High School Long Toss Question to Ponder

I would have a hard time arguing against Long-toss... I have seen so much great anecdotal results.

Sounds like a valid question to me. I think what raider is asking is if you long toss in November, then don't do it again till March, did it do you any good? Or do you need to do it right up till the time you start playing? I think long toss is great, but I'm not sure either if the benefits would carry over that long. Anyone know?

bballman - you have it right - thats the question im asking. im a huge longtoss man and fan. we have a good longtoss program. we are going to longtoss daily when we start for real in november. the question i'm asking is - does it do any good to do the fall longtoss for the basketball players in september when they arent going to pick up a baseball again until march? everybody else is going to start our throwing program in november anyway.

IMO I think it does help but there will be a loss in what they gain. I think it comes down to each individual player but overall I think they will retain some gains.

I can't exactly back up what I'm saying through longtoss because I've never really measured it. But I'm basing it sort of on what happens in the weightroom.

You got a kid who starts out at 175 lbs in the benchpress as a max. He works to increase it to 225 lbs and then takes a couple of months off for another sport. When he starts back he probably won't max at 225 lbs but somewhere close to it but nowhere near the 175 lbs he originally started at.

So one of your kids starts the long toss program at 150 feet and improves to 200 feet (I'm just throwing numbers out by the way) and then goes to basketball. When he starts your preseason I doubt he will be at 200 feet but somewhere close. Probably a terrible example but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Do you think this could be something you measure this season and let us know? After typing all this I know I'm curious.

I would agree with coach but don't really know for sure. I would email Jaeger Sports and ask them. Try Jim Vatcher at jim@jaegersports.com

Let us know what he says.

thanks for your input. i dont know either. thats why i am asking. our kids put alot of hours into baseball which is necessary but they all play other sports and i dont want them to put in nonbeneficial time. i dont want to do things just to be doing them if its not going to payoff. im a big weightroom/longtoss coach. i think the weightroom is beneficial anytime but not so sure about longtoss if you are going to have a big layoff before you throw again. just wondering.

Raiderbb,

“we have always done a 6 week long toss program during the fall”

This is where the problem starts by ending this necessary underload ballistic part of a baseball players training. For every day of detraining it takes a day and a half to return to the fitness levels from where you left off!

“i'm just wondering if there is actually any benefits from it”

There is motor skill and proprioceptive timing learning happening but little functional strength is gained by projecting a 5.5 oz. object that you will loose anyway if the activity is stopped for more than 4 weeks where all of your fitness levels have returned to where they were.

“we long toss for 6 weeks in September and october. of course the football players cant participate”

This is the wrong way to train a baseball player whom is also a football player.
These football players should be throwing 3 to 7 times a week all year and the basketball players whom are baseball players should be working on shooting skills during baseball season. Critical motor skills like batting, throwing, shooting, dribbling, kicking and more can be fitted in very comfortably if done correctly. If you are going to play two sports then you should make the commitment to hone all those skills year round.
Specialized area training does not take that long to perform.

“is the 6 weeks they throw during the fall worth anything if they are going to basketball and wont be baseballers again until march?”
“the basketballers that threw during sept/oct wont touch a baseball again until march. is the fall longtoss worth the time.”

If done this way absolutely not

“we are going to lift weights starting in September but is the long toss beneficial at all?”

Only if performed correctly and not stopped. Learning to throw ballisticly is a major part of the continuing training process and should be done in combination with your overload interval training always. Throwing a baseball maximally while not making you much stronger is the perfect underload training device to make you as fast as you can get by working your fast twitch muscle groups for more fast twitch recruitment and neural timing improvements and you don’t even have to throw long, just maximally specific to your positions throws.

“our kids spend alot of baseball hours as it is. is extra time in the fall worth it?”

The fall and winter should be for going into deep training regression to where you
would not be able to perform in a game well but who does that? These kids are always being told to get out and do this and that camp or show case or play games so they can never train correctly!!

“we've always done it. but are we just doing it for the sake of doing it?”

Only if you stop it and detrain.

“is starting our throwing program in November sufficient?”

This is a good approach for the biologically 16 and below because all the growth plates have not solidified in the Elbows. The biologically 16 and up have all of their growth plates solidified in their Elbows and now can with stand higher training levels and types of training. The Biologically aged 19 and above have all of their growth plates in their Hands and Shoulders completely solidified and can now train year round even during times of competition. Coaches training this age group of kids need to learn this and pay closer attention to the differences in biological age that can be up to 5 years between late and early maturers especially Pitchers. Since the early biological maturers are always advancing first, most teams are made up of early maturers who may be biologically 19 at 17 or 18 chronological years old and can actually train year round at these stages.

“i dont know. just looking for opinions.”

How do you perform your long toss routine? Using what mechanics?

Raiderbb, long-toss most definitely works. I have written a lot on this subject and you can search my previous comments on this subject. In essence, IMHO, long-toss contributes to the following:

1) Arm Speed
2) Consistent arm slot
3) Arm Health

Do it year-round, and follow the Jaeger method.

Well Raider if Yardbird gets on here and says that you are doing it wrong then I say keep up what you are doing. It must be the right way.

Also, I agree with Bum completely. I guess that makes us wrong but I'm sure he and I can get over it.

1. i know longtoss works. ive been doing this a longtime, been successfull, and spend alot of offseason hours studying this stuff. thats not what im asking. im asking when.
2. yardbird - the "technique" we use longtossing varys by the distance we are throwing from. we use a combination of things from dennis johnson at vandy and fred corral - 2 of the most highly respected pitching coaches in the country. i also look at steven ellis stuff. its a an educated program. ive also been looking at alan jaeger's program which follows alot of the same principles.

Steve, really good to see you posting. I think the benefit may be in the team building and program cohesiveness that your doing it at that point instills. Providing an expectation of A) Service to their squad and B) Continuing athletic dedication to off season improvement can make the difference between perennial "Also-ran" or perennial "District Leader". Could you look for opportunities to give it a different look from time to time? You bet. You've mentioned some imo solid names where you develop your approach and I have seen you on forums for years so I know your research efforts. I also think the players will improve because of it..I also don't think it would hurt to make them aware that its ok by you if they continue when they can't be together as a team to use the facilities and their own imagination to keep doing it.

RaiderBB,

“yardbird - the "technique" we use longtossing varys by the distance we are throwing from.”

Could you explain this so that the HS players or parents that visit here can emulate it?
Do you use classic crow-step mechanics or step behind early over rotational or the pogo hop and the pull down method long after release like Jaeger teaches?

“we use a combination of things from dennis johnson at vandy and fred corral “

This does not tell us anything since there is no reference to their detailed materials.

“ive also been looking at alan jaeger's program which follows alot of the same principles.”

This would tell us you are using high parabolic arc long toss for your maximal throws?

Coach2709,

“Also, I agree with Bum completely. I guess that makes us wrong but I'm sure he and I can get over it.”

Why add in Bum into your unnesesary little tirade? I agree with everything Bum said! accept the Jaeger endorsement and I did not comment about Jaeger, you need to speak for yourself. Misrepresenting what I said then saying Bum was involved, when he has never commented negatively about what I put forth ever, shows your inability to comprehend what was actually said, in the future you might just skip my posts as to not upset you every time I post simple exercise physiological tenets.

I believe Long toss for infielders and outfielders is very beneficial if performed correctly. While long toss is beneficial to pitchers I don’t believe it is as beneficial as throwing off the bump to a target (but it is fun) for fast twitch recruitment because it is an entirely different mechanic than traditional pitching where you come to a complete stop deleting any forward gains from the legs, before you start the ball forward. Long toss actually puts you closer to where you should be, taller and more late rotation than traditional pitching.

Jdfromfla,

“to use the facilities and their own imagination to keep doing it.”

You are spot on here! This is critical for multiple sport athletes and is often neglected by all or nothing coaches who are mad about two sport athletes and will not let them participate at all while the other sport is in season, a big mistake.

jdfromfla,
i agree on the team building, year long dedication to the program. even if we dont longtoss during the fall(havent decided) we still will be in the weightroom as a team, fundraising, etc. we stay together as a team during the summer. we play as our school team - we dont go our sepreate ways to travel teams. we have some kids that play that as well but the school team is top priority. they play on other teams when we are not playing. the only time we arent doing something is last of july and most of august. we will start our fall weight program the last week of august. i agree with you 100%.
yardbird,
just about all our kids play more than one sport. most 3. the headcoaches encourage it here. when we longtoss during the fall the football coach always lets the footballers throw before practice. the basketball coach lets our basketballers longtoss and throw bullpens during basketball season. they cant follow our schedule because of basketball schedule but they are throwing a modified schedule. we dont have those "all or nothing" coaches here. we are fortunate there. in my original post when i said we dont have the footballers in the fall and basketballers during the winter. thats not totally true. they are still throwing just not at the same time or the same amounts. we dont have them but we do.
the origianl question is still simply do we gain anything substantial by throwing those 6 weeks during the fall, shutting down 3 weeks because of tennessees required dead period at the start of basketball, and then starting for real the 3rd week of november leading to bullpens in 1st week of jan.? i would tend to say yes but im not sure.

raider, I can't answer that question for you, because Bum, Jr. has always long-tossed year round, without ever shutting down (except once last year on coaches advise and he felt he went backward). He's now hitting 91, cruising 88-89, and is a sub-6ft lefty. I attribute his velocity to a variety of things, including excellent physical training and mechanics, but to a huge degree the benefits derived from long-toss: Arm speed, a consistent arm slot, and the maximization of the kinetic chain.

Throwing a baseball a great distance requires proper mechanics, and the repetitive throwing "locks in" the throwing motion. Once the motion is locked in, the kinetic chain becomes explosive.. the ball is just the last thing that receives energy transferred from the legs, to the core, to the shoulder, to the arm, to the wrist, to the hand.. and to the ball.

I won't be writing any books on this subject, but I can tell you this: No one, and I mean no one, in the Pacific Northwest has long-tossed any more than my son since the age of 11. Year-round, in the dead of Winter or the heat of Summer, he's always done it, and it has paid off.

Your question, would your players receive any benefit if they long-tossed in the Fall, shut down some weeks, and then took it up again in November.. I'd say the benefit would be there but negligible. Coming back again from the shutdown period is tough. If you do shut down, I'd say skip the Fall long-toss program and instead do it November. But the overall gain compared to doing it year-round would be less.

I'm also a guy that encourages players to play other sports. I also believe that playing other sports help build all muscles which will help baseball. So while they might not be long tossing like baseball only players they are still "working the muscles" - just in a different way. Obviously the ones who long toss will benefit much more than those playing other sports I still believe that playing other sports help when it comes to baseball.

Since you mentioned that they do get some work in during the other seasons I believe you are in about as good a position as can be expected. While it would be more beneficial to long toss all year (like Bum JR) I think your players are still benefitting from what they are doing. They won't benefit as much but I think it helps them get caught up quickly.

It's great that you ask these questions because all coaches have to keep up to date on what's going on in baseball. You might get a better answer from Jon Doyle on the weightlifting board too.

bum and coach2709,
thanks for your responses. ive been looking here daily for about 7 years now and have always respected your responses to peoples questions.
the reality is our kids are going to play multiple sports. we have about 650 and are fairly successful in the 3 major sports. if our kids didnt play multiple sports we would struggle in everything.
the 3 week shutdown is mandatory per the state. at the beginning of football, basketball and baseball there is a 3 week dead period for all other sports. i dont have a problem with that at all. make sure everybody that wants to play that sport plays instead of being influenced by workouts for other sports.
after much research and question asking ive decided that during the fall we are going to lift 2 days a week for the entire 10 week period and throw 2 days a week for the last 6 weeks of the fall period. the throwing is not going to be a structured program per say. we will start that when we come back in mid november.
thanks for your input.
im working on our offseason workouts right now. when i finish i will update them on our website. ive not updated it since 2006 - the changes arent major but we do change a little bit every year after going to clinics, etc. i'll let you know when i do this and will ask for critique.
thanks alot