HBP - ball bounced first

Blue was dead wrong. Bouncing doesn't matter.

Jon,

Many (not all) rules are based on common sense. Sounds like you have good common sense!

How do you pitch to Pujols, well if this guy was umpiring, I'd just bounce fastballs at his ankles. Actually, that might not be such a bad idea no matter who is umpiring. But he'd probably figure out how to hit that pitch, sore ankles and all.

absolute blown call....this is a HBP.

award first base......


Not sure what the umpire was thinking......This is umpiring 101....dont know this rule, turn in the blue shirt..

I got tossed many years ago over this call. The worst part was we had a runner on 2nd and he advanced to 3B when he saw the ball going to the ground.

When the ball hit the batter he started to first and the runner started back to second. The ump said the batter had to stay and the runner on second luckily stayed at 3B.

After the inning was over I asked the ump what was going on and he said the ball was dead when it hit the ground. I was like how is that possible - it doesn't matter if the ball hits the ground or not if it hits the batter then it's dead and he gets first. He kept saying it was a dead ball and he does not get first. I came back with well if that's the case then how did our runner get to keep third if it's a dead ball and if the ball hitting the ground makes it dead then how coule you ever have a wild pitch and advance on it. He looked at me and I said he was clueless and started to walk off - he tossed me.

The worst part was the head coach of our team didn't know the rule either. He said the ump was right.

There is a belief among many Umpire trainers that many coach ejections are the direct result of an umpiring mistake. Such as the one your relate above.

The umpire did not know the rule. When faced with your logic and rules knowledge he compounded his error by ejecting you. This is probably one of the worst things an umpire can do....and that is replace rules knowledge with the game controlling power that the rules give us....

quote:

This is probably one of the worst things an umpire can do....and that is replace rules knowledge with the game controlling power that the rules give us....

I've gotten into it with an ump before over a very similar ruling, pitcher bounced a ball up to the plate which our batter hit for a double - umpire called him back and ruled it a foul ball.

Thankfully most all the umps we've had lately have done a good job, but the few we come across like this sure stand out like a sore thumb and give umpiring a bad reputation.

Using common sense, if the ball that hit the batter was dead "when it hit the ground", then EVERY BALL that hits the ground is immediately dead...no passed balls or wild pitches EVER...and no runner advancements.

That ump needs to drop the sandlot rules and learn the real rules.

Could it have been a local league rule? I have seen that before especially in younger baseball leagues. Just a guess...

I would pretty much rule out a local rule because this ruling is one that goes against the basic rules of baseball and as such is not allowed.

The rules of baseball allow for ground rules and most youth leagues alter the OBR rules with some modifications, (pitching, minimum play, force slide etc.) none of those violate a basic tenet of baseball like altering the live status of a pitched ball....

I lean towards blaming of course the umpire, but also the association that puts this level of umpire out in the game. I know based on my experience that it is very difficult to keep up with the demand for umpires. We have a hard time covering the games as is and every year more and more leagues and tournaments place an increased demand on associations to supply umpires...

Some take the easy approach and assign "warm Bodies" to lower level games and I have to think that was the case here. In my association, if a league or coach brought up this issue with us, this umpire would not be allowed to work another game without remedial training and a more qualified partner to help him along.

It is the associations responsiblity to train them right or weed them out.....

Thanks piaa_ump for the back up. To make matters worse I wasn't yelling or screaming. Nobody had a clue we were arguing until he gave me the thumb - THHHEEEEENNNNNN I got my money's worth but until then it was just me and him talking and the fans, players and other coaches had no idea what we were talking about.

Oh well - live and learn.

"I lean towards blaming of course the umpire, but also the association that puts this level of umpire out in the game. I know based on my experience that it is very difficult to keep up with the demand for umpires."

Well put PIAA, no question, this is a wide spread problem. When it comes right down to it there are lots of folks that think; "I'ts baseball, I can umpire baseball, I've played it all my life, I've watched and loved it all my life". So they contact their local association or league, and those entities, that are so starving for bodies, send em out there. This hurts everybody, the players, fans, coaches and umpires.

Coach 2709,
"Nobody had a clue we were arguing until he gave me the thumb - THHHEEEEENNNNNN"

I feel your frustration but; this certainly doesn't help. Would you make faces at a blind person or curse a deaf one? No, because you know it wouldn't work. Same here, the umpire flat didn't know the game, your not going to teach him on the field.

The best thing you could do is; 1. file a protest, though a pain and time consuming (if it's upheld) this is the best way to handle a rules mis-application.

Second contact this umpires association, either yourself, or through your league. Any association or league UIC "needs and wants" this input.

What age group? Was this umpire alone? Hired hand or volunteer? Who assigns these umpires? That's where you need to vent, not on the field in front of your players and fans.

I began umpiring while still a player and was an active volunteer umpire for about 4 years and was "very lucky" because, I never picked up a rule book until "I became a coach". The Rule Book soon became my best friend, you can't teach if you don't know the subject. Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not indicating your not a quality coach. Just expressing my concern over your actions on the Great Field of Baseball.

Thanks for your answers everyone. It's fall ball and it wasn't a particularly important call in deciding the game, so I didn't really protest the call...kinda just chuckled a little to myself. Our best hitter was up and didn't really want the BB anyway.

The ump in question is a good guy, he always hustles to get in position (one-man crew as usual) and keeps a good attitude with the coaches and kids, so no point in putting up a fuss.

Thanks again.
Jon

jjk - I'm not going to argue with you one bit. When that happend I was like 20 / 21 and had one or two years under my belt. I thought I was going to change the world and knew how to do it.

There was no way I would let something like this go because BY GOLLY I WAS RIGHT!!!!

Amazing how a few years changes your outlook and how you handle things. I'm 32 now and been a head coach for the past 7 years. I would not address this situation in a similar manner now.

One bad thing in KY is there is no type of appeal or protest process about umps. The head coach can scratch 3 umps at the start of the season but that is all the relief we have. In fact in my 7 years I have never scratched an ump. Everyone in our region tries their best and do a fine job. I don't see a point in scratching someone - UNTIL this coming season.

I have had this one guy before about 2 years ago and he was new. He blew some calls because he did not do things right (wrong position, watching the ball instead of the runner etc..). After the game I mentioned to him the things he did wrong and I expected him to improve because that was his job.

Didn't see him again until this past season. I figured he got better and he did. BUT he did something I believe is the worst thing in the world to do - be unprofessional.

He was at the field 45 minutes before the start of the game. Came to the fence and talked to me and asked if we were going to start on time. I said yeah. He goes back to his car and changes. His partner shows up a few minutes later.

Five minutes after the game was supposed to start here come the umps. The partner I knew pretty well and I asked him where they been and he said the other guy ("dave" - just to give him a name) just kept talking. When "dave" came up to me he asked for his check and I was about 10 feet from homeplate with the other head coach. I told him to wait until after the game. We start the game.

About the 3rd / 4th inning I'm going back to my dugout and I pass "dave". He askes about the check again. I tell him after the game. "dave" follows me to the dugout and says he wants his check. I tell him he should have got out early enough and asked for it then instead of talking - even mentioned he held the game up with his talking (never mentioned his partner told on him).

"dave" came back with he likes to take care of this so confrontations won't happen if there is a disagreement with a coach happens. Once again I tell him get out here early enough to get the check and don't wait until the game has started.

I then asked if he thought I wasn't going to pay him and that no matter what calls he made I was going to pay him and never say a word about calls while he signs the invoice. "dave" then says I want my check now. I said he was bushleague and sends the wrong impression that he would rather get paid than do a good job.

He finally got tired of talking and left the dugout but that might have been because our pitcher was ready and standing on the mound waiting on him.

After the game I paid him and emailed our assigning secretary for umps and told him he better not show up at any of our games ever again.

To me what he did was wrong and unprofessional.

Agreed that the umpire was unprofessional, but getting the check before the game is a time-honored way for us to do business.

If there are controversial calls and a sh@$#$@#storm during the game, we don't want to have to wade through a fired-up crowd to track down a fired-up coach and ask for money. Not smart.

I agree it's best to get it out of the way before the game but I rarely have umps come to me before the game and ask for the check in a timely manner. If you do we will take care of it. This guy had an opportunity and did not take it.

An interesting story about Ball Bounceing therefore dead discusion.
A friend of mine described a situation where a kid hit a double on a bounced pitch. My friend argued forcfully that the ball was dead and that the batter must return to complete his at bat with the added insult of an additional strike. The umpire ruled in favor of the dead ball!
A coulple of years latter, same umpire, one of the kids on my team hits a clean single off a bounced ball.... same ruling.. dead ball with an additional strike...talk about double jeopordy!!!
I offered the rule book definition of a "ball in flight" which addresses the status of a bounced ball and if it is hit or hits a batter or bounces into the strike zone.
I was told not to discus rule interpretation on the field.
I had to live with the call.
I think though that the umpire got the message.
Rollerman

years later and he still hadnt advanced...this is why some umpires have 10 years of experience and some have 10 "first years" experience...

lets hope he got the message

I've had an umpire call that a dead ball before. He didn't know what to say when I also argued that all wild pitches must be dead too.

This just happened in the last game of the NLCS, Jose Valentin was hit in the chin by a pitch that bounced about 8' in front of home plate.

He got to go to first.