My grandson is 12.He is 5-8 125 lbs.He swings a 32 in 20 oz bat.He has been hitting mostly ground balls.Do you have some ideas to how he can get some elevation to his hits?Do you think the bat size is OK?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
What is wrong with hitting groundballs?
mabergin, I'm with you....not a fan of groundballs. It's tough to stay out of double-plays and get extra-base hits on groundballs. I imagine with his size, he would be a Little League terror.
Hitting (or not hitting) ground balls is as simple as swing path and where you make contact with the ball.
The difficult part is why the contact is being made where it is.
So, common problems:
Being early: a slightly upward swing (which is good) will have moved higher on the ball the earlier the swing gets to the point of impact. A swing which allows for timing mechanism and adjustment would see an improvement. Usually, focus on the lower body unload/stride and then separation with the upper body...and what the upper body does to load/unload, and you'll see an improvement.
Rolling wrists at/before contact: number of reasons, early being most likely.
Swinging from shoulders down: if rotation is generated by "pulling" front shoulder instead of creating separation with lower body first, then shoulder tilt/turn...the "pull" of the shoulders will tend to elevate front arm/hands and cause the bat to elevate. There are usually weak grounders to opposite side. You will likely see the head flying out when he swings and misses, of which there will be alot, expecially on pitches away.
I'm sure there are other reasons for others to give input.
The third one is one with which my son struggled for years (mostly undetected by a still-learning me, and by way too many paid hitting instructors). When he learned he was strong and had power, his desire to hit a four-bagger on every swing resulted in that habit. And, when things go bad...it is because he returns to it. Creatures of habit can be very frustrating. But, the positive is creatures of habit get easier to fix when you know their habits/tendencies.
BTW: with your son's age, I know he is limited in weight drop per league rules (though, I'm not sure of your specific situation). If he is athletic and strong, I would consider a smaller drop (maybe minus 11...say a 32 inch/ 21 ounce. If league rules permit and he can handle it...possibly a smaller drop.
Hitting (or not hitting) ground balls is as simple as swing path and where you make contact with the ball.
The difficult part is why the contact is being made where it is.
So, common problems:
Being early: a slightly upward swing (which is good) will have moved higher on the ball the earlier the swing gets to the point of impact. A swing which allows for timing mechanism and adjustment would see an improvement. Usually, focus on the lower body unload/stride and then separation with the upper body...and what the upper body does to load/unload, and you'll see an improvement.
Rolling wrists at/before contact: number of reasons, early being most likely.
Swinging from shoulders down: if rotation is generated by "pulling" front shoulder instead of creating separation with lower body first, then shoulder tilt/turn...the "pull" of the shoulders will tend to elevate front arm/hands and cause the bat to elevate. There are usually weak grounders to opposite side. You will likely see the head flying out when he swings and misses, of which there will be alot, expecially on pitches away.
I'm sure there are other reasons for others to give input.
The third one is one with which my son struggled for years (mostly undetected by a still-learning me, and by way too many paid hitting instructors). When he learned he was strong and had power, his desire to hit a four-bagger on every swing resulted in that habit. And, when things go bad...it is because he returns to it. Creatures of habit can be very frustrating. But, the positive is creatures of habit get easier to fix when you know their habits/tendencies.
BTW: with your son's age, I know he is limited in weight drop per league rules (though, I'm not sure of your specific situation). If he is athletic and strong, I would consider a smaller drop (maybe minus 11...say a 32 inch/ 21 ounce. If league rules permit and he can handle it...possibly a smaller drop.
great advice by way back !!!!
Need to let the ball come to you, which is not necessarily the same as letting it get deep.
I like the advice of swinging as heavy a bat as you can without a big drop off in batspeed which can be measured.
typically you can increase the load up to a point, then there is a pretty sudden/suignificant drop off.
swinging overload helps too. the heavier bat lets you feel and create resistance better and it puts more mass in the bathead for a better collision.
Need to let the ball come to you, which is not necessarily the same as letting it get deep.
I like the advice of swinging as heavy a bat as you can without a big drop off in batspeed which can be measured.
typically you can increase the load up to a point, then there is a pretty sudden/suignificant drop off.
swinging overload helps too. the heavier bat lets you feel and create resistance better and it puts more mass in the bathead for a better collision.
This may be contrary to all the "gurus" thinking--usually hitting ground balls means the hitter is htting down on the ball or on the top part of the ball---let him move a step or two up in the box and see what happens===no physics here guys--just old time thinking--provided his swing is solid---he will find out if he moves up in the box
Posted April 10, 2008 12:28 PM Hide Post
This may be contrary to all the "gurus" thinking--usually hitting ground balls means the hitter is htting down on the ball or on the top part of the ball---let him move a step or two up in the box and see what happens===no physics here guys--just old time thinking--provided his swing is solid---he will find out if he moves up in the box
TRhit
-------------------------------------------
Let's see, I mentioned swing path (check) I mentioned contact point on the ball (check)....instead of moving around the box, which would have to change nearly every time you faced a new pitcher with differnt velocities....why not create a swing which creates timing and adjustment?
What you are suggesting is a band aid, not a fix for higher level of play.
But, in your non-physics fix, how does he fix swinging down or hitting the ball on top (which he obviously is doing...it would be tough to hit a ground ball by hitting beneath the ball) and may be a completely different problem than swinging down?
This may be contrary to all the "gurus" thinking--usually hitting ground balls means the hitter is htting down on the ball or on the top part of the ball---let him move a step or two up in the box and see what happens===no physics here guys--just old time thinking--provided his swing is solid---he will find out if he moves up in the box
TRhit
-------------------------------------------
Let's see, I mentioned swing path (check) I mentioned contact point on the ball (check)....instead of moving around the box, which would have to change nearly every time you faced a new pitcher with differnt velocities....why not create a swing which creates timing and adjustment?
What you are suggesting is a band aid, not a fix for higher level of play.
But, in your non-physics fix, how does he fix swinging down or hitting the ball on top (which he obviously is doing...it would be tough to hit a ground ball by hitting beneath the ball) and may be a completely different problem than swinging down?
wayback
Try having him move up a step or so in the box and see what happens--- that is all
Try having him move up a step or so in the box and see what happens--- that is all
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
What is wrong with hitting groundballs?
You will not get as many hits if you hit groundballs all the time. That is what is wrong with hitting groundballs.
There are a lot more hits if you get the ball airborne, whether its a high fly ball that leaves the yard or a line drive base hit.
A 12 year old who is 5-8, 125lbs is a big kid for his age. He should be looking to get the ball in the air and use his size to his advantage. Hitting groundballs is not something a kid that size should strive for.
My Dad would always ask kids, "Would you rather hit the ball to Omar Vizquel or Manny Ramirez?" I think we all know the answer there.
4 guys in the infield, 3 in the outfield with a whole lot more space.
The moral of the story is...get the ball airborne. Your odds of getting hits will increase.
That being said...
mabergin,
Are you familiar with the term "tip and rip" and what it means?
no
The most important point so far was the mention of a shoulders down approach. Have him start hitting with his belly button instead of with his hands. Once your chain is thrown off it is hard to have a consistent and repeatable swing. Also, check his back elbow, I would be willing to bet that it is getting ahead of his top hand (drag) which will cause him to cut off his swing and roll over.
Not knowing where the ground balls are hit,
Then I'm guessing that maybe the batter is hooking the ball which will cause a weak grounder in the infield.
Try hitting the inside part of the ball?
Middle to inside of the ball will allow the batter to drive the ball rather then hook it for a grounder.
EH
Then I'm guessing that maybe the batter is hooking the ball which will cause a weak grounder in the infield.
Try hitting the inside part of the ball?
Middle to inside of the ball will allow the batter to drive the ball rather then hook it for a grounder.
EH
mabergin,
It's tough to really make adjustments when there is no clip of your grandson's swing to work off of. That being said, the "tip and rip" can be a very effective way for him to get balls airborne.
Assuming he is righthanded, and that he holds his hands in his stance by his right armpit, have him take the barrel of the bat and "tip" it by pointing it towards the second baseman (shortstop if he is lefthanded). Now, it shouldn't be directly pointed at the second baseman, but rather "tipped" in that direction.
From that cocked position, simply have him load back and "rip" it!
The whole concept of the "tip and rip" is to create momentum and to swing INTO the path of the ball, which it sounds like he is not doing.
Again, it is very difficult to get the whole concept across without seeing his swing. Hopefully this helps, and if you are unclear on anything, please let me know.
It's tough to really make adjustments when there is no clip of your grandson's swing to work off of. That being said, the "tip and rip" can be a very effective way for him to get balls airborne.
Assuming he is righthanded, and that he holds his hands in his stance by his right armpit, have him take the barrel of the bat and "tip" it by pointing it towards the second baseman (shortstop if he is lefthanded). Now, it shouldn't be directly pointed at the second baseman, but rather "tipped" in that direction.
From that cocked position, simply have him load back and "rip" it!
The whole concept of the "tip and rip" is to create momentum and to swing INTO the path of the ball, which it sounds like he is not doing.
Again, it is very difficult to get the whole concept across without seeing his swing. Hopefully this helps, and if you are unclear on anything, please let me know.
beemax,
It was a rhetorical question. Also, he said "mostly" hitting GBs. I was trying to get more info.
It was a rhetorical question. Also, he said "mostly" hitting GBs. I was trying to get more info.
beemax, I understand and agree with the tip and rip.
I haven't read all of your posts....but, it seems here that you advocate it from a static position.
Is that because you are directing the post toward younger players or players new to that barrel position, and would progress towards a more dynamic movement into barrel tilt/tip?
One of the things I notice at my son's school (a pretty darn good D1 team ranked in the top 30), is that a lot of hitters are pre-set with their hands and barrel, while I'm getting my son to have more hand movement into the tilt.
What are your thoughts?
I haven't read all of your posts....but, it seems here that you advocate it from a static position.
Is that because you are directing the post toward younger players or players new to that barrel position, and would progress towards a more dynamic movement into barrel tilt/tip?
One of the things I notice at my son's school (a pretty darn good D1 team ranked in the top 30), is that a lot of hitters are pre-set with their hands and barrel, while I'm getting my son to have more hand movement into the tilt.
What are your thoughts?
For the 12 year old kid, starting from a static, set position is a good place to start IMO.
Kids pick up things pretty quick from my experience because they have not developed as many habits as older players.
Once they get a feel for the tip they can work in their own style with it.
Some styles are more static than others, but IMO getting the tip from the start, static or no, is most important.
Good questions wayback.
Kids pick up things pretty quick from my experience because they have not developed as many habits as older players.
Once they get a feel for the tip they can work in their own style with it.
Some styles are more static than others, but IMO getting the tip from the start, static or no, is most important.
Good questions wayback.
After some playing around, I've found a couple of things.
I wasn't in the same position as you (tip toward second baseman). I found that I tended to more toward the helmet. I like your position a little better. That has more to do with a more natural top wrist angle and getting the barrel to lag position more smoothly.
The second thing I found is that my hand strength is not what it should be to move it from a static position, so a little waggle tends to give me a more momentum (and bat speed) for inside pitch.
Thanks beemax for moving me forward another step.
I wasn't in the same position as you (tip toward second baseman). I found that I tended to more toward the helmet. I like your position a little better. That has more to do with a more natural top wrist angle and getting the barrel to lag position more smoothly.
The second thing I found is that my hand strength is not what it should be to move it from a static position, so a little waggle tends to give me a more momentum (and bat speed) for inside pitch.
Thanks beemax for moving me forward another step.
Think about this---the boy is 12 years old==that means he is playing at a level where many if not most of the pitchers are throwing pitches that are "fading" as they get to the plate---if the batter is in the back of tha batters box he is hitting on top of a "fading" pitch, thus the ground balls---I may be an old timer but for you young bucks and your theories and "in depth intelligencier" stuff you might want to back up a bit and look at basics not theories---12 years old kids do not understand theories they understand and grasp basics
Move up in the box !!!!
Move up in the box !!!!
quote:Move up in the box !!!!
TRhit
Actually, a hitter should stand in the back of the box...All the time!
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Actually, a hitter should stand in the back of the box...All the time!
That is your opinion.
One benefit of being back in the box is it affords you additional time to read a pitch. Not a whole lot of additional time, but more time non-the-less.
Great hitters face 90+ mph heat daily. Take a look at what they do against a Moyer or Wakefield.
It is not necessary to be a good hitter.
It is not necessary to be a good hitter.
quote:Originally posted by beemax:
mabergin,
It's tough to really make adjustments when there is no clip of your grandson's swing to work off of. That being said, the "tip and rip" can be a very effective way for him to get balls airborne.
Assuming he is righthanded, and that he holds his hands in his stance by his right armpit, have him take the barrel of the bat and "tip" it by pointing it towards the second baseman (shortstop if he is lefthanded). Now, it shouldn't be directly pointed at the second baseman, but rather "tipped" in that direction.
From that cocked position, simply have him load back and "rip" it!
The whole concept of the "tip and rip" is to create momentum and to swing INTO the path of the ball, which it sounds like he is not doing.
Again, it is very difficult to get the whole concept across without seeing his swing. Hopefully this helps, and if you are unclear on anything, please let me know.
or maybe try the bhut hand cue..tip and go in one constant motion...fly balls and line shots guaranteed
A few tips:
Keep hands inside the baseball(knob to the ball)
Weight back
Look at the ball deep as possible in the zone, not out in front of the plate
Keep hands inside the baseball(knob to the ball)
Weight back
Look at the ball deep as possible in the zone, not out in front of the plate
quote:It is not necessary to be a good hitter.
If being good is your goal, go for it!
quote:Originally posted by norstar:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
wayback
Try having him move up a step or so in the box and see what happens--- that is all
TRhit Is right (at least for my kid). He struggled the first few games of the season with hitting ground balls. After much convincing and showing him photos of where is was making contact, he finally took a step up in the box and started hitting line drives to the gaps. Sometimes a simple tweak does wonders.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:It is not necessary to be a good hitter.
If being good is your goal, go for it!
Great job of selecting part of a post to address. Continue with your gibberish.
The only reason I can see for standing back in the box is to give you an extra millisecond or whatever to see the ball, but staying in the back also gives a curve or a slider more time to make you look stupid. Personally I stand in the middle...
I think that the curve and slider as well as change-up are precisely the pitches that a hitter benefits by seeing a millisecond longer. More time to see the break in the ball and read it. I do not think that there is much benefit on a fastball, unless it has late movement.
Beemax,
I was looking at this thread as my 13yr old son was having the same problem as the 12 yr old kid...he was hitting an inordinate amount of balls to shortstop. So at practice last night I had him try the "tip it and rip it" suggestion you had and he was extremely pleased with the results. Instead of hitting groundballs to short he was again hitting solid fly balls and line drives to center and the gaps in right and left center.
To give TRhit his due as well, my son did move up in the box as well. Now I think he is hitting a bit too low on the ball instead of hitting everything on the top like he was so I do believe his advise was also correct.
But now that the "tip it and rip it" seems to have corrected his swing plane and slowed down his swing a touch he can move back a bit and should then start hitting the ball more in the center. So thank you to both of you (Beemax & TRhit) for your simple suggestions as my son's confidence has been restored at the plate again. He can't wait for today's game to see how he'll do.
I was looking at this thread as my 13yr old son was having the same problem as the 12 yr old kid...he was hitting an inordinate amount of balls to shortstop. So at practice last night I had him try the "tip it and rip it" suggestion you had and he was extremely pleased with the results. Instead of hitting groundballs to short he was again hitting solid fly balls and line drives to center and the gaps in right and left center.
To give TRhit his due as well, my son did move up in the box as well. Now I think he is hitting a bit too low on the ball instead of hitting everything on the top like he was so I do believe his advise was also correct.
But now that the "tip it and rip it" seems to have corrected his swing plane and slowed down his swing a touch he can move back a bit and should then start hitting the ball more in the center. So thank you to both of you (Beemax & TRhit) for your simple suggestions as my son's confidence has been restored at the plate again. He can't wait for today's game to see how he'll do.
redsox,
Glad to hear that the tip and rip worked for your son. I will not claim it to be the only thing you can do as a pre-pitch load, but I think it is a good place to start, especially when you are having trouble getting the ball airborne.
Glad to hear that the tip and rip worked for your son. I will not claim it to be the only thing you can do as a pre-pitch load, but I think it is a good place to start, especially when you are having trouble getting the ball airborne.
redsox
Glad to see that it is working out for your son
Glad to see that it is working out for your son
Bluedog
Where does it does it say "front of the box"---what was said was move up in the box
sorry---IMO you are reading wrong just to satisfy your ego---others can be right you know
Where does it does it say "front of the box"---what was said was move up in the box
sorry---IMO you are reading wrong just to satisfy your ego---others can be right you know
For the youth hitter moving up in the box may be a good thing if the pitcher at that age has a difficult time even getting the ball to the catcher, much less with something on it w/ some angle.......
On the other hand I never thought I would say it but I agree w/ Bluedog sort of.....being in the back of box is good for the HS level and above....but not for the reason he gives only......
being in the back of box will force the pitcher to bring the ball up....provided the hitter doesn't chase stuff boarderline down/out of the strike zone......
it is helpful as well in giving you more time to see the ball....obviously......
And I agree TR w/ the fact of dealing with the type of pitching you will see at the youth level more often than not.....
On the other hand I never thought I would say it but I agree w/ Bluedog sort of.....being in the back of box is good for the HS level and above....but not for the reason he gives only......
being in the back of box will force the pitcher to bring the ball up....provided the hitter doesn't chase stuff boarderline down/out of the strike zone......
it is helpful as well in giving you more time to see the ball....obviously......
And I agree TR w/ the fact of dealing with the type of pitching you will see at the youth level more often than not.....
And just an observation......nothing personal
I'm sure you both can/will/want to bury me for something or some view that I have had in the past but........
TR sometimes you come off as a bit brash and all knowing.....general reason for your view is "that's how we did it back then".......which I agree with more often than not but if you dug a little further you could actually come up with a logical reason for your thinking and views on things....you have a lot to offer.......I agree with you a great majority of the time but it can rub people wrong.....
Bluedog.....you come off as very arrogant and all knowing without any practical experience given for your self proclaimed "only way to do it" answers/approach to hitting.....there is not "one" way to do everything.........there is much more to the game than hitting.....and to claim to know so much about our great game as you do at times, I would be anxious to hear your views on some other aspects of the game.....
Again, it is not personal....just an observation that inspires my opinion
I'm sure you both can/will/want to bury me for something or some view that I have had in the past but........
TR sometimes you come off as a bit brash and all knowing.....general reason for your view is "that's how we did it back then".......which I agree with more often than not but if you dug a little further you could actually come up with a logical reason for your thinking and views on things....you have a lot to offer.......I agree with you a great majority of the time but it can rub people wrong.....
Bluedog.....you come off as very arrogant and all knowing without any practical experience given for your self proclaimed "only way to do it" answers/approach to hitting.....there is not "one" way to do everything.........there is much more to the game than hitting.....and to claim to know so much about our great game as you do at times, I would be anxious to hear your views on some other aspects of the game.....
Again, it is not personal....just an observation that inspires my opinion
