Out of the hand is mostly under their control and intentional in the scenario we're talking about...off the bat much less so and not intentional.
quote:Originally posted by Prime9:quote:I don't see it as being wossified, with pitchers throwing 90+ someone can really get hurt.
And with hitters launching them off of the bat of exit speeds well over 100+, they can't get hurt?
Ones not acceptable, the other is?
Aren't you talking about 2 different things?
I'm not sure this is same thing. A couple weeks ago our JV team was playing a team that attempted to bunt a lot and my son was pitching. After the game my son said that he started throwing at batter if they squared around to bunt and if he was throwing a fastball. He didn't hit anyone but there were a lot of funny looking balls coming off the bat at the hands. Seemed like a good strategy. BTW I don’t think that he throws hard enough to cause serious injury and the batter should have plenty of time to get out of the way if they wanted to.
quote:Originally posted by NT:
I'm not sure this is same thing. A couple weeks ago our JV team was playing a team that attempted to bunt a lot and my son was pitching. After the game my son said that he started throwing at batter if they squared around to bunt and if he was throwing a fastball. He didn't hit anyone but there were a lot of funny looking balls coming off the bat at the hands. Seemed like a good strategy. BTW I don’t think that he throws hard enough to cause serious injury and the batter should have plenty of time to get out of the way if they wanted to.
NT,
Both of the traditionally taught bunting stances leave the upper body open toward the pitcher and the hitter is holding the bat out over the plate but sort of between he and the pitcher. So, unlike normal hitting, when a pitch comes at a bunter, the instinctive reaction is to use the bat to protect himself.
So, yes, the result is often a very poorly bunted ball. Unfortunately, it is also more likely that this hitter/bunter takes a tipped ball to the face (as compared to if he were swinging away and had a pitch thrown at him).
I know that was not the intent of your son and I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out the potential harm with the strategy. It is effective in the manner you described.
Throwing at somebody's head and trying to hit them are two different things. If you are going for their head you clearly have the worst intentions, but if you are going to do something to show a pitcher or team up then you better expect a pitch in the back.
junior - You bring up a reasonable point IMO...except for the assumptions that 1) a HS pitcher has enough control to hit the spot he is aiming for and 2) that a HS pitcher cannot do that much damage with a pitch to the back/ribs.
Would you really feel ok if your son intentionally hit some kid and broke his ribs causing the batter to miss the rest of the season? Would you feel ok if your son hit a kid in the neck or head but told you he was throwing at his back/ribs?
In the Pac12 (about as high-level D1 as there is), intentionally throwing at a batter whether its the head, ribs, back, legs or feet...will cost you a 3-game suspension. Thats pretty serious stuff and is a clear demonstration of the fact that its not just an accepted 'part of the game'...even at a high college level. I can also tell you that I once saw a Stanford pitcher hit a batter intentionally in the back/shoulder with a curve ball...was ejected for the 3 games causing him to miss the next road trip to his home town...but even more directly, I was told his coach (who is a legend of the game) chewed out both the catcher and pitcher telling them that there was no place for that. He was really PO'd.
Would you really feel ok if your son intentionally hit some kid and broke his ribs causing the batter to miss the rest of the season? Would you feel ok if your son hit a kid in the neck or head but told you he was throwing at his back/ribs?
In the Pac12 (about as high-level D1 as there is), intentionally throwing at a batter whether its the head, ribs, back, legs or feet...will cost you a 3-game suspension. Thats pretty serious stuff and is a clear demonstration of the fact that its not just an accepted 'part of the game'...even at a high college level. I can also tell you that I once saw a Stanford pitcher hit a batter intentionally in the back/shoulder with a curve ball...was ejected for the 3 games causing him to miss the next road trip to his home town...but even more directly, I was told his coach (who is a legend of the game) chewed out both the catcher and pitcher telling them that there was no place for that. He was really PO'd.
Good topic. I wrote a post on this which gets into a lot of what has been talked about so far.
In short, not a good idea at the amateur levels.
Post: http://www.baseballbytheyard.c...bidden-conversation/
In short, not a good idea at the amateur levels.
Post: http://www.baseballbytheyard.c...bidden-conversation/
As a player if you are going to do something to show me up I would say you better not let this pitch to your midsection break your ribs. At least they will have a season to think about showing another player up because the have a sense of entitlement and think they are so much better than another player.
quote:Originally posted by junior5:
As a player if you are going to do something to show me up I would say you better not let this pitch to your midsection break your ribs. At least they will have a season to think about showing another player up because the have a sense of entitlement and think they are so much better than another player.
Got it. Now I understand...completely.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:quote:Originally posted by NT:
I'm not sure this is same thing. A couple weeks ago our JV team was playing a team that attempted to bunt a lot and my son was pitching. After the game my son said that he started throwing at batter if they squared around to bunt and if he was throwing a fastball. He didn't hit anyone but there were a lot of funny looking balls coming off the bat at the hands. Seemed like a good strategy. BTW I don’t think that he throws hard enough to cause serious injury and the batter should have plenty of time to get out of the way if they wanted to.
NT,
Both of the traditionally taught bunting stances leave the upper body open toward the pitcher and the hitter is holding the bat out over the plate but sort of between he and the pitcher. So, unlike normal hitting, when a pitch comes at a bunter, the instinctive reaction is to use the bat to protect himself.
So, yes, the result is often a very poorly bunted ball. Unfortunately, it is also more likely that this hitter/bunter takes a tipped ball to the face (as compared to if he were swinging away and had a pitch thrown at him).
I know that was not the intent of your son and I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out the potential harm with the strategy. It is effective in the manner you described.
My son has been taught that if the batter squares around to bunt, then you throw the pitch up in the zone because it is more difficult to get the bunt down. Usually, it will force a pop up. He's been pretty effective doing this (and no one gets hit).
quote:Originally posted by VaRHPmom:
My son has been taught that if the batter squares around to bunt, then you throw the pitch up in the zone because it is more difficult to get the bunt down. Usually, it will force a pop up. He's been pretty effective doing this (and no one gets hit).
That's right and that's why we teach our guys to start squared with the hands at the top of the zone and pull back off of anything above the hands...
sorry, getting away from the OP topic a bit and I know that wasn't your point - I agree it is a more effective pitching approach that is a lot less likely to result in injury. Up and in but not at the guy is good too.
quote:Originally posted by junior5:
As a player if you are going to do something to show me up I would say you better not let this pitch to your midsection break your ribs. At least they will have a season to think about showing another player up because the have a sense of entitlement and think they are so much better than another player.
YIKES
I'm confused on what makes it okay for an adult to do something but a high school student can't. It is sad to see the hypocritical statements on here. If you are throwing inside with the purpose of backing the batter off the plate you are INTENTIONALLY doing so, and more than likely you are going to hit them because control is the biggest question apparently! If you are afraid of a player throwing at a kid because he doesn't have enough control to stay away from his head, then why even put him on the mound if he can't hit a person who is at least 5 feet of body, let alone what there height is without his head, how is he going to hit the strike zone!! What is the difference?! That batter has the choice to stand on the plate and that player has the choice to make a less than intelligent gesture. And guess what, both are going to result in a fastball inside. I don't care if you are 17, 27, or, 37 it isn't okay at one age and not another.
You can YIKES me or say you understand now because I'm a player, but you aren't going to be thrown at if you are a stand up guy.
You can YIKES me or say you understand now because I'm a player, but you aren't going to be thrown at if you are a stand up guy.
jr5, just to be clear...my previous comment (YIKES!)had nothing to do with your most recent post expressing your belief there is no difference between a high school and professional pitcher intentionally hitting a batter...
However, when you say "As a player if you are going to do something to show me up I would say you better not let this pitch to your midsection break your ribs. At least they will have a season to think about showing another player up because the have a sense of entitlement and think they are so much better than another player".
I'm sorry but your feeling that it's fair pay back to put someone out of commission just because you felt they "showed you up" isn't acceptable IMO. I hope you don't learn the hard way that your theory is flawed.
However, when you say "As a player if you are going to do something to show me up I would say you better not let this pitch to your midsection break your ribs. At least they will have a season to think about showing another player up because the have a sense of entitlement and think they are so much better than another player".
I'm sorry but your feeling that it's fair pay back to put someone out of commission just because you felt they "showed you up" isn't acceptable IMO. I hope you don't learn the hard way that your theory is flawed.
I was taught to come up and in on bunters, especially on the squeeze.quote:Originally posted by NT:
I'm not sure this is same thing. A couple weeks ago our JV team was playing a team that attempted to bunt a lot and my son was pitching. After the game my son said that he started throwing at batter if they squared around to bunt and if he was throwing a fastball. He didn't hit anyone but there were a lot of funny looking balls coming off the bat at the hands. Seemed like a good strategy. BTW I don’t think that he throws hard enough to cause serious injury and the batter should have plenty of time to get out of the way if they wanted to.
quote:Originally posted by junior5:
what makes it okay for an adult to do something but a high school student can't.
"Because I said so."
The answer is no. No justification for throwing at a kid. The possiblity ofserious injury is too great.
Having said that I have observed umpires not acting in the players and games best interest regarding this issue. They will warn and eject if they think a kid has thrown at someone. Sometimes they will do this even when they know the pitcher has yet to hit a target his catcher has put down. At the same time they won't force hitters to stand within the batters box and let them hang all over the plate. Then when a kid gets hit after little or no effort to get out of the way he's awarded first.
I observed a D3 game two weeks ago where a hitter stood with his back foot behind home plate. He wore a bulky pad on his front arm much like Bonds used to wear. Two straight at bats leading off innings he turned back towards the catcher, (this had the effect of moving his padded arm further out towards the plate), on pitches inside and reached base on HBPs. Late in the game he had an at bat with the bases loaded and down 3 runs, he left the pad in the on deck circle.
Having said that I have observed umpires not acting in the players and games best interest regarding this issue. They will warn and eject if they think a kid has thrown at someone. Sometimes they will do this even when they know the pitcher has yet to hit a target his catcher has put down. At the same time they won't force hitters to stand within the batters box and let them hang all over the plate. Then when a kid gets hit after little or no effort to get out of the way he's awarded first.
I observed a D3 game two weeks ago where a hitter stood with his back foot behind home plate. He wore a bulky pad on his front arm much like Bonds used to wear. Two straight at bats leading off innings he turned back towards the catcher, (this had the effect of moving his padded arm further out towards the plate), on pitches inside and reached base on HBPs. Late in the game he had an at bat with the bases loaded and down 3 runs, he left the pad in the on deck circle.
more goody goody two shoes thinking here
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
more goody goody two shoes thinking here
So are you saying you are an advocate of the intentional HBP in the amateur levels?
a intrinsic part of pitching is "wning the plate" which means pitching inside---if you hit the batter so be it
There is a difference between throwing inside to win the plate and throwing inside to intentionally harm the batter.
I was taught that if a batter is crowding the plate then you throw it inside.If it hits him,it hits him,that's part of the game.Once the hitter steps into the box they know there is a chance that they might get hit.If they want to decrease their chances of wearing one then don't crowd the plate.Or don't hit.
Now if an opposing player shows up you or a teammate,hits one of your teammates intentionally,or slides with his spikes high etc.Then yes someone will be getting a pitch to the ribs.They deserve it.
And people who say that hitting them might end that players season.The same goes for sliding with your spikes high.Both could hurt someone.But you have to stand up for yourself and for your teammates.And if that means hitting someone then so be it.
Two seasons ago we had a younger player on my team.One game he was catching and someone ran him over on a play at the plate.Then stood over him.I was on the hill that day and there was no way that player was not going to wear one in that game.
Hitting someone and getting hit is part of the game if you don't like it then don't play.
Now if an opposing player shows up you or a teammate,hits one of your teammates intentionally,or slides with his spikes high etc.Then yes someone will be getting a pitch to the ribs.They deserve it.
And people who say that hitting them might end that players season.The same goes for sliding with your spikes high.Both could hurt someone.But you have to stand up for yourself and for your teammates.And if that means hitting someone then so be it.
Two seasons ago we had a younger player on my team.One game he was catching and someone ran him over on a play at the plate.Then stood over him.I was on the hill that day and there was no way that player was not going to wear one in that game.
Hitting someone and getting hit is part of the game if you don't like it then don't play.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
There is a difference between throwing inside to win the plate and throwing inside to intentionally harm the batter.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
a intrinsic part of pitching is "wning the plate" which means pitching inside---if you hit the batter so be it
Got it, I agree 100%...if a pitcher (at any age) can't pitch "in" to keep a batter off the plate they are at a distinct disadvantage.
The original posters question was quite different... "Are there instances in high school baseball in which it is permissible or even warranted for a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter"?
There is a big difference between pitching inside and hitting someone with intent...one is just good baseball...the other is not (especially at the HS level).
quote:Hitting someone and getting hit is part of the game if you don't like it then don't play.
Wow. So getting run over at the plate is "part of the game too" right? And if you "don't like it, don't play" is the way it goes, right?
The kid trucking a catcher is or should be ejected. What are you going to do then, throw at another kid on the team to prove a point? Intentionally hitting a batter at the HS level is bush league. If a coach allows or condones it then he is a bush league manager/coach and it will reflect in his team.
High school pitchers are typically not as good as professional pitchers or even college pitchers. A small baseball going low 80's to however fast they can throw has the potential to do some damage.
Ultimately you have to ask yourself these questions
If I, as a coach, tell my high school pitcher who is still a kid to throw at a high school batter who is also a kid - can I live with myself if that batter ultimately gets hurt where he can no longer play the game? Can I take on the responsibility for ending a kid's opportunity to play a game because I wanted to be a tough guy and get them back for something?
If you can answer yes to these questions then you may need to rethink your character. If you can answer no then you should be fine.
Ultimately you have to ask yourself these questions
If I, as a coach, tell my high school pitcher who is still a kid to throw at a high school batter who is also a kid - can I live with myself if that batter ultimately gets hurt where he can no longer play the game? Can I take on the responsibility for ending a kid's opportunity to play a game because I wanted to be a tough guy and get them back for something?
If you can answer yes to these questions then you may need to rethink your character. If you can answer no then you should be fine.
Seen games get chippy. Game is two neighborhood rivals and one jumps to an early lead. There are spiked 1st baseman and take out slides and finally the talking starts. Catcher from Team A starts talking to batters asbout checking the scoreboard. F bombs dropping all over the place between players. Team B rallies in the home 6th and the kid that spiked the 1st baseman hits a 2 out 3 run bomb to put the team in the lead by one. Top of the 7th leadoff single and up comes the catcher. A D1 pitcher brought in for relief and buries the 1st pitch in the catchers number. He then works out of the inning for the save with he help of two on the corner at the knees fastablls for strike 3.
Becasue of the game situation noone suspected the pitcher smoked the hitter. When I raised it to other parents (my kid told me what happened) they didn't buy it. When I asked how do you explain the K's following hitting the batter in the number on his back it was suddenly like a light went on. I said he missed any spot over the plate by 2-3 feet yet came back moments latter and hit a tea cup multiple times. A lot of stuff goes on out there. Those kids aren't all angels. Plenty of them are salty dogs that have the old style in them from Dad's or Grandfathers that played.
Becasue of the game situation noone suspected the pitcher smoked the hitter. When I raised it to other parents (my kid told me what happened) they didn't buy it. When I asked how do you explain the K's following hitting the batter in the number on his back it was suddenly like a light went on. I said he missed any spot over the plate by 2-3 feet yet came back moments latter and hit a tea cup multiple times. A lot of stuff goes on out there. Those kids aren't all angels. Plenty of them are salty dogs that have the old style in them from Dad's or Grandfathers that played.
Seems to me that kid was pretty selfish. Plunking a kid and putting the potential tieing run on 2nd is not being much of a team player....but hey, it worked out for him. Wonder if the coach gave him an ear-full afterwards
I don't think He didn't pick up on it. The coach is all about "toughness" but I suspect he might have been unhappy about it becasue of the game situation.
Interesting point on the selfishness. This young man will be leading men in the next few years since he is in the service acadamies. Watched him for three years and I'm not sure I ever heard him speak more than twice. This particular game was the most animated I ever saw him.
Interesting point on the selfishness. This young man will be leading men in the next few years since he is in the service acadamies. Watched him for three years and I'm not sure I ever heard him speak more than twice. This particular game was the most animated I ever saw him.
I doubt many hs coaches will call for a hbp during a game, but I bet the whole team already knows how he feels about certain things- whether he'd be mad, look the other way or chuckle inside.
Other than one insane coach I had issues with about hitting batters, I've never seen a coach order a batter hit. There's a liability issue. I have heard it implied something needs to be taken care of at the college level.
I just remembered. When my son played 9U and 10U travel our rival decided the way to beat us was intimidate us. At 9U and 10U the coach had pitchers throwing at us. There would be several HBP's per game. Power hittes were hit in the chgest. Fast runners were hit in the legs. At least that was what the pitchers were trying to do. I've never seen little kids who could dot the I like this team. Our clean up hitter got beaned, got a concussion and never got over get hit in the head. He quit baseball at twelve.
One of their parents came to me and asked if I could tell what was going on when my son was hit for the third time in a game. The strategy was if they couldn't keep him off the bases they were going to bang him up with HBP's to keep him from running the bases well.
One of their parents came to me and asked if I could tell what was going on when my son was hit for the third time in a game. The strategy was if they couldn't keep him off the bases they were going to bang him up with HBP's to keep him from running the bases well.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Other than one insane coach I had issues with about hitting batters, I've never seen a coach order a batter hit. There's a liability issue. I have heard it implied soemthing needs to be taken care of at the college level.
As a freshman pitching in the second game of a double header (D1) I was told to hit the lead off hitter. He had gone 4 for 4 in the first game and let our team know it on his last hit. If I did not comply I had to deal with the coaches as well as the Kangaroo court.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Other than one insane coach I had issues with about hitting batters, I've never seen a coach order a batter hit. There's a liability issue. I have heard it implied soemthing needs to be taken care of at the college level.
Saw and heard it over the weekend. D1 game, offensive (visiting) team leading by 6, top 8. With one out, batter reaches on an error, steals second, and subsequently attempted to steal 3rd. The umpire at 3rd didn't bother to get into position to make a call, but just rang up the runner. His explanation to the offensive coach: "I'm just trying to keep your batters from getting hit."
Defensive head coach called out (loud enough to be picked up by the streaming audio, according to my wife): "It has to be here (pointing to his hip), not here" (pointing to his head). At this point the HP umpire issued a warning to both teams.
The defensive team pitched to the next batter, who hit a triple. The first pitch to the next batter was behind his head. The umpire called it a ball, the offensive coach wanted to know why no ejection, and was eventually ejected himself.
And the game went on.
The defensive head coach is an ex-MLB player who is very traditional in his views. I don't think being held liable was a consideration. Obviously he meant to be heard by everybody when telling the pitcher where to hit the batter. And I think the whole thing went down pretty much as he expected and wanted, other than the exact location of the pitch.
I don't advocate throwing at a batter on purpose, but just about everyone expected it to happen in our game last night.
A kid on the other team hit a shot way over the right field fence (which has a high net). He proceeded to very slowly trot around the bases and then let out a huge yell as he crossed home plate and was swarmed by his teammates. (By the way, this was only the first inning, so we're not even talking "walk-off").
I think our pitcher showed great restraint in not pitching a bit inside to him when he came to the plate the next time up.
Total class on our pitcher's side. Totally classless in the other dugout.
As one of my son's former coaches used to say, "Act like you've been there before."
A kid on the other team hit a shot way over the right field fence (which has a high net). He proceeded to very slowly trot around the bases and then let out a huge yell as he crossed home plate and was swarmed by his teammates. (By the way, this was only the first inning, so we're not even talking "walk-off").
I think our pitcher showed great restraint in not pitching a bit inside to him when he came to the plate the next time up.
Total class on our pitcher's side. Totally classless in the other dugout.
As one of my son's former coaches used to say, "Act like you've been there before."
When I played in HS it happened all the time and it never came from the coaches. It was just the way the game was played. Of course back then guys chewed during games. Guys went in high and hard at 2nd base. Catchers got trucked. If one of our guys got hit intentional or not one of your guys was getting hit. If you pimped a HR your next guy was going to get drilled. If you stole a base up big you were going to get hit. If you tried to lay down a bunt up big you were def going to get drilled. It was just the way we played the game.
As time has gone by I would like to think we have become a little more aware of the dangers of doing these things. I would like to think we have basically grown out of that type of stuff. As a coach I have to ask myself some serious questions. "If I tell a kid to hit a kid and that kid gets hurt do I want to live with that? Can I live with that? Do I want to put that on one of my kids? Is that the right thing to do? Is it worth it the potential risk?"
The answer to everyone of those questions is NO. Have I wanted to have one of our guys Drill a kid? Yes. Without question many times. But there are many things I have wanted to do but knew it was the wrong thing to do. I have had pitchers that wanted so badly to drill a kid that I literally had to tell them if they did they were not going to see the field again. And there have been times I went and got them because I was not sure they could stop themselves from doing it. Remember these are young kids who are tremendous competitors and tempers can run hot at times. Its no different than a kid who has thrown 110 pitches and wants to finish what he starts. Do you let them talk you into doing something you know is wrong? No.
Your the coach and you have to explain to them the consequences of their actions. You have to give them the "what if" scenarios so it hits home with them. What if you kill this kid? What if you hit him in the face? What if he gets seriously injured do you want to live with that? How do you want to be remembered? Do you want to face his parents in the ER? Do you want to be the kid that put that kids eye out? On and on it goes.
Once you put into perspective for the players they get a better understanding of it and the potential consequences for letting your temper control you. Its sounds macho to say "You got to protect your team mates." Its sounds cool and manly. But the fact is when it goes bad there is silence and a quick realization that it simply was the wrong thing to do. And quickly the attitudes change when a young man is on the ground and blood is coming from the eye socket and the 911 call is being made. The parents are running onto the field and the accusations start flying. Suddenly it doesn't seem right. Suddenly attitudes start to change about the decision that was made.
There is enough danger in the game already. There are enough situations that happen by accident to put that stuff into the equation. There are ways to deal with this type of stuff without putting anyone at risk. I can go to the opposing coach and tell him man to man to have his players cool it. I can go to the umpire and tell him he needs to get control of the game. I can beat the living dog ***X out of that team and not call off the dogs. I can do a lot of things that do not include me putting that on a kid to have to live with.
I love to work inside. With the sole purpose of getting hitters to understand they can not just dive in and they are not going to be comfortable at the plate on the plate. And the whole time have zero intention of hitting anyone. And if it happens I know and more importantly the pitcher knows we were just playing the game and stuff can happen in this game. Splitting the difference inside is pitching. Throwing intentionally at a hitter is dangerous and has no place in the game. And I am one of those that believes it has no place in the game at any level. And especially at the HS level and below. I am not going to put fear in my pitchers of potentially hitting a batter because we work both sides of the plate. We are going to compete and we are going to work inside, up, down and away. And they understand that the potential to hit a batter is there. But they also understand that if its not intentional and we are just playing the game then its just part of the game and we can all live with it. There is the difference really. When you do it intentionally you have to wear it and all that comes with it. When you hit someone just playing the game then its just part of the game and part of the risk of playing the game. I can live with that and so can any baseball player.
As time has gone by I would like to think we have become a little more aware of the dangers of doing these things. I would like to think we have basically grown out of that type of stuff. As a coach I have to ask myself some serious questions. "If I tell a kid to hit a kid and that kid gets hurt do I want to live with that? Can I live with that? Do I want to put that on one of my kids? Is that the right thing to do? Is it worth it the potential risk?"
The answer to everyone of those questions is NO. Have I wanted to have one of our guys Drill a kid? Yes. Without question many times. But there are many things I have wanted to do but knew it was the wrong thing to do. I have had pitchers that wanted so badly to drill a kid that I literally had to tell them if they did they were not going to see the field again. And there have been times I went and got them because I was not sure they could stop themselves from doing it. Remember these are young kids who are tremendous competitors and tempers can run hot at times. Its no different than a kid who has thrown 110 pitches and wants to finish what he starts. Do you let them talk you into doing something you know is wrong? No.
Your the coach and you have to explain to them the consequences of their actions. You have to give them the "what if" scenarios so it hits home with them. What if you kill this kid? What if you hit him in the face? What if he gets seriously injured do you want to live with that? How do you want to be remembered? Do you want to face his parents in the ER? Do you want to be the kid that put that kids eye out? On and on it goes.
Once you put into perspective for the players they get a better understanding of it and the potential consequences for letting your temper control you. Its sounds macho to say "You got to protect your team mates." Its sounds cool and manly. But the fact is when it goes bad there is silence and a quick realization that it simply was the wrong thing to do. And quickly the attitudes change when a young man is on the ground and blood is coming from the eye socket and the 911 call is being made. The parents are running onto the field and the accusations start flying. Suddenly it doesn't seem right. Suddenly attitudes start to change about the decision that was made.
There is enough danger in the game already. There are enough situations that happen by accident to put that stuff into the equation. There are ways to deal with this type of stuff without putting anyone at risk. I can go to the opposing coach and tell him man to man to have his players cool it. I can go to the umpire and tell him he needs to get control of the game. I can beat the living dog ***X out of that team and not call off the dogs. I can do a lot of things that do not include me putting that on a kid to have to live with.
I love to work inside. With the sole purpose of getting hitters to understand they can not just dive in and they are not going to be comfortable at the plate on the plate. And the whole time have zero intention of hitting anyone. And if it happens I know and more importantly the pitcher knows we were just playing the game and stuff can happen in this game. Splitting the difference inside is pitching. Throwing intentionally at a hitter is dangerous and has no place in the game. And I am one of those that believes it has no place in the game at any level. And especially at the HS level and below. I am not going to put fear in my pitchers of potentially hitting a batter because we work both sides of the plate. We are going to compete and we are going to work inside, up, down and away. And they understand that the potential to hit a batter is there. But they also understand that if its not intentional and we are just playing the game then its just part of the game and we can all live with it. There is the difference really. When you do it intentionally you have to wear it and all that comes with it. When you hit someone just playing the game then its just part of the game and part of the risk of playing the game. I can live with that and so can any baseball player.
The 18 or 19yo coach of the freshman team at my son's school ordered one of the 14yo pitchers to hit an opposing batter. The kid was conflicted to say the least. He missed.
I was a pitcher, so this is just my take. It’s part of the game. But I think many people misunderstand, again my opinion, what part it plays.
If an opposing teams’ hitters know they can crowd the plate, and get it away with it they will. It makes their job as hitters easier. It takes away certain pitches in certain situations as well.
I think the best term I’ve ever heard used is “effectively wild”. Pitchers want to pound the strike zone. They WANT to get outs efficiently. Good hitters will figure out pretty quickly that a pitcher is comfortable in the strike zone early, and will adjust their mindset at the plate and get more aggressive.
At this point is would good pitchers will adjust.
Regardless of what many people (most who’ve never pitched from 60’6”) think, it’s not easy to throw the ball exactly where you want to. I’ve seen guys get beaned because the previous batter hit a shot and the pitcher simply got pumped up and tried to throw it HARDER and it sailed. But of course to most people “He threw at him!!!” is the judgement.
Some hitters gamble with being hit. They settle in, especially crowding the plate. It’s a gamble, and most know that.
I STILL think that “effectively wild” is better. I’ll relay a quick story.
LL All Star State tournament. Kid on the team I coached threw hard. HARD as is harder than anything I saw at the LL World Series that year. (Gun verified). He was historically a catcher.
During a pool play game I used him for an inning, keeping him under his pitch count so he was still available.
The kid was always a little wild, but his mechanics had improved after much work. I told him to throw a few right down the middle in warm up’s, then sail at least one or so into the backstop. He did.
The first batter up looked like he was walking on hot coals. He didn’t want to plant his feet.
Effectively wild.
(He struck out the side BTW).
If an opposing teams’ hitters know they can crowd the plate, and get it away with it they will. It makes their job as hitters easier. It takes away certain pitches in certain situations as well.
I think the best term I’ve ever heard used is “effectively wild”. Pitchers want to pound the strike zone. They WANT to get outs efficiently. Good hitters will figure out pretty quickly that a pitcher is comfortable in the strike zone early, and will adjust their mindset at the plate and get more aggressive.
At this point is would good pitchers will adjust.
Regardless of what many people (most who’ve never pitched from 60’6”) think, it’s not easy to throw the ball exactly where you want to. I’ve seen guys get beaned because the previous batter hit a shot and the pitcher simply got pumped up and tried to throw it HARDER and it sailed. But of course to most people “He threw at him!!!” is the judgement.
Some hitters gamble with being hit. They settle in, especially crowding the plate. It’s a gamble, and most know that.
I STILL think that “effectively wild” is better. I’ll relay a quick story.
LL All Star State tournament. Kid on the team I coached threw hard. HARD as is harder than anything I saw at the LL World Series that year. (Gun verified). He was historically a catcher.
During a pool play game I used him for an inning, keeping him under his pitch count so he was still available.
The kid was always a little wild, but his mechanics had improved after much work. I told him to throw a few right down the middle in warm up’s, then sail at least one or so into the backstop. He did.
The first batter up looked like he was walking on hot coals. He didn’t want to plant his feet.
Effectively wild.
(He struck out the side BTW).
(Long time lurker here - popping my head out.)
Coach May, that's about the most spot-on post I can imagine. I appreciate you stating such a sensible opinion so well.
Coach May, that's about the most spot-on post I can imagine. I appreciate you stating such a sensible opinion so well.