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Announced today.....why bother?  This is a joke!!!   125 pitch max (more if you need to finish a batter) and only 3 days rest til you can do it again??  I didn't expect much, but this is even worse than I would have expected...I figured 115 or maybe 120....and 4 days rest for the max

Grades 9 through 12 can throw 125 pitches daily.

With zero days rest, up to 30 pitches are allowed; one day of rest can allow 31-50 pitches; two days of rest would allow for 51-75 pitches; three days rest would allow for 76-plus pitches.

Some other important points:

  • A pitcher may finish the current batter if the daily pitch limit is reached during that at-bat. If a pitcher throws at least 31 pitches, he may not pitch in the second game of a doubleheader (or the next day).
  • At the end of each game, coaches will submit pitcher number and pitches throw in the designated data collection system.
  • All pitches thrown in a suspended game or “no contest” game shall count toward the daily pitch limit and total number of pitches thrown.
  • All pitches thrown in a scrimmage or preview shall count toward the daily pitch limit and the total number of pitches thrown.
  • Each school/team must keep a record of all pitches thrown by each of their players in each game and make this available upon request to the OHSAA.
  • Any player pitching during a period in which rest is required is considered to be pitching as an ineligible player. (Any victorious contest in which an ineligible player is participating will results in a forfeit).
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In reality you could throw 130+ on Monday, Friday and again Tuesday.  Close to 400 in 8 days.  The "committee" was made up of HS coaches here in Ohio.  Doesn't make a lot of sense considering those guys are the ones responsible for the problem....how hard did anyone really think they would be on themselves and their colleagues??

WV is the same but caps at 110. All these states seem to be breaking the days on the same numbers and have eliminated the 4 day rest schedule in pitch smart by extending the # for 1 and 2 days rest to 20 and 25 pitches instead of the 15 pitch breaks in pitch smart. I'm hoping this is just first year intro to allow folks to get used to the idea and pitch smart will be followed as the guideline next year

I am curious how the "committee"  was made up, as far as what division the coaches came from or do all get a say. I wonder if smaller schools would vote for shorter rest. Since many may not have the pitchers available to rest their number 1 or 2 especially in tournament time.

 

PS Buckeye 2015 are you on the yappi forum also?

Lol....yep, that obvious huh?  I know a few of the coaches who were on the committee.  I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most weren't small schools.  The 3-day thing will be big come tourney time, so that coaches can maybe get thru the tourney with 2 starters.  I would have been ok with 3 days rest max if the pitch count would have gone no more than 105-110, but at this point, I'm thinking this only came into effect because it was forced by the NFHS...it doesn't seem like it's any help to kids whose coaches are abusing arms.  

CustomX?   The bat company?   My son's team played against Custom X back when he was 11 or 12.....great team and good times.....wish he'd have stayed 12 lol

My thought (for all the states), is at least there is pitch counts codified.  It was a big step for HS baseball.  They can be modified through input later.

The Texas max is 110.  Original proposal had 110 for varsity, 95 for JV/freshman teams.  Midnight eraser removed the 95 and made all max at 110.  No one answers who made the change.  The "why" is given as too complicated.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The idea behind pitch counts isn't necessarily to completely protect the entire class of pitchers from any overuse at all. It's mainly to get rid of the gross, over-the-top incidents. They set the numbers at a level where coaches still have some control and flexibility, yet at a level where they will never have to face those viral stories about the kid that threw 195 pitches. We're on our second year of pitch counts here in Colorado. Except that the number is 110, the rest is about the same. We also are required to post stats (especially pc #'s) on MaxPreps within 24 hours of a game, so we have a pretty good data base. I poured over it extensively. I only found one case that came close to a situation where a coach rode a player right up to the limits at every possible opportunity. The vast majority of schedules don't allow it anyway. Even though it's statistically possible, you have to have some faith in the coaching community.

roothog66 posted:

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The idea behind pitch counts isn't necessarily to completely protect the entire class of pitchers from any overuse at all. It's mainly to get rid of the gross, over-the-top incidents. They set the numbers at a level where coaches still have some control and flexibility, yet at a level where they will never have to face those viral stories about the kid that threw 195 pitches. We're on our second year of pitch counts here in Colorado. Except that the number is 110, the rest is about the same. We also are required to post stats (especially pc #'s) on MaxPreps within 24 hours of a game, so we have a pretty good data base. I poured over it extensively. I only found one case that came close to a situation where a coach rode a player right up to the limits at every possible opportunity. The vast majority of schedules don't allow it anyway. Even though it's statistically possible, you have to have some faith in the coaching community.

Good point....I do have "some faith" in the coaching community lol, but I also have seen enough to know that "some" is probably being nice.  I can't count how many times I've seen kids in our area (and friends of my son) throw entirely too many pitches....on entirely too little rest....especially at the end of the season where a team may be trying to win a league title then rolls right into the sectional tourney.  When kids pitch so much that they can't throw in the summer when college coaches can see them, it's a problem....or they can't stay in shape the summer before they head to college because their arm is sore from throwing too much in April and May, it's a problem.  How about showing up as a college freshman in the fall throwing 6-7  mph less than you threw when you were recruited because you were shut down all summer because your threw way too much in the spring or worse yet...can't throw at all and sit around watching their college team practice.  All 3 of these scenarios are kids I know just from last year's graduating class. The 3-day rest thing is more of an issue to me than the 125 pitch max, but I guess we'll have to let the coaches conscience deal with it since the rule doesn't.

Buckeye 2015 posted:
roothog66 posted:

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The idea behind pitch counts isn't necessarily to completely protect the entire class of pitchers from any overuse at all. It's mainly to get rid of the gross, over-the-top incidents. They set the numbers at a level where coaches still have some control and flexibility, yet at a level where they will never have to face those viral stories about the kid that threw 195 pitches. We're on our second year of pitch counts here in Colorado. Except that the number is 110, the rest is about the same. We also are required to post stats (especially pc #'s) on MaxPreps within 24 hours of a game, so we have a pretty good data base. I poured over it extensively. I only found one case that came close to a situation where a coach rode a player right up to the limits at every possible opportunity. The vast majority of schedules don't allow it anyway. Even though it's statistically possible, you have to have some faith in the coaching community.

Good point....I do have "some faith" in the coaching community lol, but I also have seen enough to know that "some" is probably being nice.  I can't count how many times I've seen kids in our area (and friends of my son) throw entirely too many pitches....on entirely too little rest....especially at the end of the season where a team may be trying to win a league title then rolls right into the sectional tourney.  When kids pitch so much that they can't throw in the summer when college coaches can see them, it's a problem....or they can't stay in shape the summer before they head to college because their arm is sore from throwing too much in April and May, it's a problem.  How about showing up as a college freshman in the fall throwing 6-7  mph less than you threw when you were recruited because you were shut down all summer because your threw way too much in the spring or worse yet...can't throw at all and sit around watching their college team practice.  All 3 of these scenarios are kids I know just from last year's graduating class. The 3-day rest thing is more of an issue to me than the 125 pitch max, but I guess we'll have to let the coaches conscience deal with it since the rule doesn't.

That was my first reaction to the rest time when Colorado implemented their rules - why the three instead of four day rest period? I also think most states followed Colorado's lead on that one. I believe the reason they did so was so coaches could protect their ability to have some flexibility on this when the playoffs roll around. In Colorado that hardly matters because we play each round over a weekend schedule, so there is, at minimum five days between allowed pitching appearances during the post-season.

I also have come to realize that if indeed a kid is brought back on three days rest after a 100+ pitch start a couple of times a year, while it isn't ideal, it's probably not anything to get too worked up about. Such damage comes from consistent overuse rather than any one time stress event. Most schedules wouldn't make it an issue even if a coach wanted to do this. What this has eliminated, though, is what was happening especially at small schools (or most schools back when I played). Some of those schools would ride one pitcher relentlessly.  I have a pitcher I coach during the summer that attends a 1A school here in Colorado (enrollment of less than 50 for this school). At 1A, he's really dominant.

The year before the pitch counts went into effect, he started EVERY SINGLE game - every one. Often he's throw 130 pitches on a Monday and be back out on the mound on Wednesday. It was insane. After the rules went into effect, the coach had no choice but to use more pitching - those one and two day rest periods became a thing of the past. Two years ago, I saw another example in the state championships at 3A. We play a double elim state tournament. A particular team made it out of the losers bracket into the finals, but had to win two games. They put their ace on the hill and he won, throwing 131 pitches. After a half-hour break, he took the mound and threw the first two innings of the second game - another 44 pitches. Now, a part of me was furious, but I have to admit another part understood the thinking of both the coach and the pitcher. This kid was a senior who was not playing beyond high school. He hadn't really been overused during the regular season (this was a pretty reasonable coach). Now, the debate I had with other coaches was one where the other side would argue that this was a special occasion and that the risk outweighed the reward. I can see that argument and I don't blame that coach. What the rules in effect now do, though they may not be as restrictive as many would like, is take that kind of decision completely out of the picture. In a way, it takes a lot of pressure off the coach while still allowing him some freedom to individually make decisions about what is best for his players.

That's really not that bad.  A pitcher will still only pitch a max of 2 games a week.  Big schools will have 3, max 4 games a week.  Smaller schools have 2, max of 3 games a week.  It will force schools to be more creative with scheduling and I think that's important.  P1 pitches against strong schools, P2 pitches against weak schools, P3 if necessary.  As of now in CA everyone goes on 1-2 days rest as pitch rules are based on innings.  Since we only play 7 innings you can take P1 out after a big lead and he can go again against a bottom feeder school the next game to pump up his stats and get him a scholarship.  Matthew Manning, first CA pitcher selected (#9 Tigers) had a 4.42 ERA against strong schools and a 0.00 ERA against weak schools.  

Last edited by hsbaseball101
hsbaseball101 posted:

That's really not that bad.  A pitcher will still only pitch a max of 2 games a week.  Big schools will have 3, max 4 games a week.  Smaller schools have 2, max of 3 games a week.  It will force schools to be more creative with scheduling and I think that's important.  P1 pitches against strong schools, P2 pitches against weak schools, P3 if necessary.  As of now in CA everyone goes on 1-2 days rest as pitch rules are based on innings.  Since we only play 7 innings you can take P1 out after a big lead and he can go again against a bottom feeder school the next game to pump up his stats and get him a scholarship.  

That all changes this year as all states are required to revert to an innings based limit system. I'm not sure if California finalized theirs or not, but what I had seen looked a lot like most other state with a 110 or 115 top end cap and three days rest at the top end. Stats would know.

Here's my issue....and it will happen.  With Ohio's new rule, you could pitch 130+ (you can finish a batter) on Monday, Friday and again on Tuesday meaning you could conceivably be well over 350 in an 8 day period.  I'm sorry, but that's too many.   It is better than the old system that was 10 innings over 3 days as you could have thrown 150+ on Monday then come back and thrown another 3 innings on Tuesday or Wednesday.....but it would have been much better to go with a 110 pitch max....and definitely 4 days rest if they were going to go to 125

roothog66 posted:

That all changes this year as all states are required to revert to an innings based limit system. I'm not sure if California finalized theirs or not, but what I had seen looked a lot like most other state with a 110 or 115 top end cap and three days rest at the top end. Stats would know.

 

It’s funny that I just talked with our coach about this. The CIF hasn’t released the final rule to the coaches yet. Seems kinda silly to get this close to starting the season without the rules being finalized, but it is what it is.

 

The last I heard it was 0-30 – no rest required, 31-50 – 1 day of rest required, 51-75 - 2 days of rest required, 75-110 – 3 days of rest required, anything over 110 requires 4 days of rest. Unfortunately until they send out the final rule no one will know. L

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Here's my issue....and it will happen.  With Ohio's new rule, you could pitch 130+ (you can finish a batter) on Monday, Friday and again on Tuesday meaning you could conceivably be well over 350 in an 8 day period.  I'm sorry, but that's too many.   It is better than the old system that was 10 innings over 3 days as you could have thrown 150+ on Monday then come back and thrown another 3 innings on Tuesday or Wednesday.....but it would have been much better to go with a 110 pitch max....and definitely 4 days rest if they were going to go to 125

I was worried about the same math, but after pouring over every Colorado team I didn't find a single time where it happened. I only found one team where it came close to happening once or twice, but missed by a couple of full days and quite a few pitches. I find the math to be worrisome, but far more theoretical than real. Here is the very closest case I came to this situation (the pitcher who threw the most innings in the state in 2016, by the way): 

4/6 - 56 pitches; then on one day rest

4/8 - 110; then on 3 days rest

4/12 - 94 - didn't pitch again until 4/19

 

5/5 - 107; then on 4 days rest

5/10 - 98; then on 3 days rest

5/14 - 30 - this was a first round playoff game

So, I think this was stretching the rules, but it was the absolute closest case I could find to your worry concerning what is possible (and I had the same attitude - I assumed that it WOULD happen).

Stats4Gnats posted:

roothog66 posted:

That all changes this year as all states are required to revert to an innings based limit system. I'm not sure if California finalized theirs or not, but what I had seen looked a lot like most other state with a 110 or 115 top end cap and three days rest at the top end. Stats would know.

 

It’s funny that I just talked with our coach about this. The CIF hasn’t released the final rule to the coaches yet. Seems kinda silly to get this close to starting the season without the rules being finalized, but it is what it is.

 

The last I heard it was 0-30 – no rest required, 31-50 – 1 day of rest required, 51-75 - 2 days of rest required, 75-110 – 3 days of rest required, anything over 110 requires 4 days of rest. Unfortunately until they send out the final rule no one will know. L

Yes, Stats, but also with a lower max limit (I think 90) for JV and Frosh. I hope it gets published soon. Still waiting for CIF-SS competitive equity playoff system to be announced for baseball, too. Lots of rumors, but nothing official. First games are 2/25 so it's getting close.

In TN it's a120 cap with 4 days rest but 119 only gets 3 days rest. I bet no one ever throws that 1 more pitch lol. 

But it is better than a limit of 10 innings in 48 hours. Which is all we had.

The second week of the season I was out of town and my freshman son threw 3 innings Monday, 4 innings Tuesday, 2 innings Wednesday, 3 innings Thursday, all in relief innings then capped the week off with a 6 inning 128 pitch complete game Friday. I had to have a come to Jesus meeting with the coach which I did not want to do. So at least the new regulations will help some. 

I also just took a look at how they handled the 1A pitcher I mentioned earlier. He still started every game, bu they held his pitch counts down. He threw:

3/25 - 33

3/29 - 48

4/1 - 52

4/4 - 30

4/7 - 52

4/12 - 39

4/15 - 91

4/22 - 52

4/28 - 54

5/6 - 104

5/14 - 64

5/14 - 34

5/19 - 75

 

The last three dates were post-season (they won the 1A championship). The 1A schools here play fewer games because they get a late start. At this level almost every kid plays every sport and the basketball playoffs overlap with the start of baseball season. These are very small schools. Most of the baseball teams have at least one girl playing and many athletes will play two or even three Spring sports at the same time, running from track meets to baseball games to soccer matches.

Scotty83 posted:

In TN it's a120 cap with 4 days rest but 119 only gets 3 days rest. I bet no one ever throws that 1 more pitch lol. 

But it is better than a limit of 10 innings in 48 hours. Which is all we had.

The second week of the season I was out of town and my freshman son threw 3 innings Monday, 4 innings Tuesday, 2 innings Wednesday, 3 innings Thursday, all in relief innings then capped the week off with a 6 inning 128 pitch complete game Friday. I had to have a come to Jesus meeting with the coach which I did not want to do. So at least the new regulations will help some. 

Wow, that coach deserves much more than a "meeting"....that guy has no business coaching HS baseball...absolutely none.  Had kind of the same situation with my son when he was a freshman.  JV game, in early April on a 40 degree day.  He was up to 90 thru 5....and we were up by 8 or 9 runs.  I wasn't there, but my buddy keeps the book so he was updating me.  Soon went back out for the 6th....3 errors later he was at 120.  Coach hadn't warmed anyone up.  I called my wife and told her to tell him he was done.  She talked to him thru the fence.  He told the coach his arm wasn't feeling great.....coach said "finish the game".   To coach's amazement when they went out to start the next inning, the catcher was now pitching and my son was in the gear....lol.   Coach is a friend of mine.  It was/has never been mentioned between us, but I think he go the idea. 

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