Okay new found BFFs...opportunity is knocking.
So say you are actually going to get 4 ABs in a game. I read somewhere else here and now can't find it something about your approach to each AB...like maybe one of them you swing for the fence, one you are looking to put the ball in play without over thinking stuff etc. Or something along those lines.
Hitting bottom 1/3 in the order...what's your approach as the game progresses both if you are winning and then if you are losing?
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Interesting question. Each hitter is different. Each hitter has success using different approaches. The hitter should know himself, his strengths and weaknesses, and take the approach that works best for him for every AB. Of course you have to react to the game situation and execute to the best of your ability whatever the team boss is asking of you. But you also have to play within your capabilities. If you are not a power hitter, it is counter-productive to try to hit the ball out of the park even when your team is down 3 with two on and two out in the bottom of the last inning. Situations are nearly endless, so I won't go much further into that.
Funny you mention the "swing for the fence" scenario. I talked to college soph son last night, getting the game recap. He is not a power guy. He came up in the ninth and the team had a solid lead, his fifth AB. He decided he was going to look for one to turn on and let it rip. This goes against his usual approach. He squared it and it sailed over the LF fence. Just foul. Then he grounded out. My first instinct (and somewhat true feeling) was to tell him he just wasted an AB. His approach has been working well this year, why stray? But I actually thought about one of the recent threads here that discusses the grind of the college athlete. I thought about how disciplined and focused he has otherwise been this year, how excited he would have been with his first college bomb. I let it go. I guess my point is there are rare circumstances where it may be OK to step in the box with an approach other than the one that works best for you but they are rare. And, considering you referenced the bottom 1/3 of the order, this would make it even more important to put your best foot forward every AB to show the coaches you deserve to be there... or maybe higher in the order.
BTW, is this question for your son or in regards to your observations of other players?
This is very much age and ability dependent. It kills me to see LL age kids taking strikes etc when they should be learning how to swing the bat, no matter the score or inning. If the player's a good hitter at the HS level my strategy is to swing hard and often, no matter the score, no thinking involved.
When my son played in the ACC his entire team did not take pitches no matter the score or inning. They rarely bunted. Their leadoff hitter even swung/hit first pitches. They did attempt to situational hit behind runners and hit sac flys with runners on third etc, however they pretty much had the green light 24/7..
This is very much age and ability dependent. It kills me to see LL age kids taking strikes etc when they should be learning how to swing the bat, no matter the score or inning. If the player's a good hitter at the HS level my strategy is to swing hard and often, no matter the score, no thinking involved.
When my son played in the ACC his entire team did not take pitches no matter the score or inning. They rarely bunted. Their leadoff hitter even swung/hit first pitches. They did attempt to situational hit behind runners and hit sac flys with runners on third etc, however they pretty much had the green light 24/7..
Okay new found BFFs...opportunity is knocking.
So say you are actually going to get 4 ABs in a game. I read somewhere else here and now can't find it something about your approach to each AB...like maybe one of them you swing for the fence, one you are looking to put the ball in play without over thinking stuff etc. Or something along those lines.
Hitting bottom 1/3 in the order...what's your approach as the game progresses both if you are winning and then if you are losing?
I don't think you can plan every AB in advance and be successful. First off, the game situation is often different every time a batter gets in the box. The game tends to evolve.
As far as "swinging for the fence", a long time ago my son's travel coach told him HR's are "accidents" - it's a line drive that just didn't come down. If you go up trying to hit a HR the odds are you won't be successful. He's hit 3 HR's this year and every one of them has been a surprise - especially the grand slam.
As long as the coach gives my son the "hit away" sign, he's usually working to "hit the ball hard somewhere."
This is very much age and ability dependent. It kills me to see LL age kids taking strikes etc when they should be learning how to swing the bat, no matter the score or inning. If the player's a good hitter at the HS level my strategy is to swing hard and often, no matter the score, no thinking involved.
As the Dad of a pitcher, I want to thank all of you hitter Dads for wanting to always hit the ball. 
Sometimes the pitcher ain't on. Take advantage of it.
I agree. I think it's a really bad idea. Ideally, a batter would be unconscious of what at-bat it was. Amnesia, except a memory of the pitcher's tendencies.
I've never heard of such an approach: At-bat specific planning.
The goal every time a hitter comes up to the plate should be to have a quality at bat.
BTW, is this question for your son or in regards to your observations of other players?
Well it was for him, but when reading your response, some other kids kinda popped into my head.
This is very much age and ability dependent. It kills me to see LL age kids taking strikes etc when they should be learning how to swing the bat, no matter the score or inning. If the player's a good hitter at the HS level my strategy is to swing hard and often, no matter the score, no thinking involved.
When my son played in the ACC his entire team did not take pitches no matter the score or inning. They rarely bunted. Their leadoff hitter even swung/hit first pitches. They did attempt to situational hit behind runners and hit sac flys with runners on third etc, however they pretty much had the green light 24/7..
"If the player's a good hitter at the HS level my strategy is to swing hard and often, no matter the score, no thinking involved."
I LOVE THIS. But he has a hitting coach who coached at the pro level and has him thinking a little too much for a 16 year old. I guess when you get little to none ABs you better dispense with the strategy and just swing.
I've never heard of such an approach: At-bat specific planning.
The goal every time a hitter comes up to the plate should be to have a quality at bat.
And I thought the goal was to hit the ball. There was a kid last night who struck out 3 times, but all 3 registered as QABs on gamechanger. Oy vey.
I've never heard of such an approach: At-bat specific planning.
The goal every time a hitter comes up to the plate should be to have a quality at bat.
What do you define as a quality at-bat? Hitting the ball hard, helping the team out by hitting behind the runner, etc?
I've never heard of such an approach: At-bat specific planning.
The goal every time a hitter comes up to the plate should be to have a quality at bat.
And I thought the goal was to hit the ball. There was a kid last night who struck out 3 times, but all 3 registered as QABs on gamechanger. Oy vey.
maybe it was the number of pitches it took for him to K
As a HS coach I understood the strengths of my hitters. The one's in the line up and the one's not in the line up. Some coaches have a team approach at the plate. They attempt to run up pitch counts. They routinely take on 0-0 1-0 2-0 3-0 3-1 counts. Some coaches are big on situational hitting. Runner on 1st no outs will be a totally different approach than runner on 2nd no outs. In scenario 1 they are either in sac mode, drag mode, take and see until you are either in a hitter's count, or take and see if you can get a good pitch to run on, hit and run on, run and hit on.
My approach as a HS coach was to teach my kids how to actually hit. I always believed that the more you had in your head that had nothing to do with actually driving the baseball, the less success you were going to have driving the baseball. I figured if I could maximize their potential to actually hit some college coach could use that abiltiy the way he saw fit.
Over thinking the game, over coaching the game. Know your strength's when you get in the box. Know the pitcher's strength's when you get in the box. Are you watching the game? Are you communicating with the other hitters? Are you looking for what you want or what you are going to get? Is the pitcher working fastball's away and breaking stuff in the zone? Can he command his breaking stuff? All of this is information that is readily available by the second at bat of the game. And for some in the first at bat of the game.
I asked one college coach why he had his team take so many pitches. Why they routinely took pitches in hitters counts. He said the whole goal was to drive up pitch counts and get in the bull pen early. I said "You can get in the bull pen early scoring no runs by driving up a pitch count. And you can get in the bull pen early with some runs by making the pitcher pay for falling behind in counts."
HS hitters need to learn how to hit before they learn how to situational hit. Your asking a kid to hit behind a runner and he is just trying to square a ball up. Personally my opinion is you should step in the box with one thing on your mind. And that is getting a good pitch to P iss on. And when you get a hitters count be ready to unload. Not standing there hoping you walk. Not standing their surprised you got a grooved fb over the heart on a 2-0 pitch. Or standing there with a take sign on a 3-1 pitch over the heart. So now your in a 3-2 count and he puts you away on a slider.
So my answer to you is go up there each at bat with one goal. Mash. Once you can mash what you should be able to mash, it will all clear up for you.
I didn't read all of Coach May's post because I know already it's great. When I have more time I will get to reading it but right now I just want to say the overall goal is to hit the ball hard every time up.
You accomplish this by....
1. Knowing the strike zone
2. Pay attention to how the umps is calling balls / strikes
3. Recognize fastballs early in the zone
4. Recognize breaking pitches and to lay off them early in the count
5. Be aggressive on fastballs in the zone
6. Know how to cover the plate and hit to all fields
7. NEVER take borderline pitches with 2 strikes
8. Be able to foul off pitches with 2 strikes to get a better pitch to hit
You do those things (and the ones I'm forgetting to put down because I'm in a hurry) then you will have successful at bats.
And when you get a hitters count be ready to unload. Not standing there hoping you walk. Not standing their surprised you got a grooved fb over the heart on a 2-0 pitch. Or standing there with a take sign on a 3-1 pitch over the heart. So now your in a 3-2 count and he puts you away on a slider.
So my answer to you is go up there each at bat with one goal. Mash. Once you can mash what you should be able to mash, it will all clear up for you.
Agree 100%. I would add: knowing which pitches you can mash. Just because it's a strike doesn't mean it's a pitch you can drive. 2019Son's coach on 2-0 or 3-1 counts will say"Double or a take!" -- in other words, be ready to unload, but if it's on the black knee-high, don't get yourself out.
In terms of QAB, I think the OP is referring to the ridiculousness of GameChanger's definition. Here's an example: runner on third, one or zero outs. A line drive RBI single on the first pitch is NOT a QAB according to GameChanger. A medium distance fly ball on the first pitch that scores the runner (sac fly) IS a QAB. It's bizarre.
That's what I meant by saying "once you can mash what you should be able to mash." QAB- The feel good doctrine of baseball. Don't be upset you were 0-4. Three of your ab's were QAB's. Jimmy was 2-4 but he hooked around a pitch and blooped in a lucky single. He got another hit scored a hit that was really an error. And he had 2 ab's that were not QAB's. So really you had a better game at the plate than he did.
The average is important if you have a good average. It is meaningless if you don't. It then becomes all about QAB's. Once you put in a players head that the only thing that matters is going up there and having a QAB then the goal is to have a QAB. Push up the pitch count. Foul off some pitches. Work the count. Find a way son get that QAB!
Now of course this is just my opinion. The only QAB is the one that either finds you standing on a base without an out recroded, touching all the bases, brings in someone for a run, moves a runner into scoring position with your ab and now it's just one out. Outside of that it is a non productive out and I am not going to reward you with the QAB trophy.
I think it's a bit of strawman argument to rail against QABs. I've used Gamechanger for years and I don't know and don't care how it calculates QABs, and I've never heard a coach or anybody else even mention them, much less praise kids for them or tell them that is their goal.
But I do think many coaches recognize a QAB that passes an eye test and is worthy of praise. For example, 2 teams are locked in a 0-0 pitcher's duel. Both teams still have their starters in and their pitch counts are climbing. Bottom six, your lead-off batter makes a one pitch out. Second hitter, who is also your pitcher, makes another one pitch out on a bang-bang play. Third hitter comes up and takes a strike just to give the pitcher a chance to catch his breath. Takes a pitch 6 inches off the black for another strike. Then battles for another 8 or 10 pitches until he hits a screamer at F5 who only catches it because his glove happened to get in the way.
I'd call that a QAB and tell the kid he did a great job. If the baseball gods feel like dispensing justice that day, they'll give him a base hit on swinging bunt or a dinker next time up.
It's called an opinion just like what you posted. It's my opinion that the goal when you step in the box is to produce what I listed above as productive. I don't want my guys goal to be to see how many pitches they can take, create by fouling off pitches, etc. Now that is my opinion. If you want to tell a kid great job and it's a QAB fine. Then you will be able to say you have actually heard someone mention them and praise them for it.
I went an pulled this out of my coaching bag. Given to me by a well respected college coach who I have agreed with many times and disagreed with a few times. This is one of those cases. While having a discussion during break at his camp this summer about this very topic I asked him what in your opinion constitutes a QAB. This is what he produced.
1- Executing a hit/run - SAC bunt - SAC-drag/ Squeeze
2- Executing a bunt for a hit.
3- Taking a BB/HBP or CI
4- Moving a runner from 2nd to 3rd with 0 outs.
5- Driving in a run from 3rd base with less than 2 outs
6- Any RBI (Sac Fly, 2 out RBI, etc)
7- All hard hit balls on the line or on the ground (Ex- All base hits are not QAB's- Bloop hits - We want hard contact.
8- 8 pitch at bats
9- When you can see 4 or more pitches after you are down 0-2 in the count.
I asked Coach where he got this from and he stated from a good coaching friend that has had success in the SEC.
So I said you are serious about this right? Yep. I said you want to start from #9 and work our way up? He said sure. So Joey gets in the box with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs. Your down 2 late. He takes the first two cock shots right down the gut and get's down 0-2. He then swings at a CB out of the zone and fouls it off. He then takes a FB way off the plate. He then swings at another CB way out of the zone and fouls that off. And then he watches a FB down the gut for strike 3. He saw 4 pitches after he was down 0-2. But he gets a QAB? Awesome dude. You want to move on to #8?
He calls me about five names I can't print here and says "Come on I'm not paying you to talk S___! We got kids waiting on us.
I'm going to slightly disagree with Coach May and say that QAB do have a place in baseball. But I do wholeheartedly agree that they shouldn't be used to create false sense of accomplishment. A QAB should be something that is done to help the team overall succeed. Hitting behind the runner to move him from 2nd to 3rd should be a QAB but I also don't think it should be the goal while going up to the plate. If that is your goal going up to the plate then why in the world are you hitting? Your goal at the plate is to keep the rally going by hitting the ball as hard as you can. A screaming one hopper to the left side is more productive than an intentional 5 hopper hit exactly to the 2B baseman. But still at the end of the day something good transpired - the runner moved up 90 feet. It's not the overall goal we wanted but it was positive.
I'm a huge believer of celebrating success but I also want it to be real success and not make believe. In the example Coach May gave about the kid watching 2 cock shots and then work the count is not a QAB. I do not want my guys to give up opportunities by trying to work counts or freezing on pitches by thinking. If I have a kid who takes 2 cockshots and then does end up doing something like this I'm not going to be happy. He shouldn't be happy. But we get to that high standard of not accepting mediocrity by teaching our kids what is good and what isn't good. I'm going to teach what I accept is a QAB but I'm not going to use it to create false sense of accomplishment. I will use it to teach how we can win as a team if we end up not mashing the ball.
If Coach May wants to take QAB and flush them down the toilet then I agree completely with that because I know he's going to teach his guys what is success to him. But if you're creating false sense of accomplishment through QAB then you better get ready for a long season.
Coach you said it way better than I could. I just call those other instances productive outs. O outs hitting behind the runner moving him to 3rd. That's a productive out. But is it a QAB if its your 3 hole masher who got a grooved FB and he squibs it to the 2B? Not in my book. You had a QAB in that situation if you freaking mash it in the gap. You had a productive out if you move him. But we both know neither one of us is high fiving over it. If the hitter is he aint no hitter. I can tell him good job all day long. But he knows the truth so why not just be honest about it?
It's interesting that informed baseball people do not agree on what defines a quality at-bat. For what it's worth, I think this is one of the primary reasons so many young hitters are confused at the plate: For years they've been coached to focus on A or B or C or D or ... and on and on and on.
I have found, in trying to get past the noise, that accomplished hitters have figured out something that many others have not: You cannot control the outcome!
And given that, you must control what you CAN control:
Yes, there are a thousand other things involved ... but if a hitter does these things, he's had a quality at bat. Even if he goes 0 for 5!
Because in in this game of inches, he HAS TO be able to accept that he cannot control where the ball goes, or where the fielders are playing him.
Sometimes screaming liners are hit right at outfielders.
(and in my definition, QAB has nothing to do with situational hitting or running up pitch counts).
Originally Posted by coach2709:
I'm going to slightly disagree with Coach May and say that QAB do have a place in baseball. But I do wholeheartedly agree that they shouldn't be used to create false sense of accomplishment. A QAB should be something that is done to help the team overall succeed. …
I think the problem comes in the confusion between a “QUALITY” at bat as opposed to a “PRODUCTIVE” at bat. The former is generally something that’s used as a positive reinforcement to mitigate a batter’s failure to get hits, while the latter is generally used to show how an at bat contributed to the team effort.
For that reason I’ve always been more in favor of Clint Hurdle’s “Productive at bats” than “QABs”.
You can call them strawberry shortcakes if you want. End of the day the only people who need to know what exactly is good and bad are the players. If you teach them what you want, how to execute it, understand if it's good or bad and react accordingly then you got what you wanted. Who cares if you call it QAB, productive at bats or strawberry shortcakes?
Originally Posted by coach2709:
You can call them strawberry shortcakes if you want. End of the day the only people who need to know what exactly is good and bad are the players. If you teach them what you want, how to execute it, understand if it's good or bad and react accordingly then you got what you wanted. Who cares if you call it QAB, productive at bats or strawberry shortcakes?
So then explain what the purpose of whatever it is you want to call it is. Is it to make the players feel better about going 0-4 when they hit the ball hard, or show them they did something productive to help the team put runs on the board? That’s why I like calling them “PRODUCTIVE” rather than “QUALITY” at bats.
One needs to go no further than read this thread to see just how confusing the term QAB is and how it changes from person to person. So unless your players are only going to be coached by you, doesn’t it just make sense to at least try to use a common language? The one thing about the old style slash stats that makes them so easily understood whether the players are in LL to the ML, is that they are defined exactly the same way everywhere, and have been such for over 100 years.
Ask any hitter what his BA is and he’ll not only tell you, you’ll know it was computed the same way any other hitter’s BA was. Try doing that with QABs, even with players on the same team and see what you get. Chances are what’s gonna happen is just was jp24 says will happen, you’ll see confusion.
I’m guessing that one day some well-meaning youth coach was feeling bad because his young charges weren’t understanding that baseball is a game of failure very well, and dreamed up the QAB in an effort to take some of the sting out of a poor game. If he could get them to focus on the positives rather than the negatives, he’d have a much more relaxed group of kids. And that’s OK, as long as we’re talking about not just physically immature but mentally immature kids, but sooner or later players have to come to grips with the fact that they’ll fail much more often than succeed in the game.
And that’s when the conversation should move from feeling good about failure, to one of producing for the team.
I've got to believe that very few HS coaches track and record QABs, and that it's mainly a thing where parents track them on Gamechanger.
Stats: "Ask any hitter what his BA is and he’ll not only tell you."
And that, my friend, has ended way too many a career early.
I've got to believe that very few HS coaches track and record QABs, and that it's mainly a thing where parents track them on Gamechanger.
Freddy - just because Gamechanger has that silly QAB stat does not mean it's meaningless. You are right. Too few HS coaches understand, let alone track, QAB.
Simple question: Runners on second and third. Two out. Batter drives a screaming line drive right at the right fielder. Inning over.
Was that a QAB? You by gosh better hope the batter and his coach think so.
Because it's BASEBALL.
Question:
How many ways to score a run from 3b with less than 2 outs.
Runs win games - Right!!!
"get your runner to 3b as soon as possible"
When I coached the SR Legion team, while at home plate with the umpire. "I asked is there a 10 run rule in this game".
The opposing coach was "frozen" in appearance.
When you coach, you need to have fun and stay "loose". Same as hitting, pitching, fielding.
Bob
Great post Bob.
Thank you. as Tom Sellick in "Mr Baseball".
Baseball is fun!!
Originally Posted by jp24:
And that, my friend, has ended way too many a career early.
I suspect that’s another baseball myth propagated by people who believe there are many players who think about nothing other than their personal stats. I’ve been around for a heck of a long time and seen a heck of a lot of players, but I’ve never seen one that had his career ended because of that. Granted I haven’t seen all players so I’m sure there might be some, but after getting to know Dustin Pedroia, who’s obsessed with his own slash stats, I’ve come to understand that there’s something other than just being overly interested in one’s BA that causes careers to end. 
Originally Posted by Consultant:
Question:
How many ways to score a run from 3b with less than 2 outs.
Runs win games - Right!!!
"get your runner to 3b as soon as possible"
When I coached the SR Legion team, while at home plate with the umpire. "I asked is there a 10 run rule in this game".
The opposing coach was "frozen" in appearance.
When you coach, you need to have fun and stay "loose". Same as hitting, pitching, fielding.
That’s pretty much the typical thinking, but I sure don’t agree with it. To me a batter has to reach 1st, 2nd, and 3rd bases safely before he even has the opportunity to score, and a run scoring with less than 2 outs is still only worth the same thing as a run scored with 2 outs. It’s much the same as a score in golf. One is only asked to write down a number, not draw a picture and write an explanation.
Is this a QAB? According to GC you can go to the plate without a bat and get a QAB
Kid's at bat went like this
Watched ball1
Watched strike 1
Watched ball 2
Watched ball 3
Yikes!!! Watched strike 2 with a 3-1 count.
Stuck out swinging
Got credit for a QAB
That to me was quite the opposite.
The end result. "NO RUN SCORED"!
Swing the bat, "the hitter swinging can make something happen"!
You will get ONE good pitch each time at bat
BOB
Is this a QAB? According to GC you can go to the plate without a bat and get a QAB
Kid's at bat went like this
Watched ball1
Watched strike 1
Watched ball 2
Watched ball 3
Yikes!!! Watched strike 2 with a 3-1 count.
Stuck out swinging
Got credit for a QAB
That to me was quite the opposite.
..and why I switched my QAB parameters last year from 6-pitch to 7-pitch AB.
