Heavy bats

I am just a mom so you will get experts on here, and probably a lot of different opinions but we have researced bats and my son has seen a hitting coach for along time. First dont know the age of your son, second I dont believe they should ever swing heavy bats. My son is in college, when he has made changes over the years to new bat weights(now pretty much likes one he has had all though highschool) ,but when he did change he would start in the fall with it and then be ready in swing, he couldnt change weights in the middle of a season. throws your timing off . Thats how he feels about it. interested to hear what others say.
many people think heavier bat , better power, I dont believe that at all. you need bat speed!!!

Fan my opinion is pretty much the same. Also for a younger player , a bat that is too heavy can force adjustments in the swing mechanics and timing.
Personally as I got older I loved a heavy bat. I liked it long and heavy at the end and I stuck with it.

I agree that you do not want to be switching bats during the season and well as swinging a bat that is too heavy. If your son has done a good conditioning program before the season, he should be in good physical condition to swing whatever bat, in fact most do not lift during the season, but as time goes on timing will become better.

It is kind of funny because we were just talking about weighted bats, when he was in high school he had gotten 1" x 36" piece of "rebar" to swing, it helped to build up strength so when he used his bat, he would have created a lot of bat speed. Well we were watching an A's game and Frank Thomas was swinging rebar before his at bat and the announcers were making a comment about it.

Doughnutman I think that's fine. I used bat weight to as a "tool". I actually had my son swing two different weight bats during the season when he was younger. He had two identical bats with the exception of the weight. He would drop down 1 oz when he faced the higher velocity pitchers. Not that I have statistical data to back it up but it worked for him ---- I guess.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
I actually had my son swing two different weight bats during the season when he was younger. He had two identical bats with the exception of the weight. He would drop down 1 oz when he faced the higher velocity pitchers. Not that I have statistical data to back it up but it worked for him ---- I guess.
Fungo

My son had tried that case on me but at $375 a pop, it was not happening, I told him to swing faster , actually he wanted the heavier bat for the slower pitchers, I told him to wait longer and let it get deeper

My son could time the fastball with the heavier bat no problem. It was the breaking stuff that he was always missing. I always thought the heavier bat made him stay back more and shorten his swing. By the time he was used to the weight, he could drive the breaking ball.

Then again, it could have just been the fact that he had seen enough breaking stuff and had grown bigger so the bat seemed lighter.

Who knows.

I go by the philosophy "swing the heaviest bat possible without loosing bat speed". All other variables being equal the heavier bat will hit farther. The physics behind that statement it is F=MA. I also agree sometimes mentally a batter needs that other bat in the bag for that little extra when they just aren't feeling it. My son carries 3 bats of different weights and lengths and will use them at different times depending how he feels. He doesn't switch bats during a game but may switch between games during a weekend tournament.

What is your definition of heavy? If you are using a bat that requires a lot of effort to swing effectively then you have too heavy of a bat. But you should swing the heaviest bat you can swing with "normal" effort. This is where conditioning comes in.

How about an eigth grader that swings a 34/31? Is that considered too heavy?

Doughnutman, I guess that depends on how big your son is but more importantly how much effort it takes. Is he "dragging" the bat? My son is also an 8th grader.He is 5"9" 130 lbs. We are moving from a -8 to a -5 this year. He swings a 32/29 woodie for the winter work. We really wont get the metal out until @ 2 weeks before the season starts( Last few workouts ). We also use a 30oz Thunderstick for hand/eye work. Eventhough it weighs 30oz,it has much less drag thus good for this type work. We have done this the last 2 years and it seems to work for him. His hands/batspeed is getting even better. We also do a drill where we do soft toss from behind and he has to catch up to the ball and try to hit it to the right side if he is hitting RH and of course the other way from the left side of the plate.

I agree that too much bat effects your mechanics. I am saying move up in weight until you have a drop in technique or bat speed. I have seen too many kids with too much bat that can hit but get no power on the ball because they just don't swing it fast enough.
How big is this eighth grader who is swinging a 34/31?
Seems big to me but my son is only 12U so I am guessing.

Dblinkh1, sent you a PM

Lodi,
My son is a big guy. He seems to swing it pretty easily. Some of the coaches said that nobody swings a 34 in HS, but I kind of doubt that. He did pop up a little bit at the start of the season but he is driving it now. We shall see when we see a hard thrower but there aren't that many in 14U. I think the best we have seen this year is mid 70's at best. Most teams throw junk at us. We have winter nationals with 20 or so teams coming up. We should see a hard thrower or two then.

If he driving the ball, I would let him keep swinging it. No doubt a 34"bat is big for an 8th grader,but you don't argue with results.

Doughnutman,
My son is a sophomore at a Catholic high school in a strong league. Several seniors at his high school will go D1. There are no players swinging a 34" bat. He's also on the Norcal team that PG Crosschecker recently ranked highly in 16U. Nobody on that team swings a 34. They swing 33s and 32s. By the way my kid is a pitcher, not a hitter, so I'm not worried about whose kid swings the bigger bat.

Maybe it is good for your son to use a 34, but it is not common. In fact, I'd say it is unusual.

Advantages of swinging lighter bats are as follows;

A: Kinetic Energy Conservation

During collision of bat and ball, Kinetic Energy (KE)of Bat is transferred to the ball. To make the discussion simple, let us ignore (a) energy lost in friction and heat due to the ball compression, and (b) trampoline effect due to thin barrel walls.
KE of bat = ½ mass of bat * speed of bat squared. (KE=1/2 mv^2). So the bat speed has larger effect on KE than the bat mass. So, if you increase the bat weight and reduce bat speed, then you will be at a considerable disadvantage. The goal should be to not reduce the bat speed.

B: Timing

Another disadvantage of heavier bat will be that the hitter will have to start swinging the bat sooner to connect the ball as bat speed is slower. This will mean that he will have to estimate the ball placement a lot sooner and hence possibility of strike increases. For lighter bat, the bat spped is high so the hitter can afford to wait a little longer before starting to swing the bat. He will be able to see the ball a little longer and hence better chance of a hit.

Thanks for reading.

3Fingered Glove,
Why would they not swing a heavier bat if they are strong enough to do it? I would assume that there are some pretty big kids on those teams? Does the bat being an ounce lighter make that much of a difference? I know they don't make them bigger. I would assume that someone would use a 36 inch model if they were allowed.
Wait, are they allowed or is there just not a market for bats larger than 34 inch so nobody makes them?

Dr. Jay, Do you have the math on just how much slower a swing would be by adding an ounce vs. the increased force of an ounce heavier bat? Does the slightly bigger sweet spot give any advantage also?

My son is playing college ball at JC. Most all the players use a 33oz bat. Look at Bonds , doesnt he swing a light bat for his size,I do not get moving between three bats all at once as someone mentioned , maybe its different, my son likes one bat , feels awkward using anything else, same bat his senior year is what hes using in JC ball.I think for most as you get to the level where the pitching is good you cant change your bat with a slower pitcher, good pitchers will change their speed all the time.ANyway I guess whatever works for each player.

Last question before I forget it. Is there a rate of diminishing return with the speed of the bat? Say if a kid can swing a 32 inch bat 85 mph and a 34 inch bat 80 would the increase in weight, especially since it would mostly be in the end of the bat which would increase the sweet spot also give more distance to the ball plus increase a better ability to square it up?

And I am not saying that my son can swing it like that LOL.

Fanofthe game,
That seems a little strange to me. All kids have different bat speed and strength. Why would they all use the same size bat? Sounds more like superstition. Is there a reason? And I am not trying to start a fight with anyone. I am just curious.

Doughnutman,
Here's the requirements for a FED baseball bat:
Each bat shall be:
In diameter at thickest part: (wood) 2¾ inches or less
In diameter at thickest part: (non-wood) 25/8 inches or less
In length: 36 inches or less
In weight: A bat shall not weigh, numerically, more than three ounces less than
the length of the bat (e.g., a 33-inch-long bat cannot be less than 30 ounces).

So a 36" bat is legal. In fact, however, the major manufacturers of collegiate bats make 3 or 4 sizes, all at a -3 drop, maxing out at 34/31. I think fanofthegame meant 33" when she wrote 33 ounces. 'cause I don't think you can buy a 33 ounce non-wood bat. Actually, darn few pros are swinging 33 ounces these days. Robert Adair, in his book The Physics of Baseball, tells us that Maris used 33 ounces in '61, while Hank Aaron used 31 and 32 ounce bats throughout his career. Conversely Mantle used 38 and Dick Allen used 40. I have read that Bonds used a 31 ounce.

By the way, Adair says that a typical MLB bat is 2.5 inches in diameter. It has to be that small to keep the weight low, and it should tell you something about the importance (or lack therof) of the size of the "hitting area", at least for wood bats.

Collegiate players tend to use 33" bats (typically 32" among strong HS players) because that seems to provide the best offense. A heavier bat will hit the ball farther, but maybe not as much as you would expect. Adair estimated that if a 46 oz wood bat hits the ball 389 feet, the same batter would only lose 7 feet by using a 32 oz bat. Conversely, if the batter reduces the weight from 32 to 30.5 ounces at constant length, he estimates that the batter gains 6 inches on a 90mph pitch.

One thing to keep in mind when discussing non-wood bats with a constant -3 drop: Adding 1 inch and 1 ounce to the bat has roughly twice the effect on swing speed as adding 1 ounce without changing the length. That's because the added weight is also farther away from the pivot point of the swinging bat. So if you have your son use a 33" instead of a 34", the distance he hits the ball will probably be minimally changed, but he will have picked up close to a foot on the pitch.

There's no market for longer/heavier bats, because using them would rob hitters of time necessary to recognize pitches. And the market for shorter bats isn't strong among older kids because it is hard to cover the strike zone.

D-Man your son must have wrist/forearms like
Paul Bunyan.My son hits off a tee and batting cage
in the off season with a Mizuno maple bat.Then hits
with a -8 during the season, he is a tall 12 y/o with strong wrist's.

VikramSports, I think your post supports what I said. Increase bat weight to the point of decreasing bat speed. If you can increase weight without loosing bat speed that would be ideal.
Someone else mentioned "diminishing returns". Yes at some point you get less out than you put in. Also their are different combinations of weight and bat speed that achieve the same result. So it is possible for 2 players of similar build and development to swing different combination of weight to length ratio and achieve similar results.

quote:

Originally posted by dblinkh1:
VikramSports, I think your post supports what I said. Increase bat weight to the point of decreasing bat speed. If you can increase weight without loosing bat speed that would be ideal.

I agree with that statement.The problem is with players going to far one way or another.Too heavy a bat and the barrel head tends to drop and drag through the zone affecting mechanics.Too light and they lose some of the inetia.I probally shouldn't use those fancy words as I am no scientist but I think most know the point I am getting at.

Sugi, that was well put. Mechanics 1st

Glove,
Thanks for the info. Greatly appreciated. So an ounce is equal to 4-6 inches on a fastball at 90. So if my son starts falling behind when we see more 80+ mph guys I might suggest he use his old 32/29. He also likes the added length because he gets pitched away most of the time. Usually breaking balls and he likes the extra 2 inches.
Great they make 36 inch bats. He will probably ask for one if he finds one on the net. On a side note, wouldn't that make pitch recognition the most important part of hitting? That would make up for just about anything. Hitting a 100 mph fastball would be easy if you knew it was coming and read the movement correctly. Maybe we(baseball players) should spend more time strengthening the eyes instead of the core. Probably both actually.
Thanks again.

westcoast buckeye,
My son also swung a 32/24.5 when he was 12. A 32/29 at 13 and the 34/31 at 14. He has the strongest hands. When he was 5 he won a dollar from a guy in the park when he hung from the top of the swings with one hand. The guy(a friend of ours) bet him he couldn't do it for a minute. 5 minutes later I told him to knock it off and come down. Mom was getting worried. He was about 20 feet high.

Doughnutman, great questions.

To answer your first question, people have studied the bat speed versus bat weight (or more precisely bat MOI or swing weight). The correlation will depend on the batter swinging the bat. For a strong hitter, the bat speed will not decrease much when you add one oz towards the barrel end. For a small hitter it will.

With respect to the second question, yes there will be diminishing return when you decrease bat weight. Below certain threshold weight, the bat speed will not increase much and hence KE will decrease.

Just my two cents.

Regards,l

PS: I visit Phoenix / Mesa often

3FingeredGlove,

Thanks for claryifying that I am not always great at all the specifics as you are. You really should be named the most technical, with your experetise on rules, bats, etc etc, I always enjoy your posts. You always inform people and dont make them feel stupid.anyway dougnutman, maybe it seems strange but they alomost all use the bat I mentioned. My son does not like anything heavier, and a couple kids use others, I said most. One of the kids who uses a heavier bat is 6'5 and 240 pounds.anywayys individual likes I guess,and dont evr worry about starting an argument with me, If I say something wrong as the way I quoted the bat, correct me as 3 fingers did. That way I learn.The reason I know this as half the team used my sons brand new stealth (400) LOL during fall ball

Doughnutman,

Most of the Fresno St players use 33" and they lead the CWS with homeruns and avg; one of the only players who use a 34" has a long swing, but has challenges with adjusting from a 90+ pitch to an effective off speed ptich due to a long swing.

I am sure dealing with a 70 mph pitch is a little different than having to adjust to quality pitchers who can change speed effectively. If your son has effective bat speed and pitch recognition, he will not have to worry about plate coverage with a 33" bat.

dblinkh1, yes I agree with your last post. Well put.

Homerun,
I understand that the bat is a little too heavy for him. But he likes it and he thinks it is the right bat for him and he is hitting very well with it. I am sure he will change many times before he is done playing. But it does make him stronger.

One thing I don't get is why is everyone using 33" bats. I hadn't thought about it before this thread(or knew about it). Logically, one size doesn't fit all. All kids have different levels of strength and bat speed. Why does a smaller kid with a slower bat speed use the same size as a big guy with greater bat speed? In any sample you will have a range of bat speed from the slowest to the fastest. Logic would seem to be that the slowest use 31 or 32 inch bats and fastest use 33 or 34 inch bats. On a typical college roster you would have around 12 kids using 33 inch, 12 kids using 32 inch and 12 kids using 34 inch to get the increase in speed they need. But it looks like most are using 33 inch regardless of differing abilities. Is everyone recruiting mainly kids that can swing a 33" bat and ignoring or changing kids once they get them if they don't?

To me, this looks more like it is more about style or a one size fits all mentality than anything that really makes sense.

Another question that pops into my devious head is the long swing vs. short swing debate. Ken Griffey JR. has a long swing IMO. He has done OK. I understand that a shorter swing gives a player more time to react and that is a good thing. But do you consider a short swing to be the distance a bat covers once the swing has begun or how fast the bat gets to the ball after the swing has begun? Basically, can you get by with a longer, more powerful swing if you swing, for example, 10 mph faster than the short swing guy? However it is measured.

Doughnut- It's just too big and does not literally make him stronger. The reality is that they have found using a weighted bat will actually slow your swing down. The biggest kid we had last year (6'1, 205 13 league-aged 8th grader) tried swinging a 34" (because he thought he could) for part of the year. He switched to a 33" and started hitting the ball 400'+. Alex Real, who you know, swings a 33" wood and he might be the strongest 2011 in the country. Just my 2 cents.

NC Ball,
Alex's Dad was the one who told me it was way too big for anyone too swing. But he is 6'1"+ and around 175-180 pounds of bone and muscle and he is hitting it 380 plus now with only one or so strike outs a tournament. He is at least as stubborn as his Dad and he is going to have to fail before he makes any change. But he is young and I am sure he will make many changes over the next few years.
I am not real sure that swinging a heavy bat makes you slower and weaker. I am sure it will be a slower swing than if you swing a lighter bat, thats common sense, but it has to make you stronger. Why use a 16 poung medicine ball to train if a 10 pounder does the same thing? Was the study done on growing kids or people that had maxxed out already and were trying to get faster? How long of a time period was it?
I have a brain that is a bit twisted at times and it makes me think of these kind of things. I do not mean any offense to anyone. It is just how I think. I always try to poke holes in things. For a living, I deal with fraud on a regular basis. So by nature and training I always dig in with both hands to see if a theory holds weight. Nothing personal, I just like to see if it makes sense or if it is done because it has always been done that way. Or maybe it is a new way of thinking and needs to be tested. I am quirky that way.
Quite honestly I don't have strong feelings either way. My son has always wanted to use the biggest bat he could find. It makes him happy and confident at the plate and he has been very successful so far. And that is all that matters now. He wouldn't change his bat now even if I told him too. He's the player.

And we love Alex, a great kid with a lot of talent who busts his tail to get better. My son looks up to him. Great kid.

Doughnut- I'm talking about using a weighted bat in the on-deck circle. they've done alot of studying and it shows you are slower. I'm not talking about using something heavier for training purposes. We had a great time last week with all the AZ kids. I will be shocked if Pinnacle does not win state. Incredible talent and great kids!

NC Ball,
I think Pinnacle will be a power house for the next 3 years or longer. The line up they have is amazing. The only thing I wonder about is pitching. They have three pretty good kids but you can never have enough good arms. So how did the lefty pitcher and the catcher do? I won't see them until Tuesday and I want to know if I should give them a hard time for missing our tournament(we only had 9 bodies due their absense and the holiday) or did they do good enough to excuse them this time?

They did a good job and, more importantly, they are great young men. You should have come with them! One day.... Tony B is the real deal and a great kid btw. Very impressive.

Can nobody talk about the 33" myth? why use it if it is just a fad? I would really like some proof.

I am 13. I swing a 32 inch bat. When I went out to cooperstown dreams park I played on a nationaly recognized team team Coca Cola. Now a kid on my team 6'4 175. SWUNG A 29 INCH BAT , A 29 INCH BAT. COME ON A 34 31 THAT IS A BIT HEAVY DONT YOU THINK?

Catcher,
14 year old vs. 12 year old is a big difference LOL. My son is 6'1" 175 180. He can swing it.

Now, any info on the 33" myth?