Don't really want to get involved but I was hitting around .500 then went like 0-10 it was pretty bad. Then I concentrated on not moving my arms and hands to much just throw the hands at the ball and went 5-6 my last 2 games.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
We must all admit... You can copy the Pujols swing without getting Pujols type results.
Just didn't want anyone to think it's as easy as copying someone's swing.
Please continue
I could not agree more, nor is it any easier to
copy Ted Williams or anyone elses swing and get the same results.
It takes hard work and good instruction and more hard work.
quote:Originally posted by 4luvofthegame:
Don't really want to get involved but I was hitting around .500 then went like 0-10 it was pretty bad. Then I concentrated on not moving my arms and hands to much just throw the hands at the ball and went 5-6 my last 2 games.
I'm glad to here about your multiple hit games. The quieter you keep your upper body movement the more hits you "will" get.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
The term "staying inside the ball" is a very poor one and is overused without helping any hitters. If you hit the ball any place on the bat without the ball hitting your hands, you have stayed inside the ball, but have not necessarily done a good job of hitting the ball.
And you're a scout? You have never heard of getting around the ball, or a long swing?
quote:The knob is pointed at the ball for a millisecond only. When you take a swing, the knob will be pointed in a lot of directions during the course of the swing, but you don't pull the knob to the ball.
Everything in the swing hapens in fractions of seconds. It only takes 4/10ths of a second for an 86 mph pitch to reach the plate. It takes half of that to identify the pitch and the location. That only leaves the other half to swing.[/QUOTE]
The "knob" or "hands" lead the barrel to the ball. Unless of course, you are around the ball and have a long swing.
quote:Originally posted by Teacherman:
Coach Steve....
You're not going to learn how to teach hitting by backing off.
I learned to teach hitting with Charley Lau Jr. for four years. Son of probably the best hitting instructor ever. IMHO. And your experience on teaching a swing is? Jr.'s not his father, but he did a very nice job with A-Rod don't you think? And as far as I'm concerned, Jr. is just as good of a teacher as his father was before him. I am a firm believer that that the hips turn inward not the shoulders. This may naturally turn the shoulder slightly in, but as soon as you get most hitters thinking about shoulder loads, it hurts their swings. I teach minor league, college, high school and youth league ball players. The biggest problem I see with far to many of them is pulling the front shoulder and long swings. The two areas I originally discussed. So hopefully you coach close to me, then I will be set for students for a long time to come.
I'm not backing off, I just choose not to have the types of discussions you must consider productive. All I see you do on here is put people down. But you never give evidence, just your dribble. I do not have the time for your dribble, I would rather use my time to help hitters become successful. I also do not need your seal of approval for what I teach, I am very secure in my teachings, the results prove it or I would not still be doing this for a full time living.
So have fun stirring it up with others, it just will not be with me. And it's a shame you are like that, because this website lost a person in myself that could bring a lot to a website like this and to a lot of kids, which "should be" what this is all about. But then there is always one of you in every crowd.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Steve:
...I learned to teach hitting with Charley Lau Jr. for four years....
That splains it.
Coach Steve,
Please stick around. It is obvious you have a lot to offer. You're correct, this website is "all about" helping a lot of kids.
I for one love to read various opinions from good baseball people. I don't like the arguing, but I guess it's going to be there.
Please stick around. It is obvious you have a lot to offer. You're correct, this website is "all about" helping a lot of kids.
I for one love to read various opinions from good baseball people. I don't like the arguing, but I guess it's going to be there.
My bias is that Bonds has the optimal swing (shortest/quickest/best blend of power/average/best ability to wait on ball/full plate coverage,etc) and exhibits the essence of what this requires without a lot of extraneous motion (technically what you might scientifically refer to as "slop").
Bonds hitches. Why ?
I like to think of the swing interms of universals and in terms of sequence of joint motions.
When does Bonds "hitch"/drop the hands?
When he interrupts his "rhythmic preswing activity" (Lau) which IS very pronounced.This happens as he makes his "inward turn"/bends at waist/steps in and back with stride foot.Dropping the hands is ideally the desired "arm action" in this phase of the swing.Bat tips toward the vertical.
This is then followed by hip cok as the stride foot lifts-the hands level out and start up primarily by lifting of the back arm("shoulder" or more exactly/lessconfusingly arm/humerus aBduction/lifting away from sideshoulder) and "internal rotation of the arm in the shoulder socket(same arm action as required on throwing when you show the ball to the centerfielder).Bat circles toward pitcher.
This is then followed by the hand cok/scap load/back scap pinch (horizontal adduction of shoulder or more exactly pinching of scap/shoulder blade toward spine) which accompanies the stride foot going out/legs spreading while the front foot stays closed.Bat coks/centers.
Almost all good rotational hitters go through this sequence.1-hitch/drop hands with inward turn (much of this due to bending over torso,but some due to independent arm action)2-level out with hip cok 3--lift with handcok.Bonds shows it especially simply in its essence.
The body naturally wants to work this way with the hand and stride (leg and arm) action synchronized.I would look at Bonds as the optimized essence/economy of motion(once the hands start the hitch) as opposed to extraneous motion.
If you are familiar with Lau Jr,he talks about swing "triggers" the commonest one being the hand cok/scap pinch we have discuseed here lifting the hands to get into the developing swing plane/power plane of the torso.Lau also describes what he calls a "secret second trigger" which is actually the inward turn of the knee which comes from the synchronized "internal rotation" of the front leg and back arm which supports hip cok/same trigger action as described by willimas as ine=ward turn of knee.
I would say these are NOT SEPARATE triggers,but a SEQUENCE that all rotational hitters go thorugh PRECEDED ideally by the hand drop/hitch during the inward turn.Again:
1-Hitch/hand drop/inward turn
2-first-"secret" trigger/inward turn of front knee leading into coking of hip,then
3-handcok/scap load/second trigger
When I look at video,I "believe" all the good hitters "want" to perform this sequence whether they are aware of it or not.
Bonds hitches. Why ?
I like to think of the swing interms of universals and in terms of sequence of joint motions.
When does Bonds "hitch"/drop the hands?
When he interrupts his "rhythmic preswing activity" (Lau) which IS very pronounced.This happens as he makes his "inward turn"/bends at waist/steps in and back with stride foot.Dropping the hands is ideally the desired "arm action" in this phase of the swing.Bat tips toward the vertical.
This is then followed by hip cok as the stride foot lifts-the hands level out and start up primarily by lifting of the back arm("shoulder" or more exactly/lessconfusingly arm/humerus aBduction/lifting away from sideshoulder) and "internal rotation of the arm in the shoulder socket(same arm action as required on throwing when you show the ball to the centerfielder).Bat circles toward pitcher.
This is then followed by the hand cok/scap load/back scap pinch (horizontal adduction of shoulder or more exactly pinching of scap/shoulder blade toward spine) which accompanies the stride foot going out/legs spreading while the front foot stays closed.Bat coks/centers.
Almost all good rotational hitters go through this sequence.1-hitch/drop hands with inward turn (much of this due to bending over torso,but some due to independent arm action)2-level out with hip cok 3--lift with handcok.Bonds shows it especially simply in its essence.
The body naturally wants to work this way with the hand and stride (leg and arm) action synchronized.I would look at Bonds as the optimized essence/economy of motion(once the hands start the hitch) as opposed to extraneous motion.
If you are familiar with Lau Jr,he talks about swing "triggers" the commonest one being the hand cok/scap pinch we have discuseed here lifting the hands to get into the developing swing plane/power plane of the torso.Lau also describes what he calls a "secret second trigger" which is actually the inward turn of the knee which comes from the synchronized "internal rotation" of the front leg and back arm which supports hip cok/same trigger action as described by willimas as ine=ward turn of knee.
I would say these are NOT SEPARATE triggers,but a SEQUENCE that all rotational hitters go thorugh PRECEDED ideally by the hand drop/hitch during the inward turn.Again:
1-Hitch/hand drop/inward turn
2-first-"secret" trigger/inward turn of front knee leading into coking of hip,then
3-handcok/scap load/second trigger
When I look at video,I "believe" all the good hitters "want" to perform this sequence whether they are aware of it or not.
Coach Steve
I too request that you stick around and join the discussion and debate--perhaps if we get more guys like you on here we will have less of the "dribble" from certains posters.
I was not a fan of Charlie Lau and I don't know his son, but for many hitters his system worked and still works
I too request that you stick around and join the discussion and debate--perhaps if we get more guys like you on here we will have less of the "dribble" from certains posters.
I was not a fan of Charlie Lau and I don't know his son, but for many hitters his system worked and still works
quote:Originally posted by Coach Steve:quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
The term "staying inside the ball" is a very poor one and is overused without helping any hitters. If you hit the ball any place on the bat without the ball hitting your hands, you have stayed inside the ball, but have not necessarily done a good job of hitting the ball.
And you're a scout? You have never heard of getting around the ball, or a long swing?quote:The knob is pointed at the ball for a millisecond only. When you take a swing, the knob will be pointed in a lot of directions during the course of the swing, but you don't pull the knob to the ball.
Everything in the swing hapens in fractions of seconds. It only takes 4/10ths of a second for an 86 mph pitch to reach the plate. It takes half of that to identify the pitch and the location. That only leaves the other half to swing.
The "knob" or "hands" lead the barrel to the ball. Unless of course, you are around the ball and have a long swing.[/QUOTE]
Steve, Show me exactly how you get around a ball. Show me a clip of a good ML hitter pulling the knob to the ball. Explain what a long swing is......is it like Pujols or Griffey or L. Walker? What is it?
Dribble? That's you TR. You never bring an ounce of information to hitting or throwing. Not one ounce. Unless your famous comment......."I let my coaches do that"......amounts to an ounce.
Also, it's funny that it's dribble until bbscout steps up and says the same thing.
Which leads to the real problem. You wouldn't know dribble if you saw it. You can't separate information from personality because you don't know the difference.
Also, it's funny that it's dribble until bbscout steps up and says the same thing.
Which leads to the real problem. You wouldn't know dribble if you saw it. You can't separate information from personality because you don't know the difference.
Coach Steve,
A lot of good hitters have made good use of the cue "throw your hands at the ball", however I don't think that is what most of them are actually doing. Generally only hitters that I'd call punch hitters who are to some degree getting the bat out early and letting the ball hit it rather than trying to drive the ball actually do that. Although many would disagree with me I think that is primarily how Rose hit. A great hitter but not a swing I'd teach most kids.
My biggest objection to "throw the hands at the ball" is that taken literally it causes the hands to get out front and the shoulder to pull off the ball resulting in the hitter dragging the bat through the zone.
A lot of good hitters have made good use of the cue "throw your hands at the ball", however I don't think that is what most of them are actually doing. Generally only hitters that I'd call punch hitters who are to some degree getting the bat out early and letting the ball hit it rather than trying to drive the ball actually do that. Although many would disagree with me I think that is primarily how Rose hit. A great hitter but not a swing I'd teach most kids.
My biggest objection to "throw the hands at the ball" is that taken literally it causes the hands to get out front and the shoulder to pull off the ball resulting in the hitter dragging the bat through the zone.
T.guerry, I think that if you look more closely at Bonds' swing, you would not say hitch/hand drop. He loads his back elbow towards the 1st base dugout and that causes the hitch.If you have ever seen a kid just lower his hands without the elbow loading back, you will see a powerless swing. The elbow starts the action, not the hands. I agree with # 2, but not numbers 1 or 3.
Welcome to the site Coach Steve.
I like Teach and BBScout would like to see you produce some video example of a decent pro hitter taking the knob to the ball.
I don't see it happening. There are plenty of high schoolers and college players that do. Why do they do it and the best hitters in the world don't?
Is it because aluminum bats or because they face mediocre pitching allowing them to get away with it? or do they do it because they have never received high level training before some little league coach encouraged them to continue to throw the bat and their weight into the ball?
I like Teach and BBScout would like to see you produce some video example of a decent pro hitter taking the knob to the ball.
I don't see it happening. There are plenty of high schoolers and college players that do. Why do they do it and the best hitters in the world don't?
Is it because aluminum bats or because they face mediocre pitching allowing them to get away with it? or do they do it because they have never received high level training before some little league coach encouraged them to continue to throw the bat and their weight into the ball?
Teacherman
Thanx for the compliment--I always consiuder the source
Maybe the smartest thing to say to you , since you have no respect for my knowledge of the game or anyone elses for that matter, and by the way my knowledge is not taken from sites on the net and regurgitated, is I let my coaches take care of business .
By the way it works well
Thanx for the compliment--I always consiuder the source
Maybe the smartest thing to say to you , since you have no respect for my knowledge of the game or anyone elses for that matter, and by the way my knowledge is not taken from sites on the net and regurgitated, is I let my coaches take care of business .
By the way it works well
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Coach Steve,
Please stick around. It is obvious you have a lot to offer. You're correct, this website is "all about" helping a lot of kids.
I for one love to read various opinions from good baseball people. I don't like the arguing, but I guess it's going to be there.
Thank you PGStaff,
I appreciate your concern for the kids we are trying to help get to the next level.
quote:Originally posted by SBK:
Welcome to the site Coach Steve.
I like Teach and BBScout would like to see you produce some video example of a decent pro hitter taking the knob to the ball.
I don't see it happening. There are plenty of high schoolers and college players that do. Why do they do it and the best hitters in the world don't?
Is it because aluminum bats or because they face mediocre pitching allowing them to get away with it? or do they do it because they have never received high level training before some little league coach encouraged them to continue to throw the bat and their weight into the ball?
I had a web page created on my website for you which shows still photos of hitters pulling the knob to the ball. Since things happen so quickly and not everyone has a way to watch video frame by frame, I thought this would clearly show this happening for untrained eyes.
quote:Originally posted by SBK:
Welcome to the site Coach Steve.
I like Teach and BBScout would like to see you produce some video example of a decent pro hitter taking the knob to the ball.
I don't see it happening. There are plenty of high schoolers and college players that do. Why do they do it and the best hitters in the world don't?
Is it because aluminum bats or because they face mediocre pitching allowing them to get away with it? or do they do it because they have never received high level training before some little league coach encouraged them to continue to throw the bat and their weight into the ball?
Sorry SBK, I guess the link would help. :-)
http://www.prohitting.com/ProHitting/pics.html
This is a page you cannot get to from my home page. You must use this link.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Coach Steve,
A lot of good hitters have made good use of the cue "throw your hands at the ball", however I don't think that is what most of them are actually doing. Generally only hitters that I'd call punch hitters who are to some degree getting the bat out early and letting the ball hit it rather than trying to drive the ball actually do that. Although many would disagree with me I think that is primarily how Rose hit. A great hitter but not a swing I'd teach most kids.
My biggest objection to "throw the hands at the ball" is that taken literally it causes the hands to get out front and the shoulder to pull off the ball resulting in the hitter dragging the bat through the zone.
I also do not like the term throw your hands at the ball. I prefer pull the knob to the ball.
Coach Steve, When you are teaching, how long would you advise a player to pull the knob to the ball? What I mean is, how long does the knob stay pointed at the baseball? In your still pictures, I notice that in the two pics of Griffey and the pic of Thomas,and the pic of Sweeney the knob is not pointed at the baseball at all, so why did you post those pictures? I am sure that at some point in the course of their swings the knob was pointed at the ball, but since it was for about 1 frame (if that), it does not make sense to concentrate on pulling the knob to the ball, as the hitters are not doing that, or they would have the knob at the ball for much longer than one frame.
quote:Originally posted by pops:
Coach Steve, When you are teaching, how long would you advise a player to pull the knob to the ball? What I mean is, how long does the knob stay pointed at the baseball? In your still pictures, I notice that in the two pics of Griffey and the pic of Thomas,and the pic of Sweeney the knob is not pointed at the baseball at all, so why did you post those pictures? I am sure that at some point in the course of their swings the knob was pointed at the ball, but since it was for about 1 frame (if that), it does not make sense to concentrate on pulling the knob to the ball, as the hitters are not doing that, or they would have the knob at the ball for much longer than one frame.
Pops,
A few of the photos are starting to show the release of the barrel, but you should clearly see that the knob is leading the way. The barrel of the bat will follow the knob. In other words, where the knob goes the barrel will follow.
As far as how long, it depends. Depends on bat speed,whether the pitch is inside or outside. The best way to find how far it should be pulled is to use a tee. If the tee upright is in the middle of the plate, the hitter should be hitting between the back two corners of the cage, not eiher side. If you are pulling the ball to the left side of the cage or shortstop to third base side, not long enough. If to the first or second base side, it was pulled to long.
If a hitter is not hitting to all fields and all fields with power, then they are a one dimensional hitter. The good hitters hit with power to all fields. A hitter will get the feel for how long to pull the knob with tee work.
Hope this helps.
My question to BBScout and Teacherman is what theory are you teaching? As close as I can tell it is Ted Williams theory. But, what I don't understand is in his book "The Science of Hitting" on page 41 he states:
"From the stance to the completion of the swing, hands and forearms supply direction."
If he is not directing them to the ball, then where the heck is he directing them to? Isn't the ball what you are trying to hit? Not trying to be facetious or personal, just trying to understand how you put the barrel of the bat on the ball if you are not directing it with the "hands" and as Ted also says "forearms" how do you intend to deliver the bat to the ball? This is also one of the ten absolutes of hitting in the Lau method. This is the what I do not understand on your side.
Surely you do not start the swing with the barrel of the bat. That would cast the arms away from the body putting the hands over the plate, not the barrel of the bat. This is a long swing! Clearly the pictures I provided proves the barrel does not come around first.
Don't want to do the name calling with either of you, I would like to try to understand what you are professing. I would just like some of your answers. I am answering yours. That's all, I do not want things to be personal or insulting here. We can agree to disagree. That is okay.
Thanks,
Steve
"From the stance to the completion of the swing, hands and forearms supply direction."
If he is not directing them to the ball, then where the heck is he directing them to? Isn't the ball what you are trying to hit? Not trying to be facetious or personal, just trying to understand how you put the barrel of the bat on the ball if you are not directing it with the "hands" and as Ted also says "forearms" how do you intend to deliver the bat to the ball? This is also one of the ten absolutes of hitting in the Lau method. This is the what I do not understand on your side.
Surely you do not start the swing with the barrel of the bat. That would cast the arms away from the body putting the hands over the plate, not the barrel of the bat. This is a long swing! Clearly the pictures I provided proves the barrel does not come around first.
Don't want to do the name calling with either of you, I would like to try to understand what you are professing. I would just like some of your answers. I am answering yours. That's all, I do not want things to be personal or insulting here. We can agree to disagree. That is okay.
Thanks,
Steve
BBScout-
I think the Bonds 02 clip at youthbaseballhitting shows what I am describing pretty well.BEFORE he pulls the elbow back so it appears behind the back ( the type of load you are descriing like getting ready for a punch),he first tips the bat forward then second leads with the front heel (transition from inward turn to hip cok) then he does as you describe.
You would have to start the Pujols clip in this thread earlier to see his more truncated and "preloaded" (starting with hands already up/elbow back) version of the same sequence.
I think the body wants to go through this/is attracted toward executing this sequence.
I think the Bonds 02 clip at youthbaseballhitting shows what I am describing pretty well.BEFORE he pulls the elbow back so it appears behind the back ( the type of load you are descriing like getting ready for a punch),he first tips the bat forward then second leads with the front heel (transition from inward turn to hip cok) then he does as you describe.
You would have to start the Pujols clip in this thread earlier to see his more truncated and "preloaded" (starting with hands already up/elbow back) version of the same sequence.
I think the body wants to go through this/is attracted toward executing this sequence.