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HELP OPPOSE AMERICAN LEGION'S BAN OF ALL COMPOSITES

M mister_mojo10+ posts
In case you weren’t aware of it, American Legion (national office) has recently adopted the following:

PLAYING REGULATIONS RULE 1

A. Bat Rule. Wood or metal, bats may be used.
1. Wooden bats are permitted under Official Baseball Rules.
2. The maximum length is 36 inches and the maximum diameter is 2 5/8 inches.
3. The knob and end plug (if applicable) must be firmly attached.
4. A bat may not weigh, numerically, more than three units less than the length of the bat (e.g., a 34-inch-long bat cannot weight less than 31 ounces).
5. THE AMERICAN LEGION IS PLACING A MORATORIUM ON ALL COMPOSITE BATS FOR THE 2011 SEASON.
6. Non-wood bat (aluminum) must have an approved, coded certification mark on the barrel of the bat signifying the bat is legal with either BERS or BBCOR bats are permitted in competition in 2011.
7. Effective with the 2012 season, non-wood bats with the BBCOR certification will only be permitted.
8. For all games and practice use, all non-wood bats must have leather, rubber or taped grip securely attached to the bat handle.
9. Any bat that fails to meet these specifications or, in the umpire’s judgment, has been altered to affect the distance factor or cause an unusual reaction on the baseball shall be removed from the game. The batter shall be declared out. Base runners shall not advance.

When asked what is meant by the phrase “all composite bats”, National Program Coordinator Jim Quinlan replied in an email last week as follows: “ANY COMPOSITE (EVEN COMPOSITE HANDLES ARE NOT PERMITTED)."

Here is Mr. Quinlan’s explanation for American Legion’s position regarding why they are not allowing certain BESR composite bats that are allowed by the NFHS (again in an email last week):

“Up until a few weeks ago both NCAA and HS Federation banned composite bats. Both organization banned composite bats last summer.. Shortly after the first of the year, HS FED reversed themselves and granted waivers for certain composite bats. However other youth groups including The American Legion have not granted waivers. Little League also banned composite bats until 1 week ago and they granted a waiver to Easton for a couple of models. We simply do not have funds to test bats and it was the believe of subcommittee that studied the issue that it would create confusion and potential liability issues with umpires as to providing a list of a "approved" bats. American Legion is going to keep issues simple this year – only BESR bats in 2011 – Only BBCOR bats in 2012 – no composite bats.”

However, Mr. Quinlan has not offered any explanation as to why American Legion is banning the following:

(1) BESR-certified aluminum barrel bats with composite handles

(2) BBCOR-certified composite barrel bats

American Legion is failing to make a distinction between aluminum-barrel bats with composite handles and those bats that have a composite barrel. They are lumping all bats that have any composite materials – even the new BBCOR-certified composite bats – into one large category (i.e., “composite bats”) and banning all of them.

Legion baseball’s new rule will require a player who uses a legal BESR-certified aluminum-barrel bat during the spring season to get a different bat for the summer. And, then if that player is going to play high school baseball in 2012, he will need to get a new BBCOR bat next spring. So, basically, the player will need three different bats in three successive seasons.

The rule will place an unnecessary financial burden on baseball families. There is no reason to ban BESR-certified aluminum-barrel bats during the summer of 2011. No facts have been presented by any governing body to indicate that there are any safety or performance-related issues with these bats. Moreover, the BBCOR testing protocol includes Accelerated Break-In testing procedures for composite-barrel bats which eliminate the possibility of tampering that would cause them to exceed performance standards. Thus, there is no reason to ban the new BBCOR composite-barrel bats.

I would strongly urge you to contact the following to voice your disapproval of this new rule:

Jim Quinlan, National Program Coordinator
American Legion
P.O. Box 1055
Indianapolis, IN 46206
(317) 630-1249
jquinlan@legion.org

Larry L. Price, Chairman, Baseball Sub-Committee
= Person contact info removed by request - MN-Mom =


If we all act together in a responsible manner to oppose this ruling, there may be time yet to get it changed for the 2011 season and spare our baseball families unnecessary confusion and expense.

Please copy the body of this message, paste it into an email message and send it to other Legion coaches in your state, plus coaches you may know in other states, and ask them to please take action now to get this rule changed as soon as possible.

Thank you!
Last edited {1}
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CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by mister_mojo:

Legion baseball’s new rule will require a player who uses a legal BESR-certified aluminum-barrel bat during the spring season to get a different bat for the summer. And, then if that player is going to play high school baseball in 2012, he will need to get a new BBCOR bat next spring. So, basically, the player will need three different bats in three successive seasons.



Your premise isn't quite correct. At a minimum, this player is going to need one bat if he buys a BBCOR bat for use this spring. Most will not, because we understand that the currently eligible BESR bat is hotter and they will elect to use that. However, the rules will require a new BBCOR bat the following spring, which means that if they choose a BBCOR non composite handle, they can use that bat for both Legion and in their HS season the following spring, meaning they would only need the required two bats.

While I agree that the premise of banning composite handled bats is an error, it isn't as egregious as you are trying to make it, as there is an alternative of purchasing an non composite BBCOR bat.
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
I think the rule shows some ignorance on the part of the rules makers in Legion but I don't think it is going to affect too many people in the grand scheme of things.

If you have a BESR composite today, chances are very good that it is already illegal in every other form of play so it's kind of a moot point.

I do have a problem with the composite handle portion. That makes no sense at all. If a kid is good enough to get a hit off a composite handle while holding a metal barrel, he should get some sort of an award. Big Grin

It’s going to be a fun year dealing with the new bat rules, no matter where you live or play.
VectorVector1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by mister_mojo:

I would strongly urge you to contact the following to voice your disapproval of this new rule:

Jim Quinlan, National Program Coordinator
American Legion
P.O. Box 1055
Indianapolis, IN 46206
(317) 630-1249
jquinlan@legion.org

Larry L. Price, Chairman, Baseball Sub-Committee
= Person contact info removed by request - MN-Mom =



From my perspective they should have never changed from wood, much less make bats more and more powerful over the years.
So thanks for the info. I will be calling to support their decision.

My suggestion to you is buy the new bat in advance and get use to it, rather than feel compelled to "buy three different bats in three successive seasons".
Last edited by MN-Mom
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
What happened to the god old days, when the coach had a bag of bats in his trunk and everyone used one of those? Sure, some felt better than others, but no one blamed grounding out on the bat. Go back to wood- everywhere.


You talking about the good old Easton Black Magic? The one we had felt like it was the same size as a telephone pole.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
Where do I go to back the Legion decision? Composites/hot bats never should have been allowed in the first place at any level. Here's how removed from the times Legion is ... a 36 inch bat! Has anyone seen a 36 inch metal bat?

Besides, I'm anti-Legion. In our area Legion's solution to travel ball is bash travel at every opportunity. The more kids who leave Legion for travel the more Legion people bash travel. Three years ago I challenged the Legion team with our 16U team full of fifteen year olds. They backed down. But they still bash travel. A kid who hit .250 for our high school team last year was one of the stud sluggers of the Legion league.

Signed,

Dad of a pitcher and former third baseman
Last edited by RJM
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
You talking about the good old Easton Black Magic? The one we had felt like it was the same size as a telephone pole.


This was way back, coach. We only had Adirondacks and Louisville Sluggers (I'd swear some just said Hillerich).

Ha, did you ever try the black Easton wiffle bat? It feels like a 34. That should be banned, too. Destroys the ball.
B BAC10+ posts
I like the idea behind the rule but...having different rules for different leagues this year along with BBCOR being the rule next year is crazy and particularly for me...expensive. I would prefer they simply go to wood.

Here is my situation. My son had a composite bat last year so we realized that this year he would need a new bat. We read all the rules for NFHS and he recently bought with his own money a BESR metal barrel/composite handle which is legal for this year. He does plan to play Legion this year. So now he needs a different bat for Legion? He doesn't have the money for another bat and neither do I. My son had already planned on saving for a BBCOR bat for next season but adding this new Legion requirement is crazy at this stage.

While I agree 100% with the safety concerns and I actually prefer wood, I don't have a problem with going to BBCOR for next season. But the staggering of the introduction of these rules with organizations having different interim rules is absurd for everyone except the bat makers who now can recover their losses on all the composite bats they produced.

Consider these very conservative costs that some people are paying:
- 2010 BESR Composite bat - $200
- 2011 BESR Metal barrel w/ composite handle for NFHS play - $200
- 2011 BESR Metal bat for Legion play - $200
- 2012 BBCOR bat - $300-$400

So in this scenario many people are paying conservatively $900+ for bats in effectively 2 years. Yes we could simply bypass the Legion BESR bat and purchase a BBCOR bat but I think most people agree about waiting for the BBCOR bats to be flushed out this year and to not unduly restrict my son's performance compared to his competition by using a bat with less pop during the season.

So I don't agree with the Legion rule. I think they should either go wood for the season or stick with the NFHS rules but not some other late breaking more restrictive rule which is only going to cost people more $$$.

Just my $.02,
BAC
CS coach scotty10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
That silver and green Easton (about 1979) took metal bats to the new age. Then the Black Magic put bats on steroids....

RJM: Legion is still good in some parts of the country, with dedicated respectful veterans trying to help youth.


HAHAHA that's the two bats my HS team had. A 32 inch silver and green and a 34 inch black magic. I don't know what the weight was but I would swear the black magic was a plus instead of a drop.
E EastsideRHP1210+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
Besides, I'm anti-Legion. In our area Legion's solution to travel ball is bash travel at every opportunity. The more kids who leave Legion for travel the more Legion people bash travel. Three years ago I challenged the Legion team with our 16U team full of fifteen year olds. They backed down. But they still bash travel. A kid who hit .250 for our high school team last year was one of the stud sluggers of the Legion league.

Signed,

Dad of a pitcher and former third baseman


You sound like a s****r parent from Oregon. They use to only have club s****r in the off season for the better players. Some parents wanted better comp. so they formed travel elite teams. The club parents complained. Then some parents from the elite travel team formed a select travel team. The club and elite tean parents complained. Now no one is happy, cause there are too many leagues and the talent level is watered down.
F freddy775,000+ posts
My reaction to that letter was surprise that Legion still allows metal bats.

Around here, both 17u and 19u Legion are wood bat, and I assumed Legion was wood bat everywhere--as far as I can tell, that's the trend for 18u summer programs playing serious baseball.

If you're old enough to shave you're old enough to swing a real bat. IOW, take off the training wheels.
Last edited by freddy77
PD PA Dino500+ posts
A composite bat in the hands of a future draft pick or DI prospect is a lethal weapon to a third baseman or pitcher of lesser skills. Many a Legion tournament can be populated with draft picks mixing with below average players. Legion is wise to move toward clarity in the bat business and I would be pleased if it led to a voluntary return to wood bats. The memory of Brandon Patch would be honored.
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PA Dino:
A composite bat in the hands of a future draft pick or DI prospect is a lethal weapon to a third baseman or pitcher of lesser skills. Many a Legion tournament can be populated with draft picks mixing with below average players. Legion is wise to move toward clarity in the bat business and I would be pleased if it led to a voluntary return to wood bats. The memory of Brandon Patch would be honored.


I don't think anyone could argue against that very well stated point. I know I wouldn't.

To me, the issue is that a composite HANDLED bat with a metal barrel isn't a composite bat. It's defined as a metal bat and I think that is really where Legion missed the boat. I also think they should allow composite bbcore bats (but why anyone would buy one today is beyond me). I do think their decision shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the bat issue virtually every other sanctioning body is dealing with.

They really would have been much better off moving to all wood, as many here have stated. At least that decision would show a little common sense. Banning composite handle bats is like banning blue bats or red bats or green bats. It just makes no sense.

At the end of the day, what legion is doing simply adds more confusion to an already completely screwed up situation.

JMHO...
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Sorry. I appreciate Legion's clear and concise rule as opposed to other leagues and codes.


Bingo.....I'm with jimmy...

No composites....period....seems pretty clear to me....


I don't see how this is "clear and concise". "Just wood" is clear and concise. "Just wood and BBCOR" is clear and concise. "Just wood and BBCOR but not any BBCOR that has any composite, even though, by definition and regulation, it performs the same as other BBCOR and practically every other sanctioning body approves" is not clear and concise.
There are seamless composite/metal hybrids coming out. If any have a painted finish, there is no way the consumer or the official will be able to determine if they are composite or metal (think Louisville slugger H2 with a solid color handle). Not all will say "composite". They will come up with new "techy" names as they always do that will not necessarily spell it out. Clear and concise? You're going to have to have a multi-page exception or approved list that is constantly changing every time a new bat is made. It would be WAY easier just to look for "BBCOR" or see that it is wood.
Last edited by cabbagedad
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
BBLefty,
I hear you but remember, the BBCOR composites have the same performance restrictions that the metals have. I have thrown tons of HS and 18u Batting practice the last few years and there have been plenty of squared up liners from wood bats that would inflict the same serious damage as from other bats - thank you, L-screen.
That being said I'm not saying metal and composite aren't more lethal than wood (even BBCOR), just saying the new BBCOR guidelines should prove to be the same for metal and composite.
Last edited by cabbagedad
BumBum1,000+ posts
A few years back, my son was pitching in a travel tournament in Helena, Montana. The teams were using wood.

That night, I went back to the hotel, turned on the T.V., only to hear a first-hand report of a legion pitcher, in a game in Helena, getting struck on the forehead by a line drive back to the mound. That night.

The kid died.

Ban the d*** things.
Last edited by Bum
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Sorry. I appreciate Legion's clear and concise rule as opposed to other leagues and codes.


Bingo.....I'm with jimmy...

No composites....period....seems pretty clear to me....


I don't see how this is "clear and concise".


What don't you find clear about "No Composite Bats"?

There is no "except for...", or a list of "waived bats."

No composite bats. D@mn clear and concise to me.
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
Jimmy,
With less ping in the metal bats and more seamless composites, it will become more difficult to distinguish material makeup of some metal and composite bats - that is what some consumers and officials may find unclear about "no composite bats".
Also, you said there is no "except for"...
OP stated that...
"They are lumping all bats that have any composite materials – even the new BBCOR-certified composite bats – into one large category (i.e., “composite bats”) and banning all of them."
So they are allowing BBCOR "EXCEPT FOR" BBCOR composites.
I was in the industry when this same thing came down with slowpitch. Only when they got away from exception/approved lists and started using universal stamping without exceptions (i.e. BBCOR) did things become less of a disaster.

Antz... not a dumb question.
Bats with composite handles are touted as either having desirable flex (think golf club - stiff or regular, etc.), vibration dampening, weight reduction or some combination of those features.
Last edited by cabbagedad
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Jimmy,
With less ping in the metal bats and more seamless composites, it will become more difficult to distinguish material makeup of some metal and composite bats - that is what some consumers and officials may find unclear about "no composite bats".
Also, you said there is no "except for"...
OP stated that...
"They are lumping all bats that have any composite materials – even the new BBCOR-certified composite bats – into one large category (i.e., “composite bats”) and banning all of them."
So they are allowing BBCOR "EXCEPT FOR" BBCOR composites.


*sigh*


Okay, you win. You can complicate the uncomplicated. I am impressed.

However, forgive me if I concentrate on the intent of the complaint of the OP and the subject of my response: Legion's rule bans composite bats. All composite bats. No exceptions.

To quote the rule: THE AMERICAN LEGION IS PLACING A MORATORIUM ON ALL COMPOSITE BATS FOR THE 2011 SEASON.

The way I read that is that no composite bats will be allowed in Legion games, but let me look at it again....yep, no composite bats,

Still pretty d@mn clear...and concise.
Last edited by Jimmy03
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
So one of the bats mentioned in many threads dealing with this issue is the Baum bat. I think most everyone agrees that it is a great alternative that gives you the best of all worlds. It performs exactly like wood but lasts longer due to the construction. It is even used in some lower minor leagues.

Not going to be legal for use in Legion now. Period. Does that make sense to anyone?

Legions rule may be clear and concise but it lacks reason and common sense and injects yet another layer of confusion in the subject.

Both the NCAA and NFHS state the type of bat is determined by the material in the barrel. The handle has no bearing in that. This whole issue deals with the trampoline effect of the material in the barrel. The barrel is what hits the ball, not the handle.

Again, unless the players are holding the metal barrel in their hands and going yard with the composite handle, the legion rule makes no logical sense.

I am 100% in lockstep with legion on the fact that they will not allow BESR composite bats that meet the BBCOR standards like the NFHS is doing but I also think they missed the mark by not allowing BBCOR stamped composite bats. I think the NFHS opened a giant can of worms by putting out that moratorium list of besr rated composite that they will allow. That was just crazy.

If the legion rule has anything to do with safety, they should be embracing any and ALL BBCOR stamped and certified bats since they clearly have less performance than the BESR metal bats they are going to allow.
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
One last comment on the Legion rule that is a little different than the rest of the discussion.

The more I step back and think about this, the more I think Legion missed a great opportunity to differentiate themselves as they continue to struggle to compete with the ever increasing showcase teams.

Had Legion just taken the extra step of mandating wood, they would be a league that is a little different than almost all of their showcase counterparts. Look how many high level college leagues play with wood in the summer. It makes sense to me.

Not to mention the fact that the legion games can be brutally long with 9 inning games where it isn’t uncommon for them to finish in the 3 to 4 hour range with scores of 25 to 19.

Someone should tell them it isn't too late. Big Grin
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