff run by sitting their ace. They are the dumbest bunch of people over there.

.

 

There is much more that goes into organizational decisions than the simplicity with which this scenario is approached publicly. While opinions on the specific decision are obviously welcomed in the general public, I'd urge you to reconsider calling every front office individual within the organization "stupid" and "dumb" because you may disagree with one decision that was made.

+1

 

So every team (whatever sport) should adopt a "win-at-all-costs" attitude? 

 

"Damn the torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead!"

 

Yeah, that will play out real well in the long run. 

 

Is there a chance the Nats may never see post season again?  Sure.  But there's also equally good chance they may return.  Not likely they way they are playing this year, but you never know.

 

The Nats management made the decision to limit Strasburg's innings well before the season started and well before they locked up a playoff spot.  There's no way they could foresee the team would do as well as they did.  Many preseason predictions had the Nats doing better, but playoffs were iffy at best.

 

Like it or not, MLB is a "business" and the Nats made a "business" decision.  And yes, as PGStaff pointed out, I do remember reading of "insurance concerns" as to why there was a limit put on Strasburg.

last time I looked except if you own the Marlins, the object of every season is to get to the playoffs and go as far as you can. If every team came to the conclusion that they would not go far in the playoffs so lets not give it 100% what would be the point in rooting for a team? We are no.1in business decisions even though we do not know when we will get back here? Doesn't make much sense to me when the object is to win as much as possible. I always thought winning was the best thing for the bottom line. And as far as the playoffs affecting pitchers, IMHO that is a red herring. The post season is what is played for. If not, then just throw a couple of bullpens and let everyone see what they will not see in crunch time. Doesn't make any sense. And now they might not even make the post season this year. Ask Ernie Banks and Billy Williams about that one. If you get the chance to go to the playoffs then take the bull by the horns, you never may get your hands on them again.