Great point doughnutman. The problem is not the kids, it's the parents of kids.
TX Husker, It's not the parents either. There truly is no problem. Every generation thinks the current crop of future leaders, care givers and every other position haven't a chance to be as good as they were. But they will work hard, produce, invent and do things that we can't even imagine.
And when they have kids that are teenagers, they will say that the generation doesn't have a chance. They will also be wrong about their kids.
And when they have kids that are teenagers, they will say that the generation doesn't have a chance. They will also be wrong about their kids.
quote:Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:quote:Originally posted by luv baseball:
I luv the the team first discussion. With the exception of War or survival it's un-American. We spent 50 years in the Cold War over the concept that individual rights and freedom is better than the collective. I believe that is true and it extends to kids playing sports acting like idiots.
The NFL will dump you even if you are a model citizen if it becomes a "business" decision. Let's see if Peyton Manning gets the same treatment Namath, Montana and Unitas got at the end of their careers. It's in the best interest of the "team" to dump him...becasue he is just another piece of meat and a younger version has come along.
How many people stay with their employer (team) if they can double their pay somewhere else? Unless there are mitigating factors such as travel, relocation or work conditions most people are gone.
America works best when people do what is best for them individually within the law. It is when we move away from that and start messing around with things to try to do what's best for segments of the population or the "team" that things start going wrong.
So....Individual Good / Team Bad.
I think we went waaay off topic here.
Hypothetical question here. I would guess you have a son that plays baseball. Let's say he goes on a visit to University of South Carolina. He comes back and you ask how it went. He says "It sucked. they told me I would be the Friday night starter and would play shortstop on days I didnt pitch, while batting third. Also offered me 80%, but I turned it down. I wanted the Number 1, but the punk coach said a senior already had it, so I told him to take his offer and stick it."
I guess you congratulate him for standing up for his individual rights.
Mizzou- in that example, it would be because the "punk coach" wears #1.
You may be right, Doughnutman. You can't really prove or disprove that. My point is when you see individual kids that are problems, take a look at the parents and you generally see the cause of the problem. They are not just born that way...it's a learned behavior.
I think the D-man is correct that we shouldn't fear for the future based on what our teenagers are doing today. The vast majority of them will grow up and become sober productive citizens just like they always have. Then there will be 6 or so that become the Jersey Shore.
If we hold the mirror up and closer to the point is they have a much more legitimate fear for their future based on what we are doing and may do in the next 5 years.
If we hold the mirror up and closer to the point is they have a much more legitimate fear for their future based on what we are doing and may do in the next 5 years.
I agree luv. What we and the "greatest" generation are currently doing to the youngsters is criminal and far exceeds any grief we may feel about them doing stupid kid tricks-while being kids.
What I'm talking about is bankrupting the country and leaving the kids a debt that cannot possibly be paid.They had no hand in that. We did it.
That's what's really wrong in America pops.
What I'm talking about is bankrupting the country and leaving the kids a debt that cannot possibly be paid.They had no hand in that. We did it.
That's what's really wrong in America pops.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Great point doughnutman. The problem is not the kids, it's the parents of kids.
And WE are the generation that raised these kids
quote:Originally posted by njbb:quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Great point doughnutman. The problem is not the kids, it's the parents of kids.
And WE are the generation that raised these kids
Scary!!!!!!
As a retired teacher of close to 40 years I remember when i started you expected the students to perform and when they did not their grade reflected such and I never heard the term self esteem. As I progressed through the years if a student was not doing well it was because of (fill in the blank). It never was because the student was not putting in the time goofing off etc etc.and god forbid if you got on them as it might hurt their self esteem. I coached for 25 of those 40 and with the atmosphere today I would last about a week as I might get on a player etc etc and be told I was too tough and emotionally destoyed him. too much sarcasm? Maybe a little truth?
I blame Dr Spock
The biggest difference between this generation of kids and other generations if our generation of parents. While it's probably not many people on this board because we've raised competitive kids, the current generation of kids has been coddled like no other. It's probably because our generation had it soft. Kids have been loaded up with false self esteem and an overloaded sense of self. Teachers, and often coaches have to walk a line of coddling rather than getting in kids faces when it's needed.
Imagine today, a teacher picking a wise a$$ kid off his feet and holding him in the air and getting in his face. It was done to me in 8th grade. I earned it. It straightened me out. I was grateful the office never called my home. My father would have got in my face then grounded me for life.
Imagine today, a teacher picking a wise a$$ kid off his feet and holding him in the air and getting in his face. It was done to me in 8th grade. I earned it. It straightened me out. I was grateful the office never called my home. My father would have got in my face then grounded me for life.
I see words like coddled and entitled all over this string and I think there is definately truth there.
We have created a society that has expectations beyond just having life's basics is normal. For example things like cable TV, cell phones, air conditioning, refrigerators and cars are things we as a nation view as "essentials". For most of the 6 Billion people on the planent these are total luxury items.
Think about this...We are the only country in history where poor people are fat. In a society like this to think that there are distorted points of view about what any individual should "have" compared to what they "earn" shouldn't be a huge surprise.
We have created a society that has expectations beyond just having life's basics is normal. For example things like cable TV, cell phones, air conditioning, refrigerators and cars are things we as a nation view as "essentials". For most of the 6 Billion people on the planent these are total luxury items.
Think about this...We are the only country in history where poor people are fat. In a society like this to think that there are distorted points of view about what any individual should "have" compared to what they "earn" shouldn't be a huge surprise.
quote:Teachers, and often coaches have to walk a line of coddling rather than getting in kids faces when it's needed.
today Get in a kids face today If you are a coach you could be in the ADs office if a teacher you could be in the principals office.
When I coached girl's basketball I was reported for patting a girl on the back. It wasn't the parent of the girl. This is how conscious some parents are of getting the establishment. The father of the girl said he wouldn't worry about me if I hugged her. When girl's teams won big games or championships I stood in front of my chair frozen with my arms folded so nothing could be misinterpreted. My parents were concerned coaching girls was inviting a lawsuit.quote:Originally posted by Will:quote:Teachers, and often coaches have to walk a line of coddling rather than getting in kids faces when it's needed.
today Get in a kids face today If you are a coach you could be in the ADs office if a teacher you could be in the principals office.
all you have to do is talk to some of the occupy people. there is a mentality with some that they are owed something. If they do not get what they want it is somebody elses fault. Oversimplication or right on?
As Jimmy Buffett said, we are the people our parents warned us about...
Seriously, I think part of the problem is that these things get more visibility than in years past. There is probably a larger group of those who feel they are entitled as well, but I believe the majority out there are still doing things the right way...Unfortunately, many doing it the wrong way get the headlines...
As a side note regarding #s, on most of his baseball teams since he was 9, my son has worn the same #. In a couple of cases where they handed out #s rather than choosing, he took what he was given (but would have traded in a heart beat!). He was lucky enough to get his favorite # all through HS. Everyone (including a former coach) assumed that he'd go for that # if asked this season as a Freshman in college. I told the former coach what # he would be wearing. Coach asked jokingly, "so he thought the guy with his # was too big to fight for it?" I told him that my son had learned his lessons well and knew it was not a good idea to try and fight the Head Coach for his favorite #!
When he told me what # he had asked for, my son told me and I asked him why. He chose the number that one of his high school coaches wore. That coach passed away just before my son's Junior year...
Seriously, I think part of the problem is that these things get more visibility than in years past. There is probably a larger group of those who feel they are entitled as well, but I believe the majority out there are still doing things the right way...Unfortunately, many doing it the wrong way get the headlines...
As a side note regarding #s, on most of his baseball teams since he was 9, my son has worn the same #. In a couple of cases where they handed out #s rather than choosing, he took what he was given (but would have traded in a heart beat!). He was lucky enough to get his favorite # all through HS. Everyone (including a former coach) assumed that he'd go for that # if asked this season as a Freshman in college. I told the former coach what # he would be wearing. Coach asked jokingly, "so he thought the guy with his # was too big to fight for it?" I told him that my son had learned his lessons well and knew it was not a good idea to try and fight the Head Coach for his favorite #!
When he told me what # he had asked for, my son told me and I asked him why. He chose the number that one of his high school coaches wore. That coach passed away just before my son's Junior year...
quote:Originally posted by Will:
all you have to do is talk to some of the occupy people. there is a mentality with some that they are owed something. If they do not get what they want it is somebody elses fault. Oversimplication or right on?
I think that is exactly the case.
They think its the Governments job to take care of them. To provide for them. To make everything ok. How about this? Get a freaking job. Go to work. Provide for yourself.
What do these people do for a living? They obviously don't work becaue they are camped out in tents crying for someone to give them something.
Since when was it anyone else's job to make sure you got what you wanted? Get off your rear end and go get a job.
What do these people do for a living? They obviously don't work becaue they are camped out in tents crying for someone to give them something.
Since when was it anyone else's job to make sure you got what you wanted? Get off your rear end and go get a job.
quote:They think its the Governments job to take care of them. To provide for them. To make everything ok. How about this? Get a freaking job. Go to work. Provide for yourself.
Since when was it anyone else's job to make sure you got what you wanted?
answer to the above Since some elected officials told you.
quote:Originally posted by Will:quote:They think its the Governments job to take care of them. To provide for them. To make everything ok. How about this? Get a freaking job. Go to work. Provide for yourself.
Since when was it anyone else's job to make sure you got what you wanted?
answer to the above Since some elected officials told you.
The reason the elected official tells you that is he forgot he's there to serve in the best interests of the people instead of trying to make sure he keeps his job.
Keep the job? You bet, they've been able to sweeten their own pot so much (health care, benefits, pensions etc.) there's no way they'll walk away from it... even if the job itself is not what they enjoy doing.
Then vote them out of office. No these people don't get want they want so they "occupy." Is that what it has come to in America? Where does it end? Our guy doesn't get in. The guy in doesn't give us what we want. So we occupy? I thought in America we changed things by voting someone else in?
Maybe I just don't understand all of this stuff.
Maybe I just don't understand all of this stuff.
This has been an interesting discussion. My son is still in his college search, but he is focused on what will get him to grad school for Nuclear Engineering. We talk about potential salaries, the projected job market for nuclear engineers (better than my husband and I thought), and other areas he should look at for better marketability.
On the other hand, I have a work colleague with a relative who is getting a degree from a top notch liberal arts college and is expecting to get a high paying job right out of school because of where he is going to school. His major? Comparative Religions. Another graduate of the Entitlement Group.
On the other hand, I have a work colleague with a relative who is getting a degree from a top notch liberal arts college and is expecting to get a high paying job right out of school because of where he is going to school. His major? Comparative Religions. Another graduate of the Entitlement Group.
My son had the #15 for the majority of his youth. When he came up to varsity as a sophomore in HS, his good friend (a junior) had the same number. He didn't complain, he just picked another number. Fastforward to his senior season in HS (last year) and he wore #15.
In the HS playoffs last year (actually, 2 years in a row), my son faced another signee from the university they'd be attending...he also had #15. One of the other dad's pointed this out, and jokingly stated, "the winner of this AB will determine who gets the number". My son struck him out, and we had a good laugh. Fastforward to this Fall, and neither one of them were wearing that number. I asked my son why he picked the particular number he has, and he simply stated "that's what they gave me, Dad...I don't care, I just want to play!" Ironically, the two kids that battled in the playoffs and wore the same number at their respective high school's are not only college teammates, but they're roommates too.
I agree with what RJM stated when he started this thread..."Any kid choosing a college based on number availability isn't mature enough to be in college."
In the HS playoffs last year (actually, 2 years in a row), my son faced another signee from the university they'd be attending...he also had #15. One of the other dad's pointed this out, and jokingly stated, "the winner of this AB will determine who gets the number". My son struck him out, and we had a good laugh. Fastforward to this Fall, and neither one of them were wearing that number. I asked my son why he picked the particular number he has, and he simply stated "that's what they gave me, Dad...I don't care, I just want to play!" Ironically, the two kids that battled in the playoffs and wore the same number at their respective high school's are not only college teammates, but they're roommates too.
I agree with what RJM stated when he started this thread..."Any kid choosing a college based on number availability isn't mature enough to be in college."
quote:I agree with what RJM stated when he started this thread..."Any kid choosing a college based on number availability isn't mature enough to be in college."
not even mature enough to be in HS. mine had uniforms where small sizes were the small numbers, and big sizes were the large numbers. from a practical standpoint, he decided to go with a uniform that fits.
I visited Occupy Boston out of curiosity. It wasn't out of control like some of the other Occupies. But the agenda was the same. I talked with a kid who was ticked he couldn't find a job. The conversation went something like this ...quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Then vote them out of office. No these people don't get want they want so they "occupy." Is that what it has come to in America? Where does it end? Our guy doesn't get in. The guy in doesn't give us what we want. So we occupy? I thought in America we changed things by voting someone else in?
Maybe I just don't understand all of this stuff.
ME: How many interviews have you been on?
HIM: About five or six.
ME: Do you think that's enough?
HIM: It should be.
ME: I came out of college during the Jimmy Carter years. I started by interviewing with over ten companies. I got a job in the worst economy since the Depression.
HIM: But this is worse:
ME: Why?
HIM: This is the worst economy since the Depression.
ME: Who told you that?
HIM: Obama
ME: How come my daughter had no trouble finding a good job?
HIM: She must know someone.
ME: She wouldn't let me help. What was your gpa?
HIM: 3.0
ME: Do you realize you graduated in the pack with every stoner who went to college? You didn't distinguish yourself. What job or community service did you do in college?
HIM: I didn't.
ME: What was your major?
HIM: I got a BA in Philosophy
ME: What does a 3.0 in Philosophy qualify you to do? Are you going to replace Socrates and Plato? You're complaining about your college loans yet you now need to go to grad school for a useful degree. Or you can learn to say, "Would you like fries with your order?"
Then I closed with, "How many job interviews have you been on since you pitched your tent?"
HIM: None. This cause is bigger than a job.
ME: What do you do all day to make it bigger than a job?
HIM: I can't talk with a facist anymore (walked away)
Because you went to college you "deserve a job?" Because you have student loans someone should help you with them? I know a man who went to college and got a degree in Forestry Management. He couldn't land a job in Forestry Management. So he took a job at BoJangles. For those of you who don't know its a popular fried chicked fast food joint. He started out cleaning and taking orders at the drive through window. He busted his butt and worked his way up to assoc manager. He then got a Managers job at a local BoJangles. Now he is a regional Manager and makes over 100k a year.
How many times have we heard "I just can't find a job in my field." OK how about just getting a job and going to work? "I didn't go to college to work at McDonalds." Ok how about just getting a job and going to work and then continue to work on finding something in your field? "Are you serious I am not going to work some place like that." Then your not hungry enough and you don't understand how the real world works.
I think this is very much in line with the original topic. You wear what ever number we give you because its not your choice. Its not why your here or what its about. When you have earned the right to pick your own number then you can pick your own number. When you have been here long enough and done what you need to do then we can talk about what number you want. Otherwise shut up and play. Or in otherwise shut up and go to work.
Wanting a number is fine. Earning it is even better.
How many times have we heard "I just can't find a job in my field." OK how about just getting a job and going to work? "I didn't go to college to work at McDonalds." Ok how about just getting a job and going to work and then continue to work on finding something in your field? "Are you serious I am not going to work some place like that." Then your not hungry enough and you don't understand how the real world works.
I think this is very much in line with the original topic. You wear what ever number we give you because its not your choice. Its not why your here or what its about. When you have earned the right to pick your own number then you can pick your own number. When you have been here long enough and done what you need to do then we can talk about what number you want. Otherwise shut up and play. Or in otherwise shut up and go to work.
Wanting a number is fine. Earning it is even better.
quote:Posts: 1389 | Location: Phoenix AZ | Registered: May 02, 2007 IP
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quote:HIM: None. This cause is bigger than a job.
ME: What do you do all day to make it bigger than a job?
HIM: I can't talk with a facist anymore (walked away)
Who do you think won that argument? From my discussing such things with people I learned that when they call you a name you won the argument
quote:Then I closed with, "How many job interviews have you been on since you pitched your tent?"
HIM: None. This cause is bigger than a job.
ME: What do you do all day to make it bigger than a job?
HIM: I can't talk with a facist anymore (walked away)
quote:Originally posted by Prime9:
RJM;
I would have to agree with your premise citing this as an example "of something being wrong in America."
As I read through the thread and the examples cited, and add those to my personal experiences, I'm not sure this is a total societal problem.
I mean, we aren't all raising selfish, irresponsible kids. And, not every Coach condones such garbage. There is, however, a "segment of society" or perhaps a few segments that this "I deserve something for nothing or should have what I want, and don't disrespect me by not letting me have it" attitude.
Perhaps their behavior stems from American societal issues; like being raised on welfare, having food and shelter without a need to work for it. Not having a father who insisted on them behaving responsibly and SO FORTH and SO On!
You are right, we don't see it much in baseball, but it's everywhere in football. I know my comments can be construed as racially insensitive but that's not my intention. Nor do I believe the me first attitude is running amock across the Americas.
I always love it when folks say it is not their intention to be racially insensitive. Racially insensitive to whom, all of the above applies to all races not one imparticular. But who am I to question your intent. At least from my observation, the vast majority of kids playing baseball are white, while football is much more diverse. Oh, I get it that is why we don't see it in baseball. But again, who am I to question your intent. Obviously kids who play baseball can't ever be immature or selfish. They would never do something stupid because they did not get thier number.
The first time I went there I figured I could experience the news rather than accept what I see on the news. Occupy Boston was not like Occupy Wall Street in terms of much of the behavior. They worked out ground rules with the mayor and police comissioner. Over six weeks I visited four times. I spoke with protesters. I spoke with the police. The police disagreed with the protestors. But they would say "The kids are behaving." In Boston the protestors wanted a nonviolent protest with a discussion on their percieved problems.quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:quote:Then I closed with, "How many job interviews have you been on since you pitched your tent?"
HIM: None. This cause is bigger than a job.
ME: What do you do all day to make it bigger than a job?
HIM: I can't talk with a facist anymore (walked away)Nice. 3.0 in Philosophy...not sure he even knows what fascism is. When they call you a name or curse you, you absolutely have won the argument.
The kids were easy to talk with even though I disagreed with them. They would get frustrated when I asked logical questions. But the kid who called me a facist was the only kid who got diificult with me. And I did zing him with the "fries" comment. It was the 50+ age protesters who were beligerant. They've been fighting the anti-establishment battle since the 60's.
A month later I was in the city the day the mayor gave his get out of Dodge by midnight proclamation. In the evening I went down to check the mood of the place. After chatting with some people I attending the general assembly to hear how they would deal with the eviction. The police had given out eviction notices saying the park would be cleared at any time after midnight. There were about 300 protesters at the GA and about 50 curiosity seekers like myself. Then I went off to have dinner at a nearby restaurant.
When I returned about 11pm there were about 1,000 people on the block. While chatting with an officer I commented in a queried tone they're not going in with this number of people around. He responded probably not.
The Boston Globe reported Occupy Boston defied the eviction notice with the force of 1,000 strong. The truth is there were 300 protesters and 700 people there (like myself) to see if they were going to get their heads cracked. The police went in the following night at 5am and arrested the forty remaining Occupiers.
About 1am the last night I had an interesting coversation with a community organizer. He was about my age. While I'm not a Tea Party member (I am Republican) we talked about where the disagreement with government was similar, where the two parties break and head in different directions. It was an interesting converation.
The community organizer was there trying to convinvce the Occupiers getting arrested was not a solution give the major and police chief had been reasonable with them for more than two months. He missed the last train out of town. I had my car in a garage a few blocks away. He asked if I could give him a ride home. When I dropped him off in Cambridge (go figure) I told him with a smile this is just another case of someone on the left getting a free ride. He laughed.