have you changed your opinion on the decision to sit Strasburg?

last year the braves had a great regular season...

it's the snipers you have to worry about, Go Cards.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I agree that one player can't be relied on to win a championship. But in a short series I like my chances a lot better with my top pitcher going twice. I'm sure the Tigers like it that Verlander is available.

BTW, If the Cardinals happen to win it all this year, it sure makes the regular season seem almost meaningless. I guess it kind of is anyway, other than just qualifying to get into the playoffs.

Would they have let him go twice?

Prime9,
My response was off of PG's. Would they have made that decision if they felt that they would be in this position, I doubt it.

The Nats are playing today with a purpose. It's good to see them step up, especially the pitching staff.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
last year the braves had a great regular season...

it's the snipers you have to worry about, Go Cards.

No sniping today!

Nattitude!

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Coach 2709,
Apology accepted.

quote:

My opinion hasn't changed. I agree with what they are doing at this point in time. However, I still believe they would have been better served to limit his innings more earlier in the season to have him available for the playoffs. I think they weren't really expecting to make the playoffs and backed themselves into a corner.

Hey I say we just chalk it up to great minds think alike.

Lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on. No one that speculates has any idea what the Nationals front office knows. Whether you completely agree with the decision or completely despise the decision, in the end the people with the knowledge and information at hand are the people deciding. Second guessing the best team in the game is ironic.

Ross Detwiler seemed to fill the role quite nicely today. Having a Cy Young candidate on the mound at home for game 5 isn't too bad of a situation either.

quote:

TPM asked....have you changed your opinion on the decision to sit Strasburg?

My opinion hasn't changed since the announced final decision. I'm convinced I don't know enough to make the decision. I do have confidence in Nats Ownership (Lerner family), management, and medical staff to make the right decision with their people investments. If anything they've erred on the side of caution, which isn't a bad thing IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
last year the braves had a great regular season...

it's the snipers you have to worry about, Go Cards.

No sniping today!

Nattitude!

I'm not saying this everyone else is...

"In Game 4, however, outstanding plate discipline was the Cardinals' undoing as home plate umpire Jim Joyce's wide strike zone created a new kind of ballgame.

Tennis, perhaps?

For a team whose patient batting approach is specifically designed to clog the bases with runners and pressure the opposing pitcher into making a juicy mistake, this new variable completely reversed the Cardinals' season-long approach at the plate.

No at-bat better illustrated this than Matt Holliday's eighth-inning showdown with Tyler Clippard, who struck out Holliday on just three pitches—all of which were well outside.

The Old Arbitrator", as Klem was known, gently told the pitcher, "Son, when you pitch a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know." (per Baseball Almanac, h/t wikipedia)

If only umpires today had such wisdom.

Though the quote is likely 80 years old, it still rings true today—major league hitters are paid to know the difference between balls and strikes, too. And they are usually very good at it.

That quote, in fact, could aptly describe the 2012 St. Louis Cardinals, who led the majors in on-base percentage (.338).

When pitchers throw strikes, they let you know."

The Nationals' pitching staff is quickly learning this. As Nats' reliever Ryan Mattheus told the Washington Post recently:

“They don’t swing at balls. They don’t really expand the strike zone very much. They don’t get out of their plan. You can tell when you face those guys that they have a plan. They don’t chase breaking balls. They don’t chase letter-high fastballs very often. They try to work and get into hitters’ counts. And they work for their pitch to hit and don’t give in to that very much."


In Game 4, however, outstanding plate discipline was the Cardinals' undoing as home plate umpire Jim Joyce's wide strike zone created a new kind of ballgame.


http://bleacherreport.com/arti...t-of-cardinals-hands


to win championship's you have to beat the other teams and the umps.

Could you imagine a conversation between Strasburg and Verlander?

V: "You are that guy thats saving your arm for the next time you make it to the playoffs, right? Hasn't it been like a hundred years since your team was there?

S: "Yep. But I'll be fresh. You are that guy that throws 200 plus innings a year and put your team on your back during the playoffs.

V: "Yep. Later. Got to get ready to throw again in case my team needs me. I'm ready to throw anytime, anywhere.

S: "I have a good seat in the dugout to watch my team."


Rich
PlayInSchool.com

quote:

Originally posted by PIS:
V: "You are that guy thats saving your arm for the next time you make it to the playoffs, right? Hasn't it been like a hundred years since your team was there?

S: "Yep. But I'll be fresh.

Ouch. That sums it up.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by PIS:
V: "You are that guy thats saving your arm for the next time you make it to the playoffs, right? Hasn't it been like a hundred years since your team was there?

S: "Yep. But I'll be fresh.

Ouch. That sums it up.

S : "Yeah But... I'm still good for the second hundred million.

V: "I make more money then God, but I still have not been able to buy a World Series ring. I'll pitch every game if I have to for the title!. Make sure you dont clap too hard from the dugout. Wouldn't want you to bruise something or get a hang nail."

I never areed with the nats thinking---- a couple of added thoughts

what is the damage to thekids mental frame


he can come to sprng training throw one pitch and his arm goes

I don't know what basis showme has for his statements about Boras being behind it, but IMO he's 100% on target. I heard an interview with Boras and while he talked around it, I was left with the impression that he had a major input on this and that very possibly this is all the result of an agreement with Boras.

One difference is that Verlander has been throwing the heat forever and has never had ANY issue, except a loss of velocity for a short period with no apparent injury. His first full season in MLB he pitched about 20 more innings than Strasburg did this year. Then his increase was gradual.

Keep in mind that last season was a lost one for SS.

Hey, at least the Nats still have a healthy SS sitting on their bench. Now he can really get some rest.

The baseball gods know.

TRhit,

That's what I've been thinking all along. You possibly severly damage an elite professional athlete's psyche when you tell him you don't need him to win...and of course then don't win. And I've been saying, the arm may go anytime, doctors not having a clue on how to prevent arm injuries outside of not pitching a guy. If it's about protecting "investments" then something is wrong with Washington's thinking as a professional sports franchise.

People will say it was the relief pitchers or lack of offense that cost the series and not the missing of Strasburg, but if believing that not having one of the top three pitchers in the game for two starts didn't make HUGE difference, then that just shows a basic lack of understanding of what makes a team. Washington went from being perhaps the best team in baseball to being just another playoff team.

Imagine the pressure on SS to stay healthy and get them to the post season again. What the Nats did gives you the same feeling as when you buy your kid a car and promptly watch them go out and back into a telephone pole. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nats are "cursed" for quite a long time. Maybe when SS gets to free agency, he goes to another team and beats the pants off them. You know that's the way it works in this game. Did someone sneak a goat into the game last night?

You have a 6-0 lead at home you should win.

On the other hand I wonder how the everyday players are thinking. The Nats had their best chance(not only chance) of winning with Strasburg. they play everyday to get a chance to get to the world series and a decision is made to sit their number 1 pitcher because of the future? Trhit says If it's about protecting "investments" then something is wrong with Washington's thinking as a professional sports franchise.
Well their investment will pitch next year. and the Nats will not play a game until next year.

hindsight is 20/20 but in a 5 game series you want your best on the mound in game 1 and 5.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Nats are "cursed" for quite a long time.

Why be so negative? If you look at things negatively that is going to be how it is. Perhaps that is what happened here, until the end the players believed that not having Strasburg hurt them. Something to think about.

The Nats did a great job of using Strasburg early and positioning themselves for home advantage. Seems like that was the main objective and that worked for sure. FWIW, not sure how effective he would have been coming out of the bullpen, different mind set, different routine he is not used to, that in itself can be harmful to a pitcher. Hopefully now, they will remove the kid gloves and let him loose.

Strasburg was given explaination from the beginning, what their plan was, so his psyche being damaged and not feeling wanted is ridiculous. He knows how valuable he is.

What you have is a contrast of two teams and how their psyche and gameplan works, plus experience. Defending champions lost important pieces early on, Carpenter, then Puma, then Furcal and just lost Garcia. Did it stop them? AW certainly didn't have his best game (returning from TJS he really struggled this year) did that stop them?

Losing the game was NOT Storen's fault, IMO, Gonzalez (potential Cy Young winner) really didn't have a good game (consistantly behind in the count) and hasn't pitched well since his complete game (funny how those things work). He was very lucky he had as much run support as he did. Can't beleive that the manager sat there and watched as the closer who probably lost a bit of an edge from the night before, loaded the bases and not experienced enough to get out of the jam facing the most patient of the Cardinal lineup, not sure why he didn't have anyone warming up.

The most brilliant move was Matheny replacing Molina with speedy Chambers when he got to 2b, NOT before. And consistantly using the same pitcher in the same spot to hold off the other team (in seventh) worked again.

By far the Nats have a more talented team than the Cardinals, who just know how to turn it around in these situation and understand that a 6-0 lead doesn't mean you are going to win and being behind 0-6 doesn't mean you will lose.

I just can't believe that having Strasburg would have made that much of a difference, as team often lose their aces, and often find ways to make up for that loss.

Jeesh, the Yankees lost Rivera (and CC for awhile) but they figured it out, so anything is possible.

I really thought that the Nats were going to pull it all off, it would have been a great story, however what the Cardinals did made for an even better one.

And I still haven't changed my mind!

Seems so interesting that the Exec. Vice President and GM of the Nats who put this team together over the past 4-5 years all of a sudden doesn't know what he is doing.
It appears they might have done this last year with Jordan Zimmerman without such second guessing.
Zimmerman can back from TJ late in 2010.
In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

Coulda, should, wanta... one team puts it all the line every series every game, and usually its the team that wins.

There's a reason the Yankees and the Cardinals have the most post season wins, and titles... they know this and live it from the start.

It's about play off baseball.

Compare Chris Carpenter to Stasburg what one did and what the other did. Oh you can't absolutely no comparison. One did all plus some, one didn't.

quote:

In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

Well, I think there is some truth to that. But I think it's also important to look at the hype. Who had heard of Zimmerman? Yea, he's a good pitcher and I think he'll have some great success in the years to come. Strasburg OTOH has been hyped since he was in college, he makes BIG money and is supposed to be an absolute stud. Big difference to me.

quote:

Compare Chris Carpenter to Stasburg what one did and what the other did. Oh you can't absolutely no comparison. One did all plus some, one didn't.

I'm not sure how much we can compare Carp and Strasburg. As someone noted earlier, Carp is nearing the end of his career whereas Strasburg (they hope) is just getting started. But I think you could compare Strasburg to Wainright. And Waino struggled last night, but he's out there getting it done one year after TJ.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

Well, I think there is some truth to that. But I think it's also important to look at the hype. Who had heard of Zimmerman? Yea, he's a good pitcher and I think he'll have some great success in the years to come. Strasburg OTOH has been hyped since he was in college, he makes BIG money and is supposed to be an absolute stud. Big difference to me.

quote:

Compare Chris Carpenter to Stasburg what one did and what the other did. Oh you can't absolutely no comparison. One did all plus some, one didn't.

I'm not sure how much we can compare Carp and Strasburg. As someone noted earlier, Carp is nearing the end of his career whereas Strasburg (they hope) is just getting started. But I think you could compare Strasburg to Wainright. And Waino struggled last night, but he's out there getting it done one year after TJ.

Yes you can ones a competitor at all cost, one has a boss as an agent.

One thinks hundred million is enough, one thinking of the second hundred million.

Carpenter from day one was about competing and the money will take care of itself, Strastburg is all about the money and doing a Pujols.

Ones all about himself, ones a team guy.

And yes Waino struggled, but you know what? he was in the game.

showme,

No one can compare Wainright, Carpenter to Strasburg, Zimmerman. You just can't. I would suspect that the Nats handle their guys differently depending upon what they have in their system because these guys are their now and next year. I don't think that anyone denies that teams like the Cardinals and Yankees with veteran players don't know how to get it done in post season.

Cards were able to replace what they lost in Carp and Wainright and Garcia, and Westbrook in Joe Kelly, Lance Lynn, Trevor Rosenthal and Shelby Miller.

Keep in mind they won't be picking first in the draft for a long time soon. Guys like SS, GG, and JZ, DS ARE the Carpenters, Garcias and Wainrights of their team.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
It appears they might have done this last year with Jordan Zimmerman without such second guessing.
Zimmerman can back from TJ late in 2010.
In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

Interesting in contrast Jaime Garcia was also kept at the 160 mark last year after TJS in 2010. I can't remember how that was handled, whether he began later or they limited his innings.
He will be having his third opinion with Andrews on his shoulder. It may have been more of a risk to put him out there because of their many future pitching farmhands, though they just signed him to lots of money.
Wainwright close to 200, that should be interesting to see how he does.
Wainwright it close to 200? Will be interesting to see how he

Strasbourg will never be in the same league as Carpenter and Wainwright he obviously by his own free will just does not have the competitiveness of those two...and many more great pitchers...and role model for a team he is not.

I just don't comprehend the love for Strasburg...

cause when the going got tough, and it mattered, his only contribution was making sure his skirt wasn't too high while sitting on the bench watching the men play. :]

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Strasbourg will never be in the same league as Carpenter and Wainwright he obviously by his own free will just does not have the competitiveness of those two...and many more great pitchers...and role model for a team he is not.

I just don't comprehend the love for Strasburg...

cause when the going got tough, and it mattered, his only contribution was making sure his skirt wasn't too high while sitting on the bench watching the men play. :]

showme,
Your team won. I would bet not one Cardinal player and especially Mike Matheny would support the comments you are making here about Strasburg and the Nats.

That sounds a little harsh. But, since I haven't read this entire thread, tell me, was SS's opinion asked about this or was it a club decision only?

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Strasbourg will never be in the same league as Carpenter and Wainwright he obviously by his own free will just does not have the competitiveness of those two...and many more great pitchers...and role model for a team he is not.

I just don't comprehend the love for Strasburg...

cause when the going got tough, and it mattered, his only contribution was making sure his skirt wasn't too high while sitting on the bench watching the men play. :]

showme,
Your team won. I would bet not one Cardinal player and especially Mike Matheny would support the comments you are making here about Strasburg and the Nats.

I agree with infielddad. Your team won.

Why would you make such derogatory statements about a player? Understand that he has NO CONTROL or input as to what he wants, this is prime example of how a player under control has to do what others want.

How do you know what he will be like at the age or experience level as the other two?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Strasbourg will never be in the same league as Carpenter and Wainwright he obviously by his own free will just does not have the competitiveness of those two...and many more great pitchers...and role model for a team he is not.

I just don't comprehend the love for Strasburg...

cause when the going got tough, and it mattered, his only contribution was making sure his skirt wasn't too high while sitting on the bench watching the men play. :]

showme,
Your team won. I would bet not one Cardinal player and especially Mike Matheny would support the comments you are making here about Strasburg and the Nats.

I agree with infielddad. Your team won.

Why would you make such derogatory statements about a player? Understand that he has NO CONTROL or input as to what he wants, this is prime example of how a player under control has to do what others want.

How do you know what he will be like at the age or experience level as the other two?

Sorry It is cold, yes we won, the battle scars are all over the pitching staff.

Free will put the scars and the titles on, not an agent negotiations, gm risk management abilities or future earnings potential, come to play or go home.

Baseball, the game it is.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Seems so interesting that the Exec. Vice President and GM of the Nats who put this team together over the past 4-5 years all of a sudden doesn't know what he is doing.
It appears they might have done this last year with Jordan Zimmerman without such second guessing.
Zimmerman can back from TJ late in 2010.
In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

The Nats were not in the playoffs last year. I've said from the beginning that if they weren't a contender this year, then sit SS. When you have a chance to win it all (and they did this year with the best record in baseball), you don't sit your horse. That's why you play the game. That's why they pay SS a fortune - to win it all. Bad decision in my opinion. This year, under these circumstances, a bad decision.

showme,
Your posts come across like YOU played the game. After all, it is just a game. Those who played in it are far more respectful of the game and the team and players who competed.
In the Thursday Giant's-Reds game, Sergio Romo had the thrill of closing it. All he could talk about was his teammates...and the AB of Jay Bruce with 2 on and 2 out in the 8th and Bruce battling him in an amazing 12 pitch AB before flying out. Afterward, Joey Votto told the reporters all about what a powerful presence Buster Posey is on a baseball field.
I just don't get the "showme" stuff, especially when you weren't posting on Thursday after the Jason Werth walk-off.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Seems so interesting that the Exec. Vice President and GM of the Nats who put this team together over the past 4-5 years all of a sudden doesn't know what he is doing.
It appears they might have done this last year with Jordan Zimmerman without such second guessing.
Zimmerman can back from TJ late in 2010.
In 2011, his innings total: 161. Coincidence or a very similar situation handled the exact same way but no one cared about Zimmerman and no one cared about the Nats in 2011?

The Nats were not in the playoffs last year. I've said from the beginning that if they weren't a contender this year, then sit SS. When you have a chance to win it all (and they did this year with the best record in baseball), you don't sit your horse. That's why you play the game. That's why they pay SS a fortune - to win it all. Bad decision in my opinion. This year, under these circumstances, a bad decision.

All very good points and certainly there is plenty to debate on each side. But, the game is played by 25 and when one isn't there, others need to step up. The Giants lost Brian Wilson in the 1st month of the season and Melky with 45 games to go. Many stepped up and they played far better after the All Star game and Buster Posey stepped up like few ever have. Why isn't the discussion about Gio Gonzalez who is one of the best in baseball, was acquired by trade in January, was provided a 6 run cushion,and couldn't get the job done? In my view, this isn't about who didn't play, it is about who did and the Nats were in position to win with those who did play..and it didn't happen.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Strasbourg will never be in the same league as Carpenter and Wainwright he obviously by his own free will just does not have the competitiveness of those two...and many more great pitchers...and role model for a team he is not.

I just don't comprehend the love for Strasburg...

cause when the going got tough, and it mattered, his only contribution was making sure his skirt wasn't too high while sitting on the bench watching the men play. :]

showme,
Your team won. I would bet not one Cardinal player and especially Mike Matheny would support the comments you are making here about Strasburg and the Nats.

I agree with infielddad. Your team won.

Why would you make such derogatory statements about a player? Understand that he has NO CONTROL or input as to what he wants, this is prime example of how a player under control has to do what others want.

How do you know what he will be like at the age or experience level as the other two?

Sorry It is cold, yes we won, the battle scars are all over the pitching staff.

Free will put the scars and the titles on, not an agent negotiations, gm risk management abilities or future earnings potential, come to play or go home.

Baseball, the game it is.

You certainly are not the typical gracious Card fan!
I am gonna kind of repeat, Carpenter and Wainwright are not the future of the STL Cardinals. Neither is Kyle Lohse, Jake Westbrook or injured Garcia.

Strasburg, Zimmerman and Gonzales are, so therefore I would suspect they would be handled differently.

So many of you are comparing losing a key player for a stretch of a marathon season to losing him for a short five game high pressure series. That's apples to oranges. Just go ahead making all the excuses you want but Strasburg not starting two games in the heat of the playoffs while healthy is what cost Washington the playoff victory.

I wouldn't blame this on Strasburg opting to not pitch as it was obvious, he didn't agree with the decision. I don't know how someone can say it was explained from the start though when all summer it was argued how many innings he would be allowed and he seemed to have no idea as Rizzo was keeping that to himself.

This is the first time in the history of professional sports--at least since the World Series of 1919 where a team did not go all out to win a playoff series. This time it wasn't the players--just the team management.

Don't think that professional athletes don't have their psyches affected by what happens on the field--Donnie Moore killed himself over it as did the catcher Hershberger of the NL champion Reds in 1939.

Dial ahead to the year 2030 where the 38 year old Bryce Harper finally gets into a World Series. He had a chance years ago before the end of his prime but his team gambled on a future that never came to pass. Strasburg had a good career--most of it spent with NY Yankees, once Washington decided he was too expensive of an "investment" to keep.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Strasbourg will never be in the same league as Carpenter and Wainwright he obviously by his own free will just does not have the competitiveness of those two...and many more great pitchers...and role model for a team he is not.

I just don't comprehend the love for Strasburg...

cause when the going got tough, and it mattered, his only contribution was making sure his skirt wasn't too high while sitting on the bench watching the men play. :]

showme,
Your team won. I would bet not one Cardinal player and especially Mike Matheny would support the comments you are making here about Strasburg and the Nats.

I agree with infielddad. Your team won.

Why would you make such derogatory statements about a player? Understand that he has NO CONTROL or input as to what he wants, this is prime example of how a player under control has to do what others want.

How do you know what he will be like at the age or experience level as the other two?

Sorry It is cold, yes we won, the battle scars are all over the pitching staff.

Free will put the scars and the titles on, not an agent negotiations, gm risk management abilities or future earnings potential, come to play or go home.

Baseball, the game it is.

You certainly are not the typical gracious Card fan!
I am gonna kind of repeat, Carpenter and Wainwright are not the future of the STL Cardinals. Neither is Kyle Lohse, Jake Westbrook or injured Garcia.

Strasburg, Zimmerman and Gonzales are, so therefore I would suspect they would be handled differently.

disagree they

*Carpenter and Wainwright are not the future of the STL Cardinals. Neither is Kyle Lohse, Jake Westbrook or injured Garcia*

are the future and it is now. History is made daily, science fiction happens in the future.

Its all about philosophy some believe all in at play off time, there is no tomorrow... some don't.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Its all about philosophy some believe all in at play off time, there is no tomorrow... some don't.

Cardinals do not sacrifice their young pitcher's arms for playoffs. And that is throughout their system.

That is NOT their philosophy.

bottom line for nats fans----nats management blew it

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
bottom line for nats fans----nats management blew it

They did.

Speaking of nicety's this future thing needs a little work.



Cardinal beat writer Joe Strauss tweets:

"For those wondering if Cards caught Harper's "gesture" in 9th inning, the answer is that some did."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUzK8tu_D68