he threw how many??

70 pitches in the third, IMO is way too high.

That means he is going deep into counts, afraid to give up hits because he is a afraid his defense will let him down. High pitch counts may signal he is nibbling away at the batter, not in command of his pitches. You are right, this is not LL anymore and the pitcher needs to learn how to adjust.

Not good for a young pitcher to think that way. The results of too much don't show up until later on, when it really will be important.

Right now it appears that no one is working on the same page as to what is best for the young pitcher.

TPM,
But big ben seems to believe that warmups should be included in the pitch count, and 8+5+5 warmups subtracted from 70 leaves him with 52 pitches when counted in the standard way. Given that two runs had scored, he'd probably faced 13 batters, so his approach at the mound may be just fine. I do think you are qute right that nibbling isn't a good idea.

big ben,
You ask why warm-up pitches aren't counted? One can make argments for either including them or not including them, but the fact is that pitch counts as commonly discussed only include game pitches.

So if you read that a 15-16 year old pitcher should be limited to 91 pitches per game, and you want to follow that recommendation, only game pitches should be included.

What to do about 115 game pitches? I would probably use email to strongly request that your son be limited to, say, 90 pitches per game, and that he have 4 days of rest following such an outing. I recommend email because it may be necessary to escalate this issue, and a written exchange will be much more effective than individual recollections of verbal conversations. For example, if the coach were to say in an email something along the lines of "I own your son", or "I'll throw him as much as I please", then likely he is going to get an education about appropriate treatment of players. If it isn't written, then it just becomes "he said, you said".

Secondly, I would start keeping a record of his actual pitch counts. By far the best way to do this is to keep a conventional score book, with each pitch recorded as ball, called strike, swinging strike, foul, etc. When recorded in this detail, the numbers are pretty hard to dispute.

In general, I believe that a parent should stay out of any baseball decision made at the high school level, and ordinarily I certainly wouldn't recommend written, possibly contentious, discussions. But when player safety is involved, I think one needs to take a strong approach. Do be sure to have your facts in order.

3FG,
He said pitch count, that means to me what he pitched in the game, not sure if he meant that included warm ups.
He needs to explain exactly what the count included at the end of his outing, not with warmups.
If it was 115 in 5, that is way too much also. How many batters did he face altogether? That's 23 per inning and that me means he was going deep.

Parents often come here complaining about high counts and ragging on coaches, IMO, that doesn't always tell the whole story to what is really going on. How many innings, how many batters faced, how many K's, how many walks, how many hits, what type of pitches did he throw, how many thrown for strikes, really provides more info as to how we can give advice.

Parents of pitchers, should really learn how to chart pitches (or ask for it after game if they do it) which can simply include count and balls verses strikes if you can't tell what is being thrown. That really tells the better story. If it's not being done, learn how to and do it for every pitcher, that may help some (clueless) coaches how to manage their pitchers better.

Perventing injuries is about being educated, if the coach isn't, and your son is going to be with him for 4 years, help instead of attack him.

FIRST OFF THE PITCHING COACH DID NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS FOR PITCH COUNT, BECAUSE HE ALSO CALLS THE PITCHES. I JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW APPROACH THIS WITH NOBODY GETTING MAD. MY SON IS FOURTEEN. HE IS THE YOUNGEST IN HIS CLASS. MAYBE I WASN'T CLEAR AS TO WHAT I WANTED FIND OUT HERE? BUT I THINK WRITTEN LETTER IS THE WAY TO GO NOW AND KEEPING TRACK OF ALL PITCHERS ON THE TEAM TOO. AND AS FOR TPM YOU ARE RIGHT IN HS THEY DON'T CALL THE CORNERS VERY MUCH, THE PITCHER IS TO ADJUST TO THE UMP WE UNDERSTAND THAT, I GUESS YOU JUST THROW OVER THE MIDDLE AND LET THEM HIT IT THE PARKS ARE BIG SO THEY ALL WON'T LEAVE THE YARD. AS FOR THE GAME HE HAD SIX WALKS FOUR STRIKE OUTS AND LEFT 5 ON BASE (I THINK) SORRY DIDN'T CHART THEM , BUT WILL FROM NOW ON THANKS. AND THERE WAS AN IN THE PARK HOMER GIVEN UP ON ERRORS THAT WAS HIT TO RIGHT FIELD BY RIGHT HAND BATTER

quote:

FIRST OFF THE PITCHING COACH DID NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS FOR PITCH COUNT, BECAUSE HE ALSO CALLS THE PITCHES. I JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW APPROACH THIS WITH NOBODY GETTING MAD. MY SON IS FOURTEEN. HE IS THE YOUNGEST IN HIS CLASS. MAYBE I WASN'T CLEAR AS TO WHAT I WANTED FIND OUT HERE? BUT I THINK WRITTEN LETTER IS THE WAY TO GO NOW AND KEEPING TRACK OF ALL PITCHERS ON THE TEAM TOO. AND AS FOR TPM YOU ARE RIGHT IN HS THEY DON'T CALL THE CORNERS VERY MUCH, THE PITCHER IS TO ADJUST TO THE UMP WE UNDERSTAND THAT, I GUESS YOU JUST THROW OVER THE MIDDLE AND LET THEM HIT IT THE PARKS ARE BIG SO THEY ALL WON'T LEAVE THE YARD. AS FOR THE GAME HE HAD SIX WALKS FOUR STRIKE OUTS AND LEFT 5 ON BASE (I THINK) SORRY DIDN'T CHART THEM , BUT WILL FROM NOW ON THANKS. AND THERE WAS AN IN THE PARK HOMER GIVEN UP ON ERRORS THAT WAS HIT TO RIGHT FIELD BY RIGHT HAND BATTER

No need to "scream"

BULLDOG 19 WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO NEED TO SCREAM? DID COME ACROSS UPSET? TRYING NOT TOO! JUST LOOKING FOR WAYS TO HELP MY SON MAKE IT WITHOUT HURTING HIMSELF

Turn the Caps Lock off.

OK Thanks!!

quote:

why don't you count warm ups

You don't count warm up "tosses".

I removed a kid from the game in the 7th last Friday. he was at 94 pitches and he was pouting because I took him out. he entered the 7th at 84 pitches, he went 3-2 with the lead off hitter and gave up a double, then threw a wild pitch, then ended up walking that next hitter. We were up 8 to 1 at the time. I explained him to that he was approaching 100 and I wasnt going to let him get to that. It was like he was still mad. he was being very selfish, instead of taking the compliment of me and his other coaches/teammates that he threw a great game, he pouted. Unbelievable! he could have easily threw 125 pitches before he got the three outs.
I will always err on the side of caution for a kids health.

Bvers,
Good job. I wouldn't be too worried about the kid. The fact that he wanted to finish the game is a good thing. The fact that he was pouting, etc., means you've got some work to do to turn him into a better team mate. You might explain to him that pouting, especially if it happens on the mound can turn off college coaches and be the difference between getting and not getting a scholarship.

Cadad is right about the not pouting on the mound. While it's great he wants to compete he needs to realize that it's a team game and it's time to hand it off to someone else.

One thing that might help is when you go to make a change is have the dugout come out to give him high fives and such. Might make him realize that he did do a good job and calm him down a little quicker.

I would do it on a bad performance as well.

We have an understanding with our pitchers regarding pitches etc---we have taken guys out with no hitters going---no pouting--sure the kid will give coach a look and fight him, but that is fine we like that fire, but there is no pouting--- actually looking back over the years I do not think that the no hitters in the making ever got broken---it fired up the reliever becasue he was part of "something".

It is interesting how the players know the "score" ---we took a lefty outin a tight game in the last inning with one out left---it was first and third with two out and his move to first was not the best---we couldn't take the chance of 2nd and 3rd--he was ticked off that he came out but the reliever struck out the batter for the third out---the lefty sidled up to me after the strike and whispered to me " Great move, Coach!"---I like that !!!


Fire is great but pouting is a NO NO in our dugout

I once took a kid out in a club ball game (it was 12U or 13U) who had a no hitter through 6 innings. He was somewhere in the 90-100 pitch count, had walked 4 or 5 and stuck out 12+. As a result his pitch count was up despite being dominating. We were up, don't remember if it was 5-0 or 7-0 but something like that.

He didn't like it, his parents didn't like it, the catcher didn't like it, the other coaches didn't like it, the players didn't like it. To be perfectly honest, I didn't like it.

I just saw a box score the other day where this kid, a high school freshman, won a game against one of the teams Maxpreps currently ranks as one of the top 20 teams in the nation.

I know he'll never forgive me, but I look forward to the day I see him on ESPN telling America what an idiot I was...

Just to add to what I put earlier. His teammates did come out of the dugout, and the home crowd gave him a standing O. It was just a case of selfishness and it has been a work in progress. Amazingly enough, it has gotten much better, but is still work that needs to be done.

quote:

Originally posted by BVers21:
Just to add to what I put earlier. His teammates did come out of the dugout, and the home crowd gave him a standing O. It was just a case of selfishness and it has been a work in progress. Amazingly enough, it has gotten much better, but is still work that needs to be done.

Well I hate to hear that it's a sign of selfishness but it sounds like you have done a good job of helping to fix it.