hidden ball trick plays

IMO Bush.  Heck I would like to see this put in the Balk category.  An attempt to deceive the runner.

That's a great play.....if you're 12U      I would have no respect for any coach who did that in HS....that's not baseball

" Its like the running through first and turning towards 2B instead of turning foul, you should be able to tag the kid on his way back to the bag"

The rule does not require the kid to turn back to the bag in foul territory.  The rule states that you can not make an attempt towards 2nd.  If you over run the bag, slow down, start walking and turn into fair territory you are not making an attempt to go to 2nd.

I say teach your baserunners not to run if they don't see the ball. It isn't bush, it's a trick play... if you get tricked what are you going to do, say "oh we got beat on a bush league deal"... you are still out. teach your team to play the right way and hope they pay attention to you.

I've called it about 4 or 5 times in 20 years so I guess Buckeye has no respect for me.. fine.

It's only worked once or twice.

thanks for the clarification on 1B joe...thats bugged me for a while, now i know why! haha.  

However, with the trick play, is it bush to run the play, or is it bush to fall for it? Im coaching HS in a very rural northern maine area. Im sure our HS teams around here are about the quality of a 14u team in a place like california where they play all year. lot more kids and weather for it, lot more competition. I can think of a few teams off the top of my head who would probably fall for this. 

is a MIF pick on a first and 3rd steal bush? or is the runner on 3B bush if you catch him going home? whats the difference? 

trojan, totally agree! 

once or twice can be a big deal if youve got a 1 run lead in the 7th inning. 1 out and nobody on with a huge morale buster is a lot better than runner on 2B with 0 outs and a rally waiting to happen.  

Here is what is bush: whining or worrying about what the other team is doing, having rabbit ears for the crowd, pimping it at the plate, and complaining about umpiring excessively...

Prepare your team...

IMO, I dont really see this different from these cases which are documented in the NFHS case book...

joe, your first scenario is different. your second not so much. Heres my thoughts.

and as you mentioned, yes, i hope some umps do chime in, we are bringing up some good talking points i think. 

in your first scenario, as you mentioned, there is a verbal obstruction. also, a fly ball would force the runner back to 1B, an overthrow (or fake overthrow) is not a force play. The runner makes the decision on his own to leave the bag. dont make that decision of you dont see the ball. 

in your second, another auditory obstruction executed by a player who is not on the field. but not a force play. the runner makes the decision on his own to go. Again, dont go if you dont see the ball. Theres background noise of all sorts during games. if your head is more focused on whats happening on the other side of the fence than whats happening on the field, maybe you deserve to be out. 

A MIF pick is different than a fake infield fly. however, again, play heads up. if its an infield fly, blue will call it. i dont want my baserunners taking pointers from the other teams second baseman.  

This whole thing reminds me of derek jeter mocking the double play ball on the fly out hit and run earlier this year...i forget who the baserunner was. 

I like how people call it bush and no respectable HS should run a hidden ball trick.  Ummm the video was on a college and I have seen Florida and Oaklahoma both run hidden ball tricks.  HOW DID THEY EVER GET JOBS?  THEY ARE SO BUSH!  Lol, whatever!  

From the umpire's perspective, I see a pitcher in a legal set position who goes into his stretch, makes a feint toward second base and disengages the rubber.  Nothing balk-worthy going on there.

I see two fielders diving clear of the runner's path toward spots where the faked throw might have gone.  Nothing obstruction-worthy going on there.

We ran into a team in a travel tournament at 12U who ran that play and another that was very similar. I didn't think it was bush until I saw that they ran it every game. And I noticed that at 12U they held their own in Majors tournament, but by the time they were 14U the game had passed them by.

Seems to me it's like a fake punt or halfback option.  If you run it once in a crucial situation, it could help you win.  But if that's all you got, your weakness will be exposed and all the trick plays in the book are not going to help you.

Good point JCG. definitely not something to run every other game. just at an opportune moment against an overzealous baserunner/not so heads up team. just another tool in the box, not something to spend too much time rehearsing. i could see myself using it a couple times a season maybe if the right situation comes up, and probably never against the same team haha. 

From the umpire's perspective, I see a pitcher in a legal set position who goes into his stretch, makes a feint toward second base and disengages the rubber.  Nothing balk-worthy going on there.

Just to clarify I was not saying it was a balk, just that if the intent if balk rule is to stop someone from deceiving a baserunner this is not all that much different.

FYI, I am not complaining if my team looses because of this "trick". Its on us to make sure we know whats going on on the field.  I just believe in playing the game hard and not relying on deception or tricks to win the game.  

I totally hear what your saying Joe! I was right in that boat with you...until i coached for a year. check out my thread about standing close to the plate to draw walks. an opposing team did that to take away the inside corner from my pitcher and man, it worked quite well. huge epiphany i had after a few experiences like that. Part of playing the game to the best of your ability is the ability to identify and exploit the weaknesses of the other team. 

Joes87,

I think I understand where you're coming from. In high school rules the definition of a balk (an illegal act by a pitcher with runners on base that entitles runners to a free base) does not mention intent or deception. To the extent that specific balk rules punish deceiving the runners, it is a particular category of deception:  making them believe the pitcher is delivering a pitch when he is not. Not all deception is bad. Not all balk moves are inherently deceptive. 

Joe, I disagree with you.  The hidden ball trick is a totally legitimate play.  If you don't like it, coach against it.  Teach your players how to defend it.  When it works, the runner looks stupid.  When it doesn't the other team looks stupid.

1)  the two plays are illegal because in the first the defense is saying something that a runner would expect the offensive coach to say (run the play without the verbal and it's legal; it's also legal at higher levels where players are expected to know the difference between their coach's voice, and that of F4) and in the second are using "non-game" objects to fool the runner.

2) The OP is also in the case book and is legal (sorry, I don't have the book here to check).

3)  The purpose of the balk rule is not to prevent deception, but to prevent illegal deception.  The play presented is legal.  I get that some might think it's "bush", and heck, some might want to make it illegal (as an example, OBR makes it illegal to fake to third now; but some might want to go the other way and make a fake to first legal), but as an umpire I don't care and just call it as presented.

3a) As a fan of the Game (capital letter intended), I think that the coach should spend more time on fundamentals, and then add in a play later.  Too often, the "trick play" is all I see when a team can't even field the ball, or doesn't know where to throw it, etc.  But, I get that adding one can be "fun" for the kids and might keep them interested in the Game.

4) If we go beyond balks / pitching moves, everyone relies on "deception" to try to win a game.  The cut-off man pretends to catch the throw; with R1-R3, F2 might fake a throw to second and then throw to third; the offense might use the walk-off play.  If F3 crashes hard in a bunt situation, and F4 sneaks behind to take a pick-off attempt -- is that "bush?"

5) To coach Z -- what does the acronym "MIF" mean?

MIF = Middle InFielder

heres another good example. not a hidden ball trick, but a tricky/heads up baserunning play. somebody last year posted a video of a college team doing this to steal home and walk off with the win! again, its not bush to run it, its bush to fall for it. This is the MLB. if anything, it takes extra savy and a heightened awareness of the game to pull these types of plays off.... kind of like Pujols tagging up on Puig earlier this year, you guys remember that one? hillarious! ...I dare you to call Pujols bush!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbHoNIRHUMA

Pujols tagging up on Puig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srf4Phxss-M

It's not illegal to deceive a runner.  It is illegal to illegally deceive a runner.

It's LAME but plenty of coaches try it in youth ball. If you can get that out and take the runner off 2nd, why not? We occasionally played a team from Columbus that was NOTORIOUS for doing this almost every game in every tournament. To each his own.