High School aged teams should be formed by grade!

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

As a college coach, it makes sense for me to be able to watch a team and know they are in a specific graduating class.

I'm going to tell my son to change his number to 11. As 14U Majors we played up in half the non-elite tournaments (made semis two of three). This fall the plan is to play up in all six tournaments to see how the boys handle it week to week.

I suppose I could brag my son is playing up two years with his late spring birthday, but he and I see him as the same age group he started in before the date change. By high school, the player can play or he can't. Age becomes irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

ya said grad yr would be important to a coach watching YOUR team --
then ya make him watch YOU play (up) vs a team with OTHER grad dates???

to be consistent supporting grade level grouping, you must ONLY play at your own level ...
or the college coach watching your team play UP would be confused (according to Red & ncball) by the other team with players in a different grad class


but - a pro scout would likely rather see players grouped by age ...
it's not be rare for any hs class to have a 2 or even 3 yr age range (ie: jrs could be 16-17-18 yrs old)

college & pro both scout players, NOT teams & many are capable of reading a roster & grad date -
those that aren't usually ask someone nearby

Bee,

My opinion on playing by class has nothing to do with confusing scouts or college coaches, it is merely for development purposes. What good does it do for a 13 year old man child to play on a 54/80 diamond? I don't see anywhere in my posts that refer to confusion.

The point that ncball and I are trying to make is the development is more important than the $10 trophy. Having a kid stay down because he can because of his age, is detrimental (IMO) to his development.

Why do we play up?
1) Because we can...physically and mentally
2) Because our kids will compete against kids 2-3 years older than them when they play in HS
3) Because it is fun to kick the older kids' butts when they think they will walk all over us because we are smaller (from a couple of our players' mouths)
4) But, most of all, because it makes them better. The game happens quicker...decisions need to be made sooner.

spizzle- Thanks for the nice words. How is your son doing? He's a great young man. I was always impressed on how he handled himself. That goes alot farther than ability (with which he was also blessed).

I'm coming in late to this discussion - but want to echo the support for the notion of organizing by grade. In some ways I am uniquely qualified to comment as my son, an 08 (obviously) played for NorCal this summer - and "played up". Thanks to the changes in birthdate, he could have played on the 16u- but instead played with the 17u.

It was the best possible exposure for him - he played in front of literally hundreds of college coaches and representatives from every major league team saw his team play. Had he played with his age group, he would have still had exposure - but from talking to parents on that team, nowhere near the exposure that he got.

It was also the best possible experience - his team was filled with players of great talent - and great team skills. It was a very supportive environment - with players sharing in the best of times and picking each other up at the worst of times. This is his second year in Norcal and both were experiences that were outstanding in every sense of the word.

08

ncball you have a pm

quote:

by Red: My opinion on playing by class has nothing to do with confusing scouts or college coaches, it is merely for development purposes. What good does it do for a 13 year old man child to play on a 54/80 diamond?

I'm guessing we might be on the same page if the topic is clarified to "advantages of playing up" - not sure how a 13 yr old on a small field got into "High School aged teams should be formed by grade" topic

congrats & a great story 08dad, but seems more related to "playing up"

our 800 student hs is typical/or on the big side in this region -
we have fresh, jv, & varsity baseball. typicaly 1-4 freshman will see JV/Varsity PT ...

for summer baseball these guys normally play legion (19U) or travel (17U or 18U)

it'd be absurd to send these guys back to their freshman team-mates for summer league competition

if population density is high enough in nor-cal to justify class grouping that's just dandy, but to assume your situation exists thru-out the nation is in error -

so ... if it works for ya .. yipee!
just don't try to convince AABC, NABF, USSSA, CABA, etc that nor-cal is typical of "anytown USA"

jmo

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
congrats & a great story 08dad, but seems more related to "playing up"

No, its more related to playing with your grade in his case rather than based on the crazy new birthdate cutoffs.

quote:

...if population density is high enough in nor-cal to justify class grouping that's just dandy, but to assume your situation exists thru-out the nation is in error.

I don't see how this alone justifies putting HS kids by age. There's no birthday cutoff in college...why would you want to prepare for college by playing with kids a grade younger? So you can win more? Who cares?

quote:

by jbb: ...why would you want to prepare for college by playing with kids a grade younger? So you can win more? Who cares?

I have no clue what you're referring to ... I'm pretty sure it's leaving my keyboard OK ...
ya may want to check your end

my capable 15 yr old freshmen will play 17U/18U, or Legion (19U) with any team they can get on, team-mates likely rising jrs & srs, opposition rising jrs & srs

when a player gets to college he would be playing w/against guys 3 grades ahead of him (4+ yrs older) ...
why would YOU & NCBALL hinder his development by asking him to play only with team-mates in the same grade thru-out hs summer league ?? it sounds more like a marketing ploy

and why would ya want to hinder the development of hs freshmen in Ohio by forcing them into your system??

quote:

by Bee>: congrats & a great story 08dad, but seems more related to "playing up"


by jbb: No, its more related to playing with your grade in his case rather than based on the crazy new birthdate cutoffs.

if they "PLAYED UP" as a group and did not get that exposure in 15U venues -
then it's ALL about "playing up"

sounds like more marketing

Bee- Let me go back to the caveat that I am referring to elite summer programs and not sparse areas. Sight unseen, there is no way your 15 year old son could play on our junior team. He would not be good enough. Sorry.

BTW-I can name you many kids who tried to "play up" a couple grades. Very little was expected from them because of the age disparity, thus, a built in excuse for mediocrity. When they had to play with their own age (grade), they had a difficult time because of high expectations.

It's much better to play on a very talented younger team who happens to play against older teams. It's also better from a social aspect. 15's are not on the same level of maturity as 17's and 18's and I've found from lots of experience it's usually not an optimum mix.

Bottom line- My idea is to expand the development of players. Marketing ploy? What does my idea have to do with marketing? I'm trying to find a solution to help the best kids get better.

quote:

by ncball: I'm trying to find a solution to help the best kids get better

btw, kudos on that

soo, if your current structure is working, why would it be necessary for other pgms to change?

quote:

by ncball: sight unseen, there is no way your 15 year old son could play on our junior team. He would not be good enough. Sorry.

lol - thanks, but I don't remember asking ... He played for Midland & Area Code

are your player fees similar to theirs??


btw, just how do ya evaluate the "sight unseen" player??

Bee- Good for you. Just keep doing what you are doing. You've got the answer for you and that's great.

ncball,
quick to promote your elite program
quick to acknowledge "customer testimonials"
quick to evaluate crosscountry talent "sight unseen"

slow to respond to fees inquiry

sup??

Bee- Because it's not appropriate to ask or answer. I can assure you that we are not close to being on the high end. Good for you that you have a place where a guy spends lots of money on his program. I will also tell you that a good percentage of kids are on a scholarship in our program. Trust me, you're barking up the wrong tree with this one.

Finally, I didn't promote my program- others did. Sight unseen 99% of 15's couldn't make our junior program. Over 90% of those kids get scholarships. Good for your son if he would be the 1%.

quote:

by ncball: Bee - Because it's not appropriate to ask or answer.

gee, after your "unseen" evaluation of my son it seemed an appropriate inquiry

If a program is Free to the player and his parent's.
And the player receives Airline tickets, room and board, Food money. Ect.
Is he not being Payed to play baseball??
Is the Player still an Amatuer??
EH

Bee- Good luck to you. You are in a very good program.

travel, room & board, uni, & necessary equipment may be provided

other - spending money (pocket $$) may NOT be provided - must be EARNED
(not for playing, but could be grounds-keeping, maintenence, etc - it must be "real work" and reasonable not extreme pay)

I as a parent would be very careful with that if player want's to play College ball.

I understand both views,
Playing up offer's great competition.
Playing at grade level make's it easier for the Scout's and Recruitors.

They need to change the Start Date for Primary schools to Sept. For everybody in the Country.
Cali's cutoff date is in Dec.
Meaning you have 16 year old's starting there Senior year in HS.
EH

quote:

by EH: (re amateur status) I as a parent would be very careful with that if player want's to play College ball.

trust me, the above situation is NOT anywhere near being a gray area.

an amateur player can even win/be paid prize $$ for playing -
NOT TO EXCEED their actual expenses for that event(ncaa rule)

so if his actual expenses are covered as above, that amount could NEVER EXCEED the
"ncaa actual expense threshhold rule" .. even if everyone flew 1rst class & stayed at the Raddisson .. because that is their actual expense


but it seems like good leverage to make your kid get a job

quote:

but it seems like good leverage to make your kid get a job

Yes, why make it easy for them?? LOL
Easier said then done.
I'm never going to be able to retire.
EH

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
congrats & a great story 08dad, but seems more related to "playing up"

No, its more related to playing with your grade in his case rather than based on the crazy new birthdate cutoffs.

JBB has hit it right on the head - what I was trying to say was that in 08Son's case he was playing with the group of players where coaches expected to find him. No one cares about his birthdate - only his graduation date - and by playing with other rising seniors, he was where he was supposed to be.

I think two things are getting a little mixed up here between how the team is formed - and what events/other teams they play. If the team is formed by grade, that puts people "into the right group" based upon what coaches expect to see. Then what events the team plays - that is a function of building the right schedule for that group of players. A rising senior team might play in everything from a 19U to a 17U event - based upon what is right for that team.

And in my opinion, travel baseball is is about playing good competition, in good venues and raising the level of your game - not about winning an event and taking home a medal to be thrown in a drawer. But that is probably another thread.

08