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27 replies

High School...Pitching Decision goes to....???

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Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
You must pitch 4 innings to qualify for a W. However, the rule book does not speak to games shortened by the slaughter rule. I've always felt you could exercise some "scorekeeper's discretion" in slaughter games.

You don't have to record even one out to qualify for the loss. Whoever is in there when the winning team takes the lead for good gets the L.

When several pitchers are used, it's either the guy who was in there to close the 4th, or the guy who was in at a later time who was the pitcher of record when the winning team took the lead for good.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Who gets the loss is a no-brainer. The "win" in HS, when it is up for debate, is many times decided by who the coach feels deserves it.

I feel this is good practice because in many cases a kid starts a game, throws 3 lights out innings, his team has a big lead, the coach pulls the kid to protect his arm, and/or to give others players innings of experience, that starter deserves the "W" and the others should be more than satisfied to get the innings they got. To many coaches will keep the stud in the game for "records" purposes and that is a bad road to follow IMO. An injury or any other "unable to perform" situation should follow the rule book.

After HS, follow the definition of the rulebook.

IMO
Last edited by rz1
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
rz1,

High school has its own rule book, and that rule book says you have to go 4. You can't wait until after high school to use the high school book, because college and pros have their own rules.

NCAA rules permit a starter to get a W with less than 5 if shorter stints were discussed and agreed before game time. Pro rules have no exception to the 5-inning standard.

The coach may well record the stats wrong in his stat book, but they're still wrong. And in any event, the decision is made by the official scorer, who is supposed to be independent of either team (though he is often in reality a "homer").
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Let me try this one more time.

In high school, under the NFHS rule book, the starter must complete 4 innings to qualify for the win.

No, a pitcher who starts the 4th but does not finish it cannot earn a win.

No, if you divvy up the game among several pitchers, the starter still cannot be the winner in a game where he did not complete the 4th.

There is no discretion in NFHS, just as there is none under the 5-inning MLB standard.

NCAA allows a shorter start to get a win if it was agreed by the opposing coaches before the game that the starter would be on a shorter stint. But there is no comparable exception under NFHS or MLB rules.

Now, scorers do all sorts of things. But if they give a win for a starter who doesn't finish the 4th, they aren't following the rules.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
rz1,

High school has its own rule book, and that rule book says you have to go 4. You can't wait until after high school to use the high school book, because college and pros have their own rules.


MD,
You're absolutely correct and if we sat down after a game and looked at the book as we would score it, and totaled things up we would be in agreement in regard to the statistical outcome. The only problem I have is the HS book is in most cases fiction to begin with. Whether it is a team manager, a sub who lost the flip, or a dad who wants to help, the book many times has no consistencies. In order for it to be "official" it has to be done right, it has to be done right for every game, home and away, and I don't see that happening at the HS level. As a result, the important number is the score at the end of the game, the rest are "at-a-boys", and then the book can be shelved next to the Vonnegut collection. I feel that is why college recruiters have no interest in looking at HS stats.

That's the only argument that I have and it's a weak one since the game is made up of rules not opinions.
Last edited by rz1
S Strike 3100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
If the team wins why does it even matter which pitcher gets the W---the team won !!!


If that's your point, then let's just throw away every baseball stat that has ever been recorded and just keep the final standings of league play since the dawn of baseball.

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ! Always have to be combative or argumentative?
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
rz1,

You're absolutely right about most HS stats being unreliable.

I read a story in the local paper last year where a coach was bragging on his pitcher having allowed only X earned runs in his Y starts. The problem was, he had given up more than X earned runs in his one game against us! So, even if he had given up 0 earned runs in every other start, someone was cooking the books. That same team had their coach lobby hard for All District status for a player based on a claimed batting average that was over .500. In two games against our team, this kid went 1-for-9. Apparently he tore it up against everyone else!

HS stats are not reliable for recruiting because books can be cooked (and also because a kid can have a hot streak or a cold streak and in a short season either would give you an inaccurate projection of the kid's abilities). You can score an E a hit when you're batting, you can score a hit an E when your guy is pitching, you can presume a double play when the rule book says you can't, etc. Sometimes it's out of ignorance of the rules. Sometimes it's intentional and the result of pure bias, or a misguided attempt to help a kid get noticed.

But, the whole point of arguing over whether or not you score something a certain way is to encourage folks to follow the rules and stamp out these sorts of things. If we all do it right, then we can get closer to comparing apples and apples from team to team.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
strike 3

not being argumentative ===I just find it odd how people say baseball is a team game and here we have a dad worrying about who gets the win


also HS stats are worth squat--I once saw a kid win the RBI title in HS with 60 plus RBI's in 20 games---you call that real


strike three means you are OUT !!!!
Last edited by TRhit
55mom55mom1,000+ posts
rule 9-6 a. starting pitcher has to pitch first four innings - team is ahead and is replaced, team holds lead for remainder of the game - winning pitcher

and then there is this:

rule 9-6 b. (pg 61 2008 rule book) says that if the game ("ends for whatever reason") in less than seven innings, then the starting pitcher can be delcared the winning pitcher with 3 consecutive innings.

9-6 b. 1. if scored is tied, new contest (but then there are no guidelines that follow?)

b. 3. If opposition is ahead, pitchers up to that time can not get win, if pitcher takes and maintains a lead the remainder of the game, that pitcher gets win.

b. 4. Generally the relief pitcher with the win is the one when his team takes and holds a lead. However, if he only pitches a short while or is ineffective, the next pitcher does a better job in keeping lead, is given the win.

It's too long to type out.

baseball rules give me a headache.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
rz1,

You're absolutely right about most HS stats being unreliable.

I read a story in the local paper last year where a coach was bragging on his pitcher having allowed only X earned runs in his Y starts. The problem was, he had given up more than X earned runs in his one game against us! So, even if he had given up 0 earned runs in every other start, someone was cooking the books. That same team had their coach lobby hard for All District status for a player based on a claimed batting average that was over .500. In two games against our team, this kid went 1-for-9. Apparently he tore it up against everyone else!

HS stats are not reliable for recruiting because books can be cooked (and also because a kid can have a hot streak or a cold streak and in a short season either would give you an inaccurate projection of the kid's abilities). You can score an E a hit when you're batting, you can score a hit an E when your guy is pitching, you can presume a double play when the rule book says you can't, etc. Sometimes it's out of ignorance of the rules. Sometimes it's intentional and the result of pure bias, or a misguided attempt to help a kid get noticed.

But, the whole point of arguing over whether or not you score something a certain way is to encourage folks to follow the rules and stamp out these sorts of things. If we all do it right, then we can get closer to comparing apples and apples from team to team.
In our conference a coach went to the coaches meeting claiming his ace pitcher should be first team all-conference for going undefeated. Seems the coach (third place team) held his ace back in four games against the best two teams. The aces on those teams beat each other by scores of 1-0 and 2-1. They each had a lose. This coach argued how in the world can pitchers with a loss be first team over his undefeated stud. He didn't win his argument. His ace made third team. It turns out he pitched a majority of his games against losing teams while the two studs with a loss always faced the best opponent each week.
Last edited by RJM
S Strike 3100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
strike 3

not being argumentative ===I just find it odd how people say baseball is a team game and here we have a dad worrying about who gets the win


also HS stats are worth squat--I once saw a kid win the RBI title in HS with 60 plus RBI's in 20 games---you call that real


strike three means you are OUT !!!!


Strike 3 means my kid just struck yours out! Also, you're not out if you reach safely on a dropped third strike.

Nothing wrong with having stats in high school. Don't we use stats to determine how well a player is performing? Agreed, high school stats don't follow a player to the next level but there's nothing wrong in keeping them and there's nothing wrong with the poster's question.
Last edited by Strike 3
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
strike 3


Dont assume anything --you never saw my son hit and I can safely say if he saw your post your kid WOULD NEVER STRIKE HIM OUT !!!! In fact the first strike might just back up the middle


Stats in HS are for Daddy and Mommy -they mean nothing to college coaches and pro scouts as there is no relation from one player to another because of the variance in competition.

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