This thread has been very interesting read. I feel CD provides wonderful insights into our thinking of our importance, as parents. I also think CD provides a very good look at the reality of things as contrasted with parental rationalizing.
Perhaps the best illustration of why I disagree with EC, Doughnutman, GingerBread Man and some others relates to the transition our son made from DIII baseball to Milb.
In DIII, the only real comparison with playing Milb was the field. For the game and players, there really was no comparison. One day he is facing 80-83mph, the next he is facing 95mph. Breaking balls are better, they are thrown in any count. The entire game was faster, played with better skill and by much better players, than anything he ever experienced at the DIII level.
On day one of his Milb career, was he behind. Of course.
How long did it last? Perhaps 2-3 weeks. Within that time, with good coaching, by doing extra work before and after games, as he started to get reps in games, by playing every day, he closed the gap. The contrast that was present in June, when he was drafted, was gone by August.
As with CD, I think we as adults and parents don't give these players enough credit. We try and find reasons some succeed and others don't. We try to give them "advantages" that, in reality, are nothing but very short term.
When all of this equalizes in terms of the field, reps, size, and strength, travel vs not, the player with talent, mental desire, toughness, love of the game and competition will equalize whatever "disadvantage" they might have had at the start line.
What a great post.
Collectively speaking, players benefit from playing with better competition. Whether that means a bigger field or bigger and better players, it is all the same. I do not agree that you can just roadblock your kid for years and years and then when they play on a bigger field that it only takes a few weaks to catch up. Thats a load of horse manure in my opinion. Its about raising the bar overall in the population. Todays baseball players in general are better, more talented and conditioned than they were twenty years ago. This is due to the growth of travel ball and better competition. Baseball, as a school is something that takes years to master every aspect. There are so many situations and scenerios that no player could just magically pick up on them all in a few weeks.
I was looking at the roster for the team USA baseball 14u. The average height for these players at this age is 5'10" and 165 lbs. 75% of the roster are "old" meaning that they are in 9th grade (early in the year birthdays). They are looking for players that are skeletally more mature and have greater muscle mass. This equates directly into an added athletic advantage over their peers. Our team played against one of the kids who made that team. We play in a competetive travel league that plays on larger bases. I am positive that the playing on the bigger fields over the past couple years had a direct relation to him making that team. He is more advanced and has been around a lot of better competition.
If bigger fields really do not add much to a players early development, why not just do away with them? Could it be that the reason America is so good at baseball is because we have raised the bar with increasing the level of competition at the youth level? I guarentee it!
I was looking at the roster for the team USA baseball 14u. The average height for these players at this age is 5'10" and 165 lbs. 75% of the roster are "old" meaning that they are in 9th grade (early in the year birthdays). They are looking for players that are skeletally more mature and have greater muscle mass. This equates directly into an added athletic advantage over their peers. Our team played against one of the kids who made that team. We play in a competetive travel league that plays on larger bases. I am positive that the playing on the bigger fields over the past couple years had a direct relation to him making that team. He is more advanced and has been around a lot of better competition.
If bigger fields really do not add much to a players early development, why not just do away with them? Could it be that the reason America is so good at baseball is because we have raised the bar with increasing the level of competition at the youth level? I guarentee it!
quote:Thats a load of horse manure in my opinion.
Wow, our son plays 4 years of DIII baseball, gets drafted, does tons of work, I mean tons, gets himself to the point where he has the 2nd most hits in the entire organization and I am pushing manure?
Go figure.
Well, if you are right, would that not mean the Japanese are playing the best baseball in the world? They are known for their devotion to fundamentals, to playing and practicing in ways that most in the US feel is amazing, and they do it at every level.
On the other hand, if you are right, why are so many MLB teams focusing on Latin players? Heck, those kids don't have fields, they don't have bats, they don't have balls, they wouldn't know a closed based from an open, they would not know travel from rec, they wouldn't know big field vs no field.
But MLB loves them and they are signing them at ages 16-18 in numbers that are creating some resentment in this country.
Why is MLB doing that when few if any of those kids would even have a clue what we are talking about in this thread?
Give our kids, including yours, some credit in their ability to adjust, and adjust quickly. Maybe he is better than you think. Maybe mine was too.
Maybe that 16 year old Latin who never played day of organized baseball is also.
Sorry, but I continue to believe the readiness comes from talent, from hard work, from the ability to make adjustments, from mental toughness, and from good coaching.
No manure being pushed here. I am sorry you seem to equate it to what I posted about our son.
infielddad, both of your last posts make fantastic points.
Please let me add; this is why the "tools" are measured. Can a kid, run faster, throw harder and does he have better hands than those around him???
Answer yes to those questions and even with basic baseball background many teams will teach the rest, because the players WILL learn and ajust.
In High School the best athletes can dominate or adjust even quicker.
Please let me add; this is why the "tools" are measured. Can a kid, run faster, throw harder and does he have better hands than those around him???
Answer yes to those questions and even with basic baseball background many teams will teach the rest, because the players WILL learn and ajust.
In High School the best athletes can dominate or adjust even quicker.
quote:On the other hand, if you are right, why are so many MLB teams focusing on Latin players? Heck, those kids don't have fields, they don't have bats, they don't have balls, they wouldn't know a closed based from an open, they would not know travel from rec, they wouldn't know big field vs no field.
I know this was true years ago. It certainly isn't the case today.
quote:On the other hand, if you are right, why are so many MLB teams focusing on Latin players? Heck, those kids don't have fields, they don't have bats, they don't have balls, they wouldn't know a closed based from an open, they would not know travel from rec, they wouldn't know big field vs no field.
But MLB loves them and they are signing them at ages 16-18 in numbers that are creating some resentment in this country.
Why is MLB doing that when few if any of those kids would even have a clue what we are talking about in this thread?
Excellent point. How do those poor disadvantaged kids ever manage to develop their skills properly? How can they possibly advance without being on a competitive travel team?
" American teams do not need to go through the same “red tape” to sign Latin American players that they do to sign players from Japan. Japanese players are under contracts from their teams in Japan and can be kept in Japan until free agency. American-born players also have to wait until free agency before they can decide on whether or not to go to Japan or sign with another team. Latin American players, however, are not under the same contractual constraints. Major League Baseball and Japanese leagues have players signed to multiyear contracts for large amounts of money, and these contracts are controlled by law. This is not always the case in Latin America, where contracts do not always exist, are not always enforced, and large amounts of money come in from Major League teams to pay for the development of players in Latin America.
This approach has come under fire in recent years.[32] The cheaper cost of talent has convinced Major League teams to turn much of their resources to Latin America. Latin American players have filled minor league rosters at lower costs since major league teams did not need to pay them large signing bonuses or go through the draft to get them. Big League teams have tended to just scout them and sign them, and at lower rates than most American born players because of the lack of agents and the lack of wealth of Latin American nations. Baseball has begun to invest heavily in this region, creating a “player pipeline” to the United States.[33] Major League teams have been building facilities and running academies in Latin America in order to bring baseball to those players and then sign them when they are ready. This accounts for their rise, and further explains reasons why African-Americans have left baseball. Latin Americans rose in baseball for the same reasons African-Americans did when they had the Negro Leagues. However, a change is occurring as baseball has recognized this as a problem. "
Seems these disadvantaged players have gotten an advantage or two.
This approach has come under fire in recent years.[32] The cheaper cost of talent has convinced Major League teams to turn much of their resources to Latin America. Latin American players have filled minor league rosters at lower costs since major league teams did not need to pay them large signing bonuses or go through the draft to get them. Big League teams have tended to just scout them and sign them, and at lower rates than most American born players because of the lack of agents and the lack of wealth of Latin American nations. Baseball has begun to invest heavily in this region, creating a “player pipeline” to the United States.[33] Major League teams have been building facilities and running academies in Latin America in order to bring baseball to those players and then sign them when they are ready. This accounts for their rise, and further explains reasons why African-Americans have left baseball. Latin Americans rose in baseball for the same reasons African-Americans did when they had the Negro Leagues. However, a change is occurring as baseball has recognized this as a problem. "
Seems these disadvantaged players have gotten an advantage or two.
Another interesting aspect of the disadvantaged Latin question.
Steroid policy hits Latin Americans
By Chris Jenkins, USA TODAY
The majority of baseball players suspended for using illegal performance-enhancing drugs this year are natives of Spanish-speaking nations or Puerto Rico, spurring questions about steroid use in Latin America and leading some teams to address the issue in overseas player development academies. Three of the five major league players and 24 of the 47 minor league players suspended this season were born in the nations of Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Mexico or Cuba or in the U.S. commonwealth of Puerto Rico. (Related item: Chart of positive tests)
Twins pitcher Juan Rincon, who is from Venezuela, said he was 'devastated' after testing positive under MLB's drug policy.
By Tom Olmscheid, AP
The rate of positive tests is higher than the overall percentage of Latin American players — 25.7% of opening-day rosters in the major leagues and 38.6% of players signed to minor league contracts this season.
Sal Artiaga, the Philadelphia Phillies director of Latin American operations, worries the figures have led people to conclude steroid use is rampant in Latin America.
"Now everybody's labeled Latinos, that all Latinos are on the stuff," Artiaga says. "And that upsets me."
Artiaga, who supervised presentations on steroid use during visits to the Phillies' player development academies in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela last week, doesn't believe steroids are an epidemic in those countries. But he says increased education efforts are needed to overcome cultural factors at work in the region.
Drugs aren't as tightly controlled in Latin American countries as they are in the USA, and steroids often are available without a prescription, so there isn't as strong a stigma against steroid use. Unethical talent scouts might be encouraging steroid use. And Spanish-speaking players might have trouble determining whether an over-the-counter diet supplement could cause a positive test.
Are language barriers and cultural factors putting Latin American players at a disadvantage?
"I think people should take that into consideration," says Lino Diaz, the Cleveland Indians assistant director of player development and Latin American operations. "There's a level of, let's call it non-awareness, or a lack of an education. Before we start judging or blaming them for things, we need to find out what's going on."
This week, the Boston Herald quoted Boston Red Sox designated hitter David Ortiz, a native of the Dominican Republic, as saying, "Think about a guy who can't really talk or read. I'm not making excuses for those guys. But I think they would prefer if someone talked to them (in Spanish) ... You might think everyone's got the message, but they don't."
In an e-mailed statement, Rob Manfred, Major League Baseball's executive vice president of labor relations, acknowledged that "players who live outside the United States may face an additional challenge in avoiding banned substances because some countries are not as strict (as) the United States in regulating performance-enhancing substances."
Major League Baseball has produced a Spanish-language version of a video designed to educate players on its drug policies. Greg Bouris, a spokesman for the MLB Players Association, says union chief Don Fehr brings former player Bobby Bonilla, who is fluent in Spanish, to translate when Fehr speaks to players at spring training.
At the team level, the Phillies and the Cleveland Indians recently held steroid seminars at their Latin American player development academies, an addition to the teams' broad cultural-assimilation programs designed to prepare players for life in the USA.
Artiaga says the Phillies showed the MLB film to approximately 80 players at academies in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, then had a trainer available to answer questions. Artiaga says the sessions were "well received."
Diaz says the Indians brought in a doctor to give a 45-minute presentation to about 50 players at their academy in the Dominican Republic. Diaz was pleased that players asked specific questions about whether the products they take are legal.
Such questions could indicate that Latin American players are becoming more aware of the potential health risks of steroid use and the controversy swirling in the major leagues.
Artiaga says Latin American players are "very vitamin-oriented" but they might not see a moral boundary between Vitamin C tablets and steroids.
"We live in a regulated society," Artiaga says. "You and I grew up and live it, so we accept it. These regulations do not apply as much in other countries."
But Diaz says players took notice when two Dominican players, Lino Ortiz and William Felix, died in 2001. The players are believed to have used steroids and other medicines intended for use in farm animals. A New York-based advocacy group, Hispanics Across America, has used their deaths to urge MLB to do more to get steroids out of the game in Latin America.
Then there are the buscones, unsanctioned talent scouts who purport to help players train and sign a contract. Says Diaz: "He tells you, 'Hey, take these vitamins.' He's probably not going to ask, 'Hey, what's in those vitamins?' I think we need to be sensitive to that."
The Indians administer blood tests to prospects to determine whether they have hepatitis and other diseases before signing them. Baseball has started random testing in the Dominican Summer League, and Diaz says the next logical step might be to drug-test players before teams sign them.
Artiaga says none of this is indicative of a Latin American steroid problem.
"Here, the impression that you get is like it's an epidemic," he says. "I did not get any sense of that."
Breakdown of positive tests by pla
Steroid policy hits Latin Americans
By Chris Jenkins, USA TODAY
The majority of baseball players suspended for using illegal performance-enhancing drugs this year are natives of Spanish-speaking nations or Puerto Rico, spurring questions about steroid use in Latin America and leading some teams to address the issue in overseas player development academies. Three of the five major league players and 24 of the 47 minor league players suspended this season were born in the nations of Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Mexico or Cuba or in the U.S. commonwealth of Puerto Rico. (Related item: Chart of positive tests)
Twins pitcher Juan Rincon, who is from Venezuela, said he was 'devastated' after testing positive under MLB's drug policy.
By Tom Olmscheid, AP
The rate of positive tests is higher than the overall percentage of Latin American players — 25.7% of opening-day rosters in the major leagues and 38.6% of players signed to minor league contracts this season.
Sal Artiaga, the Philadelphia Phillies director of Latin American operations, worries the figures have led people to conclude steroid use is rampant in Latin America.
"Now everybody's labeled Latinos, that all Latinos are on the stuff," Artiaga says. "And that upsets me."
Artiaga, who supervised presentations on steroid use during visits to the Phillies' player development academies in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela last week, doesn't believe steroids are an epidemic in those countries. But he says increased education efforts are needed to overcome cultural factors at work in the region.
Drugs aren't as tightly controlled in Latin American countries as they are in the USA, and steroids often are available without a prescription, so there isn't as strong a stigma against steroid use. Unethical talent scouts might be encouraging steroid use. And Spanish-speaking players might have trouble determining whether an over-the-counter diet supplement could cause a positive test.
Are language barriers and cultural factors putting Latin American players at a disadvantage?
"I think people should take that into consideration," says Lino Diaz, the Cleveland Indians assistant director of player development and Latin American operations. "There's a level of, let's call it non-awareness, or a lack of an education. Before we start judging or blaming them for things, we need to find out what's going on."
This week, the Boston Herald quoted Boston Red Sox designated hitter David Ortiz, a native of the Dominican Republic, as saying, "Think about a guy who can't really talk or read. I'm not making excuses for those guys. But I think they would prefer if someone talked to them (in Spanish) ... You might think everyone's got the message, but they don't."
In an e-mailed statement, Rob Manfred, Major League Baseball's executive vice president of labor relations, acknowledged that "players who live outside the United States may face an additional challenge in avoiding banned substances because some countries are not as strict (as) the United States in regulating performance-enhancing substances."
Major League Baseball has produced a Spanish-language version of a video designed to educate players on its drug policies. Greg Bouris, a spokesman for the MLB Players Association, says union chief Don Fehr brings former player Bobby Bonilla, who is fluent in Spanish, to translate when Fehr speaks to players at spring training.
At the team level, the Phillies and the Cleveland Indians recently held steroid seminars at their Latin American player development academies, an addition to the teams' broad cultural-assimilation programs designed to prepare players for life in the USA.
Artiaga says the Phillies showed the MLB film to approximately 80 players at academies in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, then had a trainer available to answer questions. Artiaga says the sessions were "well received."
Diaz says the Indians brought in a doctor to give a 45-minute presentation to about 50 players at their academy in the Dominican Republic. Diaz was pleased that players asked specific questions about whether the products they take are legal.
Such questions could indicate that Latin American players are becoming more aware of the potential health risks of steroid use and the controversy swirling in the major leagues.
Artiaga says Latin American players are "very vitamin-oriented" but they might not see a moral boundary between Vitamin C tablets and steroids.
"We live in a regulated society," Artiaga says. "You and I grew up and live it, so we accept it. These regulations do not apply as much in other countries."
But Diaz says players took notice when two Dominican players, Lino Ortiz and William Felix, died in 2001. The players are believed to have used steroids and other medicines intended for use in farm animals. A New York-based advocacy group, Hispanics Across America, has used their deaths to urge MLB to do more to get steroids out of the game in Latin America.
Then there are the buscones, unsanctioned talent scouts who purport to help players train and sign a contract. Says Diaz: "He tells you, 'Hey, take these vitamins.' He's probably not going to ask, 'Hey, what's in those vitamins?' I think we need to be sensitive to that."
The Indians administer blood tests to prospects to determine whether they have hepatitis and other diseases before signing them. Baseball has started random testing in the Dominican Summer League, and Diaz says the next logical step might be to drug-test players before teams sign them.
Artiaga says none of this is indicative of a Latin American steroid problem.
"Here, the impression that you get is like it's an epidemic," he says. "I did not get any sense of that."
Breakdown of positive tests by pla
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Could it be that the reason America is so good at baseball is because we have raised the bar with increasing the level of competition at the youth level? I guarentee it!
Guarantee what? GBM you (and some others) continue to amuse me with your lack of perspective. We (the USA) are good at baseball because a good percentage of our kids play it. It is the same with football, basketball, etc. When your son reaches HS you will see it for yourself. The athletes play and the marginal kids don’t, period. Of the Varsity starting 9 at my son’s HS 7 played no travel ball at all, all league players. They were generally the top kids in their baseball league, football league, basketball league, whatever league. They are athletes, which played multiple sports and have gifts that no amount of open field, travel ball, whatever ball will change. Once they hit puberty and got some good coaching they left all of the other kids in the dust. No amount or travel ball, open field, closed field, whatever field, and over obsessive parenting will change. My advice continues to be: play multiple sports in your community, enjoy your neighbors and watching their kids play, relax. Get them some individual coaching if they need it, but stop the obsession. You are wasting you and your family’s precious time together, and missing out on something that cannot be replaced by traveling around the country searching for the unattainable.
BOF
You are speaking of what we are planning here in the Northeast---A Northeast Circuit to play on college campuses and in area tournaments for all the Northeast schools to see the talent that is in their own backyard--think about it a minute--the majority of the ball players end up playing in their home region even after all the out of region trips
You are speaking of what we are planning here in the Northeast---A Northeast Circuit to play on college campuses and in area tournaments for all the Northeast schools to see the talent that is in their own backyard--think about it a minute--the majority of the ball players end up playing in their home region even after all the out of region trips
quote:the majority of the ball players end up playing in their home region even after all the out of region trips
That sounds real exciting.
13U and 14U is not preteen ball. The debate is about preteen ball on less than full size fields.quote:You cannot convince me that playing 13U in travel, seeing 80+ fastballs, good off-speed pitches, and good defense does not better prepare you for making the HS team than playing in a league with 60'ish fastballs, loopy breaking pitches, and average defense.
I think there needs to be some age distinction of what you are talking about. 9-11 may not be that big of a deal, but when you get to 12-14, playing challenging competition should be your focus.
I hope the several posters who are making a big issue of playing travel ball at 13U and 14U are not skweing the poll by voting yes. The debate is about the relevance and importance of open bases versus closed bases in preteen baseball on less than full size fields.
RJM,
Since you didn't have a vote for a resounding NO, I just voted no.
To try and put this discussion into some framework, this is a description of a field in the Dominican Republic that I cut and pasted from an article written on 9/27.
"Out on Nolasco's ball field, a spread of dirt spotted by stones and wild-grass patches, 30 kids ages 6 to 14 practiced hitting and throwing one day last week under a 100-degree sun. It looks the same as when Villalona was there four years ago: Used tires, logs and concrete chunks serve as bleachers, and a highway roars alongside left field.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...BH.DTL#ixzz0TjhnSeNV
Are those open or closed bases?
Since you didn't have a vote for a resounding NO, I just voted no.
To try and put this discussion into some framework, this is a description of a field in the Dominican Republic that I cut and pasted from an article written on 9/27.
"Out on Nolasco's ball field, a spread of dirt spotted by stones and wild-grass patches, 30 kids ages 6 to 14 practiced hitting and throwing one day last week under a 100-degree sun. It looks the same as when Villalona was there four years ago: Used tires, logs and concrete chunks serve as bleachers, and a highway roars alongside left field.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...BH.DTL#ixzz0TjhnSeNV
Are those open or closed bases?
It may not be exciting. But it's true. It's why I'm evaluating the need to have my son attend the PG event in Florida. There are plenty of places he can be seen by schools from northern North Carolina to New England without going to Florida. Spending the most money doesn't guarantee success in recruiting. Spending money wisely optimizes opportunities.quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:the majority of the ball players end up playing in their home region even after all the out of region trips
That sounds real exciting.
It may be important to making the 13 , 14, 15 year old teams that are the top teams in your area. Then it becomes I should have, would have if I only knew what I didn't really know back then that I know now.
Obviously there are a few exceptions.
Obviously there are a few exceptions.
Kids physical abilities change so much at and after puberty what they do at 12U and under isn't any more important than learning basic fundamentals. I've seen plenty of kids not play travel until 17U, make teams and then play college ball because they had talent.quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
It may be important to making the 13 , 14, 15 year old teams that are the top teams in your area. Then it becomes I should have, would have if I only knew what I didn't really know back then that I know now.
Obviously there are a few exceptions.
If a kid has talent at 13U, but played LL ball until age 12, hes going to make a 13U travel team. As he improves he'll move up in the quality of travel teams interested in him. I've seen it many times.
I have been there several times. Didn't attend showcases. Many of my son's friends did and they were no better off.
Through elite ball I knew my son didn't need to. What we are calling travel ball was very important and some of the best memories he & I have.
My position isn't that you have to travel far but most of the best coaching and serious players play travel ball of some sort. So TR's team will travel locally . That is still travel or showcase teams.
Through elite ball I knew my son didn't need to. What we are calling travel ball was very important and some of the best memories he & I have.
My position isn't that you have to travel far but most of the best coaching and serious players play travel ball of some sort. So TR's team will travel locally . That is still travel or showcase teams.
I advocate whatever is fun or affordable. I have three sons who played as much baseball as possible -- travel and local Little League.
We did not do it to attain opportunities. We did it because we enjoyed it. I would not trade it for anything -- and the competition and coaching were great. They advanced quicker, no doubt. But, in the end -- and has been stated here -- it is talent that matters. And the kids with great early experience but without the talent, quickly fall by the wayside when the growing stops and the best athletes emerge.
We did not do it to attain opportunities. We did it because we enjoyed it. I would not trade it for anything -- and the competition and coaching were great. They advanced quicker, no doubt. But, in the end -- and has been stated here -- it is talent that matters. And the kids with great early experience but without the talent, quickly fall by the wayside when the growing stops and the best athletes emerge.
We also played for fun but my son wanted to play on the local travel team. Call it that Yankee pinstriped uniform or what ever. He wanted to play with the best players at the time as a 9yo. There were 14 players on that team and only 2 played US D1 college ball. None of the guys who didn't play for that team played past HS and only a couple played HS. All of the travel guys played at least HS.
That doesn't prove anything but the serious players crave good teams, good coaching etc. If they can get that without travel that is okay but will those guys continue to love and excel at BB. To me the odds would be worse than those who want to play on the best team.
That doesn't prove anything but the serious players crave good teams, good coaching etc. If they can get that without travel that is okay but will those guys continue to love and excel at BB. To me the odds would be worse than those who want to play on the best team.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Collectively speaking, players benefit from playing with better competition. Whether that means a bigger field or bigger and better players, it is all the same. I do not agree that you can just roadblock your kid for years and years and then when they play on a bigger field that it only takes a few weaks to catch up. Thats a load of horse manure in my opinion.
I brought up a 2010 player earlier in this thread that has played no HS baseball. He played LL and Babe Ruth League. He is a great athlete. This fall he tried out for and made a Southern California Scout League Team. After 5 weeks he of playing, he just recieved a D1 scolarship offer, while 25 other hardworking, baseball only, lifetime travel teamers have not.
Yeah, that under 12 experience sure was a major factor. As was playing in a local rec. league. As was completely skipping HS baseball his first 3 years.
I know this may not sit well, but talent (genetically gifted) trumps hard work and experience. A talented player will pass those with less talent in a very short time. Just to back what infielddad is stating, the multi-sport athletes that do not show up on the baseball field until late, take about 2-3 weeks to pass nearly every other player that has done baseball workouts all fall and been in full baseball practices all winter. There is only one baseball-only athlete on my sons HS team that does not get passed. He happens to be a great athlete that only plays baseball.
Back to the original poster's question, The stuff that happens back in under-12 is so low on the list of importance that it barely matters by the time you hit HS.
quote:I know this may not sit well, but talent (genetically gifted) trumps hard work and experience.
I think it does and generally agree with what you are saying, but lets not go overboard with it. Every once in awhile, there is a player like Bo Jackson who seemingly can step off of a football field and excell on the baseball field. We can probably count those guys on one hand.
If it was purely about athletic ability, then Michael Jordan should have been one of the greatest baseball players of all time. He obviously was not.
Was Ted Williams a great athlete? I don't know but he said he practiced hitting until his hands bled.
So the exception proves the rule ?
I have see lots of kids with 1 tool get drafted and play MiLB for 3 to 5 years before getting cut. What does that prove ?
Play the odds and play for the best team you can afford. There are a lot of talented players who don't play past HS.
The Blue Jays set up a net work to find talent in Austria. A good friend set it up several years ago and he brought their top guys here to play for my son's team. They couldn't make the team. Maybe their lack of development had a bearing on their level of play. Again not proof of anything but these guys were prospects according to the Jays.
I have see lots of kids with 1 tool get drafted and play MiLB for 3 to 5 years before getting cut. What does that prove ?
Play the odds and play for the best team you can afford. There are a lot of talented players who don't play past HS.
The Blue Jays set up a net work to find talent in Austria. A good friend set it up several years ago and he brought their top guys here to play for my son's team. They couldn't make the team. Maybe their lack of development had a bearing on their level of play. Again not proof of anything but these guys were prospects according to the Jays.
Vincent Edward "Bo" Jackson (born November 30, 1962) is an American former multi-sport athlete who played professional football and Major League Baseball simultaneously, and was the first athlete named an All-Star in both sports.
Born in Bessemer, Alabama, Bo Jackson was originally drafted by the New York Yankees but chose to attend Auburn University from 1982 to 1985 instead, where he was an astounding all-around athlete. Jackson batted .401 with 17 home runs and 43 RBIs in 1985, qualified for the 60-yard dash in his freshman and sophomore years, and won the 1985 Heisman Trophy for his abilities as a running back; he was named MVP of both the Sugar Bowl in 1983 and the Liberty Bowl in 1984.
Bo Jackson was drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with the first pick of the 1986 draft, but Jackson opted to play baseball for the Kansas City Royals instead, spending most of the season in the minor leagues before being called up for regular duty in 1987, when he had 22 home runs, 53 RBIs and 10 stolen bases as an outfielder for the Royals. He began to show his true potential in 1989, when he was selected to the American League All-Star team, and was named the game's MVP for his play on both offense and defense. He finished the season by being 4th in the AL in both HRs (32) and RBI (105); in 1990 he raised his batting average as well, but the increasing questions about his football career contributed to a decline in his overall totals.
Following the 1987 baseball season, Jackson decided to again play football (just as a "hobby", he said) and joined the NFL's Los Angeles Raiders, rushing for 554 yards in 81 carries in just seven games. Over the next three seasons, Bo Jackson would rush for 2,228 more yards with 12 touchdowns.
Bo Jackson became a popular figure for his athleticism in multiple sports through the late 1980s and early 1990s. Jackson endorsed Nike and launched a popular ad campaign called "Bo Knows" which envisioned Jackson attempting to take up a litany of other sports, including tennis, golf, auto racing, and even blues music with Bo Diddley.
However, during a Raiders playoff game against the Cincinnati Bengals in 1991, Jackson suffered a serious hip injury which ended his football career and seriously threatened his baseball career. Following surgery and rehabilitation on his injured hip, it was discovered that Jackson had avascular necrosis, which caused deterioration of the cartilage and bone around his left hip. Jackson had an artificial hip implanted in 1992, which caused him to miss the entire 1992 baseball season. Many thought that he might never play professional sports again.
However, Jackson was able to return to the Chicago White Sox in 1993, hitting 16 home runs and 45 RBIs; but while his power remained, he no longer had his trademark speed. During his two seasons with the White Sox, Jackson hit only 13 extra-base hits and had no stolen bases. For the 1994 season, Jackson was sent to the California Angels for one final season before retiring.
In his eight baseball seasons, Jackson had a career average of .250, hit 141 home runs and had 415 RBIs, with a slugging average of .474. In his four seasons in the NFL, Jackson rushed for 2,782 yards and 16 touchdowns with an average yards per carry of 5.4.
Born in Bessemer, Alabama, Bo Jackson was originally drafted by the New York Yankees but chose to attend Auburn University from 1982 to 1985 instead, where he was an astounding all-around athlete. Jackson batted .401 with 17 home runs and 43 RBIs in 1985, qualified for the 60-yard dash in his freshman and sophomore years, and won the 1985 Heisman Trophy for his abilities as a running back; he was named MVP of both the Sugar Bowl in 1983 and the Liberty Bowl in 1984.
Bo Jackson was drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with the first pick of the 1986 draft, but Jackson opted to play baseball for the Kansas City Royals instead, spending most of the season in the minor leagues before being called up for regular duty in 1987, when he had 22 home runs, 53 RBIs and 10 stolen bases as an outfielder for the Royals. He began to show his true potential in 1989, when he was selected to the American League All-Star team, and was named the game's MVP for his play on both offense and defense. He finished the season by being 4th in the AL in both HRs (32) and RBI (105); in 1990 he raised his batting average as well, but the increasing questions about his football career contributed to a decline in his overall totals.
Following the 1987 baseball season, Jackson decided to again play football (just as a "hobby", he said) and joined the NFL's Los Angeles Raiders, rushing for 554 yards in 81 carries in just seven games. Over the next three seasons, Bo Jackson would rush for 2,228 more yards with 12 touchdowns.
Bo Jackson became a popular figure for his athleticism in multiple sports through the late 1980s and early 1990s. Jackson endorsed Nike and launched a popular ad campaign called "Bo Knows" which envisioned Jackson attempting to take up a litany of other sports, including tennis, golf, auto racing, and even blues music with Bo Diddley.
However, during a Raiders playoff game against the Cincinnati Bengals in 1991, Jackson suffered a serious hip injury which ended his football career and seriously threatened his baseball career. Following surgery and rehabilitation on his injured hip, it was discovered that Jackson had avascular necrosis, which caused deterioration of the cartilage and bone around his left hip. Jackson had an artificial hip implanted in 1992, which caused him to miss the entire 1992 baseball season. Many thought that he might never play professional sports again.
However, Jackson was able to return to the Chicago White Sox in 1993, hitting 16 home runs and 45 RBIs; but while his power remained, he no longer had his trademark speed. During his two seasons with the White Sox, Jackson hit only 13 extra-base hits and had no stolen bases. For the 1994 season, Jackson was sent to the California Angels for one final season before retiring.
In his eight baseball seasons, Jackson had a career average of .250, hit 141 home runs and had 415 RBIs, with a slugging average of .474. In his four seasons in the NFL, Jackson rushed for 2,782 yards and 16 touchdowns with an average yards per carry of 5.4.
My son is only 16, so I am nowhere near the point to have all the answers to this debate. I will give one observation of a personal perspective and one heard from a coach of a pretty high level D1 school.
My son played rec ball until he was 12. Level of competition was not great, but we worked on all his fundamentals. He was a very good pitcher even though he was small. At 12, he got into travel. I do not believe playing rec until he was 12 hurt him at all. As a freshman, he was a starting pitcher for the varsity team.
I will say that playing a high level of competition from 12 to 14 helped shape him as a pitcher for HS. He generally pitched against the toughest teams we faced. In games he did not start, he would be brought in in tough situations to "put out the fire". By facing the better competition, he learned how to actually pitch and not just throw. He was also better prepared (in my opinion) mentally to handle the stresses of varsity baseball - as a pitcher.
What I don't know, is whether he would have had the same temperament and mental toughness to do this had he not faced a high level of competition from 12 - 14. However, since this thread is on pre-teen readiness, I can say that not playing travel below age 12 did not hurt him.
Now the other point I will make is this. We went to a college showcase tournament this past summer as a 15 yr. old team. The tournament was at the University of South Carolina. Our coach got talking to one of the assistant coaches of the USC team. He told our coach that he does not even scout or look at 15 yr. old kids. He said that too much can change by the time they are 17. Smaller kids grow, bigger kids don't grow and become average. He said they wait to scout until the kids get a little older. My point is, if scouts and college coaches are not looking at 15 yr. old kids, they certainly don't care what the player did while they were 8-12 years old. If a kid starts playing high school ball at 14 or 15 years old, they would have another 2-3 years of high level play to hone their skills before scouts start seriously looking at them. I think that would be plenty of time to catch up.
So, my vote is NO, you don't have to play competitive travel ball during the preteen years to be successful. As long as some kind of genetic talent for baseball is there.
My son played rec ball until he was 12. Level of competition was not great, but we worked on all his fundamentals. He was a very good pitcher even though he was small. At 12, he got into travel. I do not believe playing rec until he was 12 hurt him at all. As a freshman, he was a starting pitcher for the varsity team.
I will say that playing a high level of competition from 12 to 14 helped shape him as a pitcher for HS. He generally pitched against the toughest teams we faced. In games he did not start, he would be brought in in tough situations to "put out the fire". By facing the better competition, he learned how to actually pitch and not just throw. He was also better prepared (in my opinion) mentally to handle the stresses of varsity baseball - as a pitcher.
What I don't know, is whether he would have had the same temperament and mental toughness to do this had he not faced a high level of competition from 12 - 14. However, since this thread is on pre-teen readiness, I can say that not playing travel below age 12 did not hurt him.
Now the other point I will make is this. We went to a college showcase tournament this past summer as a 15 yr. old team. The tournament was at the University of South Carolina. Our coach got talking to one of the assistant coaches of the USC team. He told our coach that he does not even scout or look at 15 yr. old kids. He said that too much can change by the time they are 17. Smaller kids grow, bigger kids don't grow and become average. He said they wait to scout until the kids get a little older. My point is, if scouts and college coaches are not looking at 15 yr. old kids, they certainly don't care what the player did while they were 8-12 years old. If a kid starts playing high school ball at 14 or 15 years old, they would have another 2-3 years of high level play to hone their skills before scouts start seriously looking at them. I think that would be plenty of time to catch up.
So, my vote is NO, you don't have to play competitive travel ball during the preteen years to be successful. As long as some kind of genetic talent for baseball is there.
TR's team is 18U. There's a huge difference between the importance of playing 12u travel and 18U showcase ball.quote:So TR's team will travel locally . That is still travel or showcase teams.
Very aware of that. My point is that travel isn't the thing that is important. It is the collection of top players playing under top coaches that is important.
I also would vote no to the preteen question but I still think good ball players want to play at the highest level. That is important. It is not just about physical talent.
If the kid has to compete at each level to make a team then you do everything you can to develop your ability.
I also would vote no to the preteen question but I still think good ball players want to play at the highest level. That is important. It is not just about physical talent.
If the kid has to compete at each level to make a team then you do everything you can to develop your ability.
Bobblehead,
Good bio on Bo Jackson. He was and still is the best running back I've ever seen. His Soph. year at Auburn he did things on the field that just weren't human. Shame he didn't get to run out of the I formation until his Sr. year. Yes, I saw Herschel but he didn't block very well and please don't ask him to catch a pass; Herschel had tremendous top end speed but didn't come close to matching Bo's quickness. And yes, they did meet each other one time in Track; Madison Square Gardens 60yd dash....no contest, Bo smoked the field.
Trivia bit...he was not called Bo over the Auburn PA at football games until about 3 games through his Fr year. " Back to recieve the kickoff...Vincent Jackson" was everybody's first sight of him; took a couple games before he got to run the ball from scrimmage. He was scary returning kickoffs; looked like he was shot out of a cannon.
As far as baseball, ask any Georgia fan about the shot he hit in Athens in the first night game at UGA. No one has come close to matching it. As far as his arm, Bo hit the suspended scoreboard in the Superdome throwing a football before the '84 Sugar Bowl a few times in practices and once before the game itself. Ever been to the Superdome? Nailing Harold Reynolds at home was simple. (Yes, the 1984 Sugar Bowl against Michigan following the 1983 season; played January 1, 1984).
Sport that Bo Jackson absolutely sucked at....basketball, by his own admission. Always got a kick watching the Nike "Bo Knows..." ads and seeing him on a baketball court.
Good bio on Bo Jackson. He was and still is the best running back I've ever seen. His Soph. year at Auburn he did things on the field that just weren't human. Shame he didn't get to run out of the I formation until his Sr. year. Yes, I saw Herschel but he didn't block very well and please don't ask him to catch a pass; Herschel had tremendous top end speed but didn't come close to matching Bo's quickness. And yes, they did meet each other one time in Track; Madison Square Gardens 60yd dash....no contest, Bo smoked the field.
Trivia bit...he was not called Bo over the Auburn PA at football games until about 3 games through his Fr year. " Back to recieve the kickoff...Vincent Jackson" was everybody's first sight of him; took a couple games before he got to run the ball from scrimmage. He was scary returning kickoffs; looked like he was shot out of a cannon.
As far as baseball, ask any Georgia fan about the shot he hit in Athens in the first night game at UGA. No one has come close to matching it. As far as his arm, Bo hit the suspended scoreboard in the Superdome throwing a football before the '84 Sugar Bowl a few times in practices and once before the game itself. Ever been to the Superdome? Nailing Harold Reynolds at home was simple. (Yes, the 1984 Sugar Bowl against Michigan following the 1983 season; played January 1, 1984).
Sport that Bo Jackson absolutely sucked at....basketball, by his own admission. Always got a kick watching the Nike "Bo Knows..." ads and seeing him on a baketball court.
I still believe that playing competetive ball prior to going into HS has a great effect on how one does in HS and beyond. As competetive leagues get better and better the bar is raised. Let me make this analogous to a totally different sport.
When I was growing up, there weren't very many skateboard parks around. Few people had 1/4 or 1/2 pipes. The skating we did was on whatever we could find and not get into too much trouble. There weren't very many competetive events and so the people who were good (including myself) didn't drive harder to get better. We were good by the standards of our time. Most didn't get really good until they were like 15-17 years old.
Now fast forward 20 years. Skate parks are in every small town in America including the little burg I live in. I go and watch the little 10-12 year old kids pulling off moves that would have been good enough to go pro back in my day and get a good sponsorship. The difference is that there is more competeion due to more kids skating, better parks to enhance and hone skills etc. Because the bar has been raised, you have to be twice as good as we were in our day to be considered good. This is highly analogous to baseball.
Todays teams at the HS level are way more competetive and better than they were twenty years ago. The bar has been raised in baseball throughout the world. This is due to an influx in players and competetive leagues and as such, the talented kids are getting way better than they would have normally.
When I was growing up, there weren't very many skateboard parks around. Few people had 1/4 or 1/2 pipes. The skating we did was on whatever we could find and not get into too much trouble. There weren't very many competetive events and so the people who were good (including myself) didn't drive harder to get better. We were good by the standards of our time. Most didn't get really good until they were like 15-17 years old.
Now fast forward 20 years. Skate parks are in every small town in America including the little burg I live in. I go and watch the little 10-12 year old kids pulling off moves that would have been good enough to go pro back in my day and get a good sponsorship. The difference is that there is more competeion due to more kids skating, better parks to enhance and hone skills etc. Because the bar has been raised, you have to be twice as good as we were in our day to be considered good. This is highly analogous to baseball.
Todays teams at the HS level are way more competetive and better than they were twenty years ago. The bar has been raised in baseball throughout the world. This is due to an influx in players and competetive leagues and as such, the talented kids are getting way better than they would have normally.
GBM, I would agree playing travel pre HS is a beneficial. The question really is whether it is beneficial or necessary pre-teen. I still don't really think it is. Playing any kind of baseball early and learning how to hit, field and throw properly can be done anywhere at the younger, pre-teen ages.
My only concern would be making the 14U travel team and so on. I use the term travel as meaning a team with top players, top coaches and that cost more than the other teams like rec.
I assume it is hard to make the next level in Roswell GA. Once out of the loop I would think it is very hard to get into the travel teams.
I have seen this many times. Here it is very hard to break into a good team.
If it was just a matter of learning skill sets it may not be important to a few talented players.
I assume it is hard to make the next level in Roswell GA. Once out of the loop I would think it is very hard to get into the travel teams.
I have seen this many times. Here it is very hard to break into a good team.
If it was just a matter of learning skill sets it may not be important to a few talented players.
BHD, I get what you're saying, but around here, there are so many travel teams, it would really not be a problem to get on one. Even a decent one. The very top ones are not easy to get on no matter when you start because they are really recruiting from the whole region. The top East Cobb teams will have kids from all over GA, Alabama, Tennessee, Florida. The older teams have kids from all over the country. But there are tons of high quality teams around here and if you have the talent, you can get on one.
Yes Georgia has a lot of top teams. I would find it hard to believe that a kid could just jump into an EC team as an example. There may be lesser caliber teams that you might be able to work your way into but you have limited your chances and your odds.
We were approached about my son attending a Georgia HS but he was already to graduate with his friends. One of the coach's selling features was his involvement with EC.
If your goal is college or pro you should do all you can to better yourself. The sooner you start the better. The travel teams at the early age levels were only a few hundred dollars a year. Some wouldn't charge those who were financially challenged so I can't see why you wouldn't go the travel route. I could understand it it was thousands of dollars.
The HS in Georgia even put us in touch with a JC in Georgia.
When I watch a pitcher I look for how he does his assignments when the ball is put in play. Untrained pitchers at best have to think about what they do. Polished players react without hesitation. I am always shocked at what I see.
We were approached about my son attending a Georgia HS but he was already to graduate with his friends. One of the coach's selling features was his involvement with EC.
If your goal is college or pro you should do all you can to better yourself. The sooner you start the better. The travel teams at the early age levels were only a few hundred dollars a year. Some wouldn't charge those who were financially challenged so I can't see why you wouldn't go the travel route. I could understand it it was thousands of dollars.
The HS in Georgia even put us in touch with a JC in Georgia.
When I watch a pitcher I look for how he does his assignments when the ball is put in play. Untrained pitchers at best have to think about what they do. Polished players react without hesitation. I am always shocked at what I see.
The thread is about high school readiness. Most players won't play past high school.quote:If your goal is college or pro you should do all you can to better yourself. The sooner you start the better.
I said if.