Hip Rotation

quote:

Originally posted by THop:
Inspired by Beemax, my opinion is that hip rotation (cause) controls the back foot (effect). If you swing in real slow motion the two tend to work together but if you swing properly at real speed, you can see that the hips turn/rotate/clear first.

In my study, I believe professional hitters (when swinging at fastball strikes) clear or rotate their hips so violently that the ball of their back foot comes up during the hips rotation and back down (hop) after contact is made or the swing is completed.

I also think that hip rotation effects the slotting of the back elbow (like the back foot) when swinging at fastball strikes.

My cue for teaching proper hip rotation to hitters is “turn your front hip back as fast and as far as you can” (to start the swing).

FWIW,

THop

The hips should rotate only to the desired direction of ball flight, which will leave the back knee pointing in that direction.

You said:

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My cue for teaching proper hip rotation to hitters is “turn your front hip back as fast and as far as you can” (to start the swing).

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Great cue, IMO. Be sure the kids are correctly loading the back leg and blocking the front leg before doing this, though. By doing this, you can turn linear momentum into rotational momentum, and you can turn the hips fast while the center of pressure is on the front foot, delivering a fast bat through the zone.

Seattle Swing Coach,

I have always believed that it’s easier (and more powerful) to pull than to push, and this really makes sense to a hitter making it an easy sell. That’s why I settled on “pull” back of the front hip instead of “push” the back hip around.

I also think this cue “turn your front hip back as fast and as far as you can” totally eliminates the need to “teach” back hip, back knee, slot back elbow and back foot action at all.

I teach a lot more than hitting so anytime I can teach one thing that will produce another (or more than one), I jump all over it. Not to short change the player, but to teach him more skills.

Another great thing about this hip turn cue, for my hitters anyhow, is that it proves the violent hip turn causes the front leg to straighten (firm up) during the swing and not the other way around (my opinion).

Yet another plus is how every hitter seems to begin automatically getting his hands closer to his body during the swing (before contact, not after). Without having to consciously think about his hands and arms at all. I often discuss this fact with them to confirm in their minds other cues they may have heard (but not understood) in the past- like “pull the knob/circular hand path/stay inside the ball/stay short to the ball and long through the zone, hit the inside of the ball, etc., etc”.

To me, hip rotation is the most under taught physical swing mechanic on the Baseball Internet. At least the 9 years I’ve been reading boards like this one.

THop

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I have always believed that it’s easier (and more powerful) to pull than to push, and this really makes sense to a hitter making it an easy sell. That’s why I settled on “pull” back of the front hip instead of “push” the back hip around.
---

Not only is it easier to visualize for most hitters, but teaching them to push with the back hip can lead to drifting with the upper body after lead foot block. Your methods are spot-on.

The toughest thing I have to teach good prospects is that while they can manhandle high school or junior college pitching even if they have bat drag or lazy hands, they will have serious problems at the pro and Division-I college level if they don't maintain a repeatable short swing by keeping their hands inside.

Seattle Swing Coach,

You said:

"Great cue, IMO. Be sure the kids are correctly loading the back leg and blocking the front leg before doing this, though. By doing this, you can turn linear momentum into rotational momentum, and you can turn the hips fast while the center of pressure is on the front foot, delivering a fast bat through the zone."

What do you mean by "loading the back leg and blocking the front leg?"

Also what do you mean by "center of pressure?"

THop,

Good thread. "Stretch and Fire" is a keyword that has been used in here many times before. In Layman's terms, the most powerful swing is started from the feet on up to the hands. Once the back heel begins to come up, the hips should beging to rotate as well. If the hitter can keep his hands back at this moment, it creates this "stretch" as if you were to pull a rubber band back.

When you pull a rubber band back on your hand and let it go, what happens? It gets shot off. If you were to not pull the rubber band back, nothing will happen, right?

When looking for this "stretch" on video, it is very quick. Sometimes it can be the difference of one frame where you see the hips start as the hands are back. Then the next frame you will see the hands beginning to slot into the swing. As long as the hips start before the hands, be it one, two, or three frames difference on video, proper power is being created in the swing, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:

What do you mean by "loading the back leg and blocking the front leg?"

Also what do you mean by "center of pressure?"

I teach the Chris Yeager style of rotational hitting, with four major steps in the swing: Back leg load, back leg push, front leg block, front leg push.

By back leg load, I mean loading on the back leg as the pitcher goes into the windup. By blocking the front leg, I just mean lead leg plant and turning the linear momentum you generate by moving forward into rotational momentum.

Okay, I agree with you that rotational hitting should be taught 100%.

I also agree that you should load back before going forward, so I can agree with you somewhat on loading up on the back leg. I use different terminology with hitters I work with, but to each their own, and I think in theory we agree here as well.

As for blocking the front leg, I think we are way off in our terminology here. I have always used "blocking" as blocking the hips, or not clearing them all the way. Of course by this I mean not allowing yourself to properly rotate. Again, I am pretty sure that we are on the same page here in terms of what we would want to see from hitters. For me, instead of using the que "block the front leg," I would say, "hit up against a firm front side."

I usually don't work with hitters (or myself for that matter) on blocking the front leg, as you say. If a hitter loads back and rotates properly (without head movement forward after front foot plant), they will hit up against a firm front side. IMO it is impossible not to if you do not drift with your upper body after foot plant.

Two more questions for you SSCoach,

What do you mean by "front leg push?"

And who is Chris Yeager?

Regarding Hip Turn:

I feel in my years of teaching college hitters, I feel that if I overemphasized a hitter's front hip would often cause a hitter to throw their hip open too early causing them to pull off the ball. So therefore, I made sure that my hitter would stay closed with the frontside emphasizing their foot staying closed and finishing high with their hands on the follow through about as high as a hitter's ear. If a hitter throws their hands hard and through the zone will often cause proper rotation and alignment and if a hitter has proper heal(higher than toes on backside 45 degree ) and toe position than hitter will be in good shape because they will be able to rotate more easily.

Mechanic Doctor
Former College Hitting Instructor
Former Professional Scout

quote:

........I feel that if I overemphasized a hitter's front hip would often cause a hitter to throw their hip open too early causing them to pull off the ball.

Are you sure the front hip was the cause for pulling off the ball?

Mechanicsdoctor,

You said:

"If a hitter throws their hands hard and through the zone will often cause proper rotation and alignment and if a hitter has proper heal(higher than toes on backside 45 degree ) and toe position than hitter will be in good shape because they will be able to rotate more easily."


Telling a hitter to throw his hands may be a good verbal que when working on certain aspects of the swing. However, I disagree that if a hitter throws their hands hard it will cause proper rotation. The reason for this is that the hips should begin to rotate to get the hands through the zone, not the other way around. IMO this is how the swing works (hips leading the hands) because I have seen it time and time again on video with the best hitters in the Major Leagues.

Again, telling a hitter to throw his hands may be a good verbal que at times, but I feel that it is important to understand proper hip rotation and how it works first.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

........I feel that if I overemphasized a hitter's front hip would often cause a hitter to throw their hip open too early causing them to pull off the ball.

Are you sure the front hip was the cause for pulling off the ball?

When I slow it down for a successful hitters as their stride foot lands their hip should be closed. If not, then it has a tendency to control the shoulder and head.

mechanicsdoctor I disagree. The more clips I look at the more I see the lower body running start. Clear the hips. Watch Rowand's lead knee.

quote:

Originally posted by Pronk:
mechanicsdoctor I disagree. The more clips I look at the more I see the lower body running start. Clear the hips. Watch Rowand's lead knee.

When we are talking about the hips being aligned we are just talking about their alignmnet when the stride lands. In each case the Rowand and Bonds don't start their hip rotation until their stride is complete and clears their hip once the front foot lands. When teaching non-professional hitters, they may not be athletic enough to perform the hip rotation properly and they may open up to fast. Therefore, I feel it is a risk to concentrate on throwing hip hard. For more advance hitters, like Rowand, Soriano because they are such great athletes will be successful most of the time so one would work with them in a more advance fashion, rather than a high school hitter.

Mechanics Doctor

When I look at Bonds, he strides slightly out, but he compensates being close to the plate because he is so quick inside and he stays balances so well. When he travels with his stride forward but when you take a snap shot of his body when his foot lands on the stride their hip is closed and they are balanced. Hard to see with the pictures provided. I would need to slow mo them. I don't believe you should teach a running start. What does that mean to an average hs or college hitter? Will their head travel too much or will they lunge at the ball? Maybe I just need an explanation of a running start.

The most basic explanation is once you start your load, be it with hips, hands or both, their motion never stops until the swing finsihes. The idea is that this creates the most momentum behind the ball.

Think of it this way: There are two cars getting ready for a drag race. Car A is starting from a dead stop while Car B is starting 50 feet back with a head start. Once car B, with the speed already gained from its head (running) start reaches the starting line car A can then go as well. Assuming neither car breaks down, which car is most likely to win? Car B, right? That's the idea behind the running start. If you had the option, would you rather have a dead start, or a running start?

Now, mechanicsdoctor, you stated that:

"When we are talking about the hips being aligned we are just talking about their alignmnet when the stride lands. In each case the Rowand and Bonds don't start their hip rotation until their stride is complete and clears their hip once the front foot lands. When teaching non-professional hitters, they may not be athletic enough to perform the hip rotation properly and they may open up to fast. Therefore, I feel it is a risk to concentrate on throwing hip hard. For more advance hitters, like Rowand, Soriano because they are such great athletes will be successful most of the time so one would work with them in a more advance fashion, rather than a high school hitter."

First, we are talking about the hips leading the hands. The bonds clip is a great example of this. Download it onto your computer and play it in slo mo if you need to. His hips clearly begin to open as his hands are moving back.

You now are speaking of hip alignment when that wasn't really the topic here. Not sure why.

You say that you cannot clear the hips until the front foot lands. 100% Correct, but who in here said that you could before the front foot lands?

One of your main points is teaching non-professional hitters. You say they aren't as athletic, therefore they shouldn't concentrate as much on hip rotation. IMO this is where instructors get this wrong. I have heard this argument before and it makes no sense to me. Are you saying that because an amateur hitter isn't as athletic, you have to teach them to swing like amateurs, not big leaguers? IMO that is an excuse for instructors to teach what they believe is relevant in the swing while ignoring what is relevant in the swings of the best in the game.

Say you are teaching a 14 year old kid. Is he as athletic as Barry Bonds? No. Can he still be a professional player at some point? Absolutely. So why teach him something that would be a detriment to him reaching his potential? Just beacuse he can't play pro ball at the age of 14? I hope you understand my point.

In your second post you say:

"I don't believe you should teach a running start. What does that mean to an average hs or college hitter? Will their head travel too much or will they lunge at the ball? Maybe I just need an explanation of a running start."

You say that you shouldn't teach what a running start is, then you ask what it is

That would be like me saying I don't think you should teach the average high school or college student algebra. I'm not sure what algebra is
though.

I would rather say don't knock it until you try it. there is a lot to be learned in this game and IMO we all should be trying to learn it everyday.

Bee Max,

It is IMO that teaching hitters to rotate their hips before starting their hands might cause some serious mechanical flaws. I know that if I have a hitter who throws their hip too soon all bets are off. Therefore, working with most college and high school hitters and the opening of the front hip becomes problematic because they can not get the timing right. Therefore, a hitter may drag bat through the zone and be vulnerable to any off speed pitch. I guess, we might differ in opinion, but, I like and welcome our discussion.

If you have any drills that work on the rotation of hip or timing much appreciated.

THop,

Talk to me about teaching to start the hip rotation with the front him.

Mechanic,

quote:

In each case the Rowand and Bonds don't start their hip rotation until their stride is complete and clears their hip once the front foot lands

Complete nonsense.

Don't let the video get in the way of your opinion.

Rotation puts the foot down.



This site just came back to life.

Welcome, Loose Cannon. Nice picture (for a first time poster). I'm guessing you may have something to add to this site. Just a guess.

Here we go again! ( )

Oh and do some of the boyz smell fresh blood in the water?

quote:

Originally posted by mechanicsdoctor:
Bee Max,

It is IMO that teaching hitters to rotate their hips before starting their hands might cause some serious mechanical flaws. I know that if I have a hitter who throws their hip too soon all bets are off. Therefore, working with most college and high school hitters and the opening of the front hip becomes problematic because they can not get the timing right. Therefore, a hitter may drag bat through the zone and be vulnerable to any off speed pitch. I guess, we might differ in opinion, but, I like and welcome our discussion.

If you have any drills that work on the rotation of hip or timing much appreciated.

Okay, first off, I strongly disagree with your opinion that teaching the hips to lead the hands will lead to serious mechanical flaws. IMO the clips don't lie. The best hitters in the game do it, so why shouldn't we teach it?

I do understand where you are coming from when you say that teaching hips before hands leads to a hitter pulling off the ball. Again, I believe that if you teach it correctly the hitter will not pull off the ball.

I like to always focus on the feet first, and many, many of the best big league swings begin once the back heel begins to raise (the first step in rotation.)

If you want to work on that, a good drill is to do front toss with the hitter and have them focus solely on the back heel coming up. As with any drill, it may work or may not for the hitter, but it is worth a try.

I like to tell the hitters to think about rotating their back hip at the pitcher as hard as they can while staying on BALANCE. Another good cue is to tell them to turn their belly button as fast as they can towards the pitcher while staying on BALANCE.

You can also do what I call separtaion drills, where you work on loading the hitter's hands back to their launch position followed by the back heel coming up. It is tough to describe in words but it should go like this: Load back, stride, once stride foot touches, pop the back heel up (or beging to rotate the back foot-whatever verbal que works for you.)

The timing for rotation is as i said earlier...Once the front foot comes down, rotation should start. I am not an advocate of "get your foot down early," as I believe it causes "dead start" bats, minimizing power. If you use a running start and get your foot down ON TIME, you can create maximum power with proper rotation.

I believe direction is a key when teaching rotation. I want everything to be directed at the pitcher. By that I mean I want the hips and hands firing in that direction. IMO if your direction is going that way, you won't close yourself off (or block yourself), sapping power, or over-rotate, where the hitter will come off balance and (as you say) pull off the ball.

You say that if a hitter throws thier hip too soon all bets are off. True, and the exact same can be said for a hitter that throws their hands before their hips as well.

It is important to remember that once the hips begin to open the hands should go as well. I don't want the hands to get lost in this. Some say that the hands are "just along for the ride." I disagree with that. The hands need to fire through contact, IMO, because the hips should have done all their work before then. However, this thread is about the hips, not the hands.

IMO if you start the hands first you will be way more vulnerable to offspeed. To hit offspeed well you HAVE to keep the hands back. Again off topic according to hips but I felt it had to be said.

If you want to see a bat drag through the zone, swing without rotation. All hands, no rotation. Again, and I can't emphasize this enough, the clips don't lie.

quote:

Oh and do some of the boyz smell fresh blood in the water?

I'm out of jail, Blue Dog.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:

As for blocking the front leg, I think we are way off in our terminology here. I have always used "blocking" as blocking the hips, or not clearing them all the way. Of course by this I mean not allowing yourself to properly rotate. Again, I am pretty sure that we are on the same page here in terms of what we would want to see from hitters. For me, instead of using the que "block the front leg," I would say, "hit up against a firm front side."

Yeah, we're on the same page here. I typically use "firm front side" to describe pitching, but it is equally applicable here.

quote:

IMO it is impossible not to if you do not drift with your upper body after foot plant.

This is where we disagree. In the clips of Bonds/Rowand in this thread, you can see after foot strike their head is calm and upper body still. They move the center of pressure to the front leg but still very much coil the upper body and avoid it from leaking by drifting forward.

quote:

Two more questions for you SSCoach,

What do you mean by "front leg push?"

And who is Chris Yeager?

Front leg push is the final phase of the swing - the lead leg stiffens (firms up) and combines with the wrists snapping to deliver extra power at the point of contact. We're on the same page on this one since it's a part of hitting against a firm front side, as you like to put it.

Chris Yeager is the former Padres hitting coach who had pretty good success working with Josh Barfield's swing before his great rookie year in San Diego. He is now considered one of the best (if not THE best) experts on the mechanics of the rotational swing and works extensively on video analysis.

quote:

Originally posted by Loose Cannon:
Mechanic,

quote:

In each case the Rowand and Bonds don't start their hip rotation until their stride is complete and clears their hip once the front foot lands

Complete nonsense.

Don't let the video get in the way of your opinion.

Rotation puts the foot down.



This site just came back to life.

Loose Cannon,

Great stuff. I already like what you have to say.

Loose Cannon,

Many members here know that you keep getting kicked off of this site (and other sites) under various names. If you would like to stay for a while this time, just show some respect in your posts...even to posters who are just starting to learn, or who disagree with you.

I don't have a problem with anything you have posted so far, but here is one that is heading down an old path: "Complete nonsense." You don't need to say that to one of our members to begin an opposing opinion. For example, here's how Beemax started a post: "Okay, first off, I strongly disagree with your opinion that..." Why don't you try something like that?

To other members who don't know "Loose Cannon"'s history and wonder why I'm picking on him: It usually starts off with a few slightly rude comments (like "Complete nonsense"), then escalates to a parade of insults. I'm asking Loose Cannon to just discuss hitting without the insults.

Julie

In all fairness to the Loose Cannon, there are some members who seek and attack LC. More specifically, three of them are moderators, one of whom does it purely out of vengence for a conversation years ago. Go back and read the posts.

So, when those members attack him, they should be held to the same standard. I know it's your site, and that you choose the moderators, etc, but they should be held to (at least) the same standard of name calling and attacks. Because, those get pretty petty, too.

Thank you.

This board needs Loose Cannons insight. His approach on hitting is in line with Dmac and Swingbuster.

quote:

Originally posted by cheeseattheknees:
In all fairness to the Loose Cannon, there are some members who seek and attack LC. More specifically, three of them are moderators, one of whom does it purely out of vengence for a conversation years ago. Go back and read the posts.

So, when those members attack him, they should be held to the same standard. I know it's your site, and that you choose the moderators, etc, but they should be held to (at least) the same standard of name calling and attacks. Because, those get pretty petty, too.

Thank you.

Speaking as a moderator, no one has been cut more slack than Richard. He has been thrown off of this site more often than Carter has pills. (Ok showing my age. ) Yet, he has been allowed to come back. Need anyone be reminded of Ohfur, Linear, Teacherman, Rshard, ... It is absurd given this that you would state that he has been treated unfairly. Any post allowed by any poster after they are thrown off the first time is only done due to the kindness of MN-Mom.

Question....you mean he wasn't Infopimp? Chameleon?

I need a scorecard to know the players.

quote:

Originally posted by cheeseattheknees:
Question....you mean he wasn't Infopimp? Chameleon?

I need a scorecard to know the players.

Thanks for the laugh. Yes and then some. I'd get blisters if I typed out every identity. I don't agree with Richard and that is not a secret. He knows the rules of playing this game. If he follows those rules, I agree with MN-Mom. If not, well ...

One other thought. Siggy's site is down. If I were a certain poster, those clips are in jeapordy. I'd use them sparingly and make sure that other posters don't reference them to MLB.

quote:

IMO it is impossible not to if you do not drift with your upper body after foot plant.

Seattle Swing Coach, you said:

"This is where we disagree. In the clips of Bonds/Rowand in this thread, you can see after foot strike their head is calm and upper body still. They move the center of pressure to the front leg but still very much coil the upper body and avoid it from leaking by drifting forward."


What I meant is that if you rotate properly your head will stay calm, as you say. If you were to put a line through the middle of a hitters body at front heel plant, they should rotate around that line (or axis) without drifting forward. Their head does not move forward after front heel plant.

I'm not sure what you mean by "they move the center of pressure to the front leg but still very much coil the upper body and avoid it from leaking by drifting forward."

It sounds like you say that in order to aviod the upper body from leaking forward, great hitters DRIFT forward.

To me, leaking and drifting is the same thing, and niether of them are good IMO. If this is in fact what you mean I will have to strongly disagree.

Maybe I should rephrase all of this.

After front heel plant, the head should not move forward at all. At that point the upper body should have done all its forward movement toward the ball (hands and rotation not included). Once the heel plants rotation should have already begun, (as stated by our new frined Loose Cannon ) however subtle that may be.

Once that heel plants the body should rotate on an axis (boy I'm getting way too technical). In Bonds' case, I have clips of him from the side where his head actually moves back a small amount after contact. That's not something to teach IMO, but he is a great example of not drifting with the upper body after heel plant.

If you really believe that hitters "drift forward" with their upper body after heel plant try this: Stand up, get in your stance. Load, stride, and try and keep your head from moving forward while "drifting" your upper body forward. IMO this is impossible to do unless you have a double jointed neck.

My point here is that when you look at the clips there is no head movement forward after heel plant. It is physically impossible for the upper body to drift forward while the head doesn't move.

Hopefully I didn't misinterpret you quote. If I did, please let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
If you really believe that hitters "drift forward" with their upper body after heel plant try this: Stand up, get in your stance. Load, stride, and try and keep your head from moving forward while "drifting" your upper body forward. IMO this is impossible to do unless you have a double jointed neck.

My point here is that when you look at the clips there is no head movement forward after heel plant. It is physically impossible for the upper body to drift forward while the head doesn't move.

Hopefully I didn't misinterpret you quote. If I did, please let me know.

We're on the same page, but we're talking around each other. Hopefully we can meet up sometime at Strike-Zone and demonstrate what we mean physically. I definitely do not believe that hitters should drift with the upper body; I only mean that they should shift the center of pressure to the front leg with the lower body while keeping the upper body back (to avoid drifting/leaking, like you say).

Redbird5,

I think the idea came from Ben Hogan's Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf (piano stool description). I read it and The Science of Hitting, cover to cover, probably 100 times in the 80’s.

But pull back with the front hip is just a “swing thought” (cue). I felt like it made me quicker personally, that’s all.

I also believe that that quickness enables a hitter to start closer to the plate and keep a good pitcher honest (away) and still be able to turn on his fastball (in).

But that’s just me talking.

THop

quote:

I'm out of jail, Blue Dog.

Good to see you back.......

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
Loose Cannon,

Many members here know that you keep getting kicked off of this site (and other sites) under various names. If you would like to stay for a while this time, just show some respect in your posts...even to posters who are just starting to learn, or who disagree with you.

I don't have a problem with anything you have posted so far, but here is one that is heading down an old path: "Complete nonsense." You don't need to say that to one of our members to begin an opposing opinion. For example, here's how Beemax started a post: "Okay, first off, I strongly disagree with your opinion that..." Why don't you try something like that?

To other members who don't know "Loose Cannon"'s history and wonder why I'm picking on him: It usually starts off with a few slightly rude comments (like "Complete nonsense"), then escalates to a parade of insults. I'm asking Loose Cannon to just discuss hitting without the insults.

Julie

Yes, Miss Landers

quote:

Originally posted by Seattle Swing Coach:
I teach the Chris Yeager style of rotational hitting, with four major steps in the swing: Back leg load, back leg push, front leg block, front leg push.

In terms of hip rotation, do you believe that a hitting student should concentrate specifically rotating their hip, or do you feel that a focus on the lead leg push back will take care of that?

If the lead leg push back is what is causing the hip to accelerate, then would you direct a student that is not rotating their hip enough to place more emphasis on their lead leg push back?

IMO, if a hitter focuses on rotation and does it correctly, the lead leg will firm up. I have never told a kid (or myself) to push the lead leg back. While I think SeattleSC and I have the same idea of what we want to see from a hitter, we have different ways of how we go about teaching it.

The term "front leg push" does not do much for me. In my years of being around baseball, at the high school, college, and pro level, I have not really heard that term.

I prefer to say "hit up against a strong front side." This cue has always made sense to me (maybe because I have heard it so much) because as a hitter I believe that all your energy gets transferred into that front leg as you rotate. This can be evidenced by any hitter whose back foot comes off the gound during the swing (which happens a lot).

Again, SSC and I have similar goals, IMO, but we just have different ways of verbalizing them.