hitting with guys on base

Sounds to me that becoming aggressive at the plate would help---too many called third strikes and walks

You very well may already be doing this or something like it, but practicing pressure situations in practice may help. For example (depending on the number of players on your team) divide your team into 4 offensive groups. Set up two situations, runner on second 2 outs and runner on 3rd 1 out. Off a live pitcher, or off a coach have a competition between the 4 groups to see who can score the most runs. Once your half innings are over in each situation, that group is done and you move on to the next one.

Kids really enjoy the competition and it is difficult to ask them to perform under pressure situations in games if they are rarely put in them in practice.

Hope that helps.

Must be nice to have played three games already. We start practice Monday and we're supposed to get 6 inches of snow on Saturday. Time to get creative!

we do similar things, give points for executing sac bunts, hit & runs, etc. guess we just have to keep working at it.

It sounds like your club does a good job of keeping pressure on their pitcher with 20 BBs over 3 games and a 6 rpg average.
Have you considered what your players are doing in that two strike situation? What is their mental approach here? Are they giving in at all?
Have they found what works best for them, by this I mean are they shortening their stroke, choking up on the bat for better control to put the ball in play. If I recall correctly most called third strikes are usually on the outer third of the plate.
Use short, soft toss and BP to work on two strike swings.
Personally I like the idea of having their starter throw a lot of pitches. Out of curiosity exactly how many of your outs so far have been called third strikes.
To work on two strike situations, I like the 20 drill myself. It teaches strike zone, aggressiveness and attitude. Set a pitching screen 45 feet out and have a pitcher throw a blend of FB CU CV with the count 3-2. Score 1 point for the hitter for each hard hit ball or BB. The pitcher scores a point for each strike or weak hit ball. First to 20 wins.
Weaknesses can be be spotted and challenged to make the hitter better in this situation. Good luck.

We start our bp like this. Groups of four hitting. Lead off hitter starts it off. He gets down a couple sac bunts. Then he gets down a couple of drag bunts. Then he gets 10 cuts. Then he gets an ab and then he goes to first base to run. #2 hitter has to sac him over on the first strike he sees. Then the runner returns to first base. Then we hit and run. Then the runner goes to second base and the hitter has to score him from second. Then the runner goes to third base and we safety squeeze. Then actual squeeze. Then score him from 3b. At this time the hitter gets 10 cuts and replaces the other runner and we do it all over again. The defense gets good game situation work and the runners get to work on base running as we are working on situational hitting. Its good conditioning as well. This has worked well for us. We take this type of bp at least once a week once the season starts and its the only type of bp we do before the season begins.

Another thing to consider is that baseball is in many instances a game of chance. You may hit a screamer right at someone, then next time up hit a bloop double. So it may be that the dice just haven't rolled in your teams favor yet. If you guys stay as patient at the plate as it sounds like you have been, you'll have guys on base all day and those two out hits will start to fall. As far as the called third strikes, I have found that when my guys are getting rung up, it is because they are guessing.
I can't say don't worry about it because I know I would feel the same way you do if I were in that situation, so keep preaching discipline at the plate and working on those situations in practice.

Coach, we run simmilar drills to those mentioned already. I have tried different "awards" though and each team seems to respond differently. Things I've tried have been, bazooka gum, extra swings, avioding punishment, choosing teams, all seem to have different levels of pressure built in, but it's always specific to that year.

That being said, you might just of had 26 extra guys on base that shouldn't have been there, or didn't need to be there, the baseball gods are funny that way....

What age group?

Hitters should have the same approach with or without runners....

Think about absolutely nothing in the batter's box.....

Anything other than this is handicapping the hitters.......

Batting practice should be about learning how to clear the mind, not cluttering it.....

In my opinion, I wouldn't change a thing right now. Three games does not give you enough data to see a pattern developing (unless you play a 6 or 9 game schedule). Since you are in "big hat" country, I'm thinking your season is 30-40 games, correct?

Wait until you get to 10 games. If you still see lots of called third strikes, then it is time to react. Also, after 10 games, you may see that it is the same 3-4 players who are doing this. Change things up for them, not the rest of the team who isn't going through this same problem.

turnin2,

I can’t help but ask how your hitters are comparing to hitters you’re playing against. After many years of generating all kinds of different stats, I’ve noticed that often what seems to be a problem, is really only normal.

If it’ll help, take a look at:
http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/Batting.pdf
http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/pitching.pdf

Those numbers are for our 1st 4 games, although they’re only scrimmage games.

Scorekeeper,

We're actually outscoring our opponenets by a few, our batting average is about 40 points higher and we're drawing more walks, but hitting a mere 10-46 with RISP!!!! Our team era is 2.46, so we should be killing people!!! We graded BP tonight (not sure how many do this) putting them in different situations and giving bonus cuts as rewards and taking away cuts, and its amazing how they executed with their swings as a "bounty." Just looking for ideas, I am a theif when it comes to picking peoples heads, ask my kids to get better, so I try to as well.

turnin2,

I’m not gonna say your conclusions based on what you’re lookin’ at aren’t true, but I will say that IMHO you’re not lookin’ at nearly enough of the big picture.

The 1st thing is the obsession people seem to have with BA WRISP. To me, that’s as invalid a way to look at something as it is to look at a BA with 2 strikes. There’s far more at work than sometimes meets the eye.

FI, look at http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/turnin2.pdf

Go to page 10 then page 11. To me, I don’t care what a player’s BA is WRISP, I care if he can move runners with his bat. FI, who would you rather have WRISP, a player who hits .300 in that situation, or one who moves the runners 50% of the time?

Why should you be winning games just because the team ERA is 2.46? What’s the TRA(Total Run Average)? Mebbe the problem isn’t with the hitting but with a poor defense.

I’m not gonna try to say my stats are the best, but I will say that perhaps there are some things I track that you might get your people to tract too. It may give you a better view of the big picture. I’ll run through a few just to show you what I mean.

Page 2. That one intrigues me because it gets rid of the dependence on BA.
Page 3. That one might show you where there’s a production problem.
Page 4. Might show you things aren’t always as they appear.
Page 5. Takes more into consideration than whether or not a player comes up WRISP.
Page 6. Like page 3, can show a production problem by BPOS.
Page 7. Another way to look at how runs are generated.
Page 8. Like page 3 and 6. May show a hole in th elineup.
Page 14&15. Tells a lot more about the P’s than flat ol numbers.
Page 18. When used with page 14 can give you an indication why P’s are having probs.
Page 20. Shows you which P might be the one you want in specific situations.
Page 22&23. Might just tell you that the problem isn’t in the hitting at all.
Page 24. Along with 22 and 23, should show you a lot about how your P’s are comparing.
Page 25. This could show some scary things.
Page 27. Might tell the difference between working P’s or working fielders.
Page 29. Always nice to know WHIP.
Page 31. Mebbe you can find a correlation between your P’s and the field.
Page 33%35. This is what you beat your P’s over the head with.
Page 37. Might show you either the P’s are easing up or the wrong P’s are getting called.
Page 41. Same as 37.
Page 42. Shows how important that 1st pitch is.
Page 44. Doesn’t leave any room for error about what’s going on.
Page 50. Shows you who is getting the ball over the plate.
Page 54. Might make you consider what pitches are being called.
Page 61&63. Might make you give P’s more BP time from the stretch.
Page 65. Shows another way to look at what’s goin on with the P’s.

turnin2,

You can try a couple of things:

1) Take a full round of BP with 2 strikes. FOr every strike taken, give some sort of punishment...50 crunches, etc.

2) Work on situational hitting more. Hit and run, runner on 2B with no outs (move him over to 3B), runner on 3B with IF playing back less than 2 outs (hit hard GB in middle of the field = worse case scenario), runner on 3B with IF playing in less than 2 outs (hit ball through the IF or a flyball to score the runner)

3) Take another round of BP where they start off with a 0-0 count and work it to a conclusion. Talk them through their thought process (i.e. why did you take that 2-0 belt high FB).

What you do not want is them thinking inside the batter's box but preparing for their AB in the on deck circle and making each AB productive.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
1) Take a full round of BP with 2 strikes. FOr every strike taken, give some sort of punishment...50 crunches, etc.

What you do not want is them thinking inside the batter's box but preparing for their AB in the on deck circle and making each AB productive.

This is just my philosophy, but I sure hate to see punishment used as a teaching aide.

Assuming that every thing learned in practice transfers to some degree to games, I’d think that what you’d be teaching is to never take a borderline pitch. I don’t think that’s something I’d want to instill in all of my hitters.

But I sure do agree that the last thing you want a player to do is to suffer paralysis by analysis in the batter’s box.

scorekeeper


Borderline pitches are to be aggressively attacked---as in foul them off

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Borderline pitches are to be aggressively attacked---as in foul them off

I don’t have any trouble accepting that for great or even very good hitters. I also have no trouble trying to develop every player into being a better hitter than they are, because frankly, no HS hitter can’t be improved a great deal. I wasn’t trying to comment on what anyone should do with borderline pitches as much as trying to say that I’ve never found punishment to be the most effective way to teach kids.

Where I have trouble with things like this, is when people just throw statements like that out without consideration that not every HS hitter, or even every HS starter has the capacity to do it.

Likely, you guys who are longtime coaches, just accept that as a matter of fact and don’t bother to mention it, but for guys like me, bells and whistle start goin’ off. That’s why I pretty much stay away from the Tips forum, but the topic “hitting with guys on base” caught my attention.

As I said before, IMHO, before one “assumes” a course of action, there are a lot of other things beside BAWRISP, ERA, or BA that really need to be looked at. They may or may not add any insight, but then again they might. In either case, just suddenly doing something without a little bit of thought seems silly to me.

FI, if it really is the defense’s fault, or that the P’s somehow aren’t getting the job done, its kind of counterproductive to spend a lot of time on situational hitting and punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
Assuming that every thing learned in practice transfers to some degree to games, I’d think that what you’d be teaching is to never take a borderline pitch. I don’t think that’s something I’d want to instill in all of my hitters.

But I sure do agree that the last thing you want a player to do is to suffer paralysis by analysis in the batter’s box.

Then reward them for swinging at 2 strike pitches aggressively. Say they start with 5000 crunches as a team. For every time they execute with 2 strikes (each pitch), they knock 50 off the total. Whatever.

Either way, a behavior needs to be changed. Use positive or negative reinforcement. Who cares? Just change the behavior. I will bet when they get to college, their coach won't be worried about punishing them with crunches, sprints, miles, etc.

With regard to borderline pitches...I teach my 13U team to know the strike zone and adjust it for each umpire. I woul drather them swing at a borderline pitch with 2 strikes than leave their fate in an umpire calling the pitch a strike.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Then reward them for swinging at 2 strike pitches aggressively. Say they start with 5000 crunches as a team. For every time they execute with 2 strikes (each pitch), they knock 50 off the total. Whatever.

Either way, a behavior needs to be changed. Use positive or negative reinforcement. Who cares? Just change the behavior. I will bet when they get to college, their coach won't be worried about punishing them with crunches, sprints, miles, etc.
On the behavior thing, I’m not trying to indict anyone about how they go about modifying behavior in their students/players. I’m just saying that I don’t believe punishment is the best way to effect long term behavior modification.

As for what college coaches might do, just because they might act a certain way, it doesn’t make it right. Even if it works in some cases, its impossible for a one way fits all philosophy to work when it comes to human beings. Now it might work for a college coach because he can just cut a player who won’t do things his way, but that still doesn’t make it the best way, only the most expedient.

With regard to borderline pitches...I teach my 13U team to know the strike zone and adjust it for each umpire. I woul drather them swing at a borderline pitch with 2 strikes than leave their fate in an umpire calling the pitch a strike.
That’s a sensible philosophy, and one I find no fault with.

Are you saying every one of the 13YOs on your team is equally adept at executing the way you want them too?

That’s where I have problems with punishment. Who’s the one making the determination that a pitch is borderline? If you had QuesTec available to teach the strike zone, that’s different, but other than that, where a pitch is pretty arbitrary, subjective, and will change depending on who’s doin’ it.

But I’m not trying to impose my thoughts on anyone! Y’all can coach however ya want, including Tasers to the nads. (just kidding)

All I’m trying to say is, I’ve found that just because someone thinks they’ve identified a problem in baseball, that doesn’t mean its so. Rather than just being someone who reacts to what they believe is true, I’d rather see a little more time taken to investigate other options, and perhaps something else being wrong causing the perceived problem.

Basically that where the “old timers” and Saber guys differ. The gap is narrowing, but its still gonna take a long time for everyone to accept that it is possible to find out a lot of meaningful information with stats.

No, not all of my 13U players are equally adept at executing. However, the all possess the ability to judge a strike.

We empower the BP pitcher (a coach) to call balls and strikes. That part really isn't that difficult. On a borderline pitch, we let them know it was a borderline pitch. If they take 2 borderline pitches in a 2 strike drill, we call them out. If you give an umpire 2 shots to punch you out on 2 close pitches, you WILL get called out on one of them. Again, don't give the umpire the opportunity to make a mistake.

FWIW, I am not an advocate of simply putting the ball in play with 2 strikes. As a matter of fact, I think that is a very simplistic and narrowsighted philosophy. We focus on putting good swings on good pitches and making productive outs.

Our goal is to prepare them for HS, college and possibly beyond. We sometimes use punishment as a motivator. However, we equally use positives as motivators as well. We are trying to get them used to every aspect of playing at a higher level...however, no tazers to the nads.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
No, not all of my 13U players are equally adept at executing. However, the all possess the ability to judge a strike.
Trust me, I’m pretty sure you have things in the proper context, but I have to quote this article in the May TSN.

SCOUTING REPORT
Josh Barfield, 2B, Indians

OFFENSE: Has some power to all fields. Learning to wait for mistake pitches. Likes the ball out over the plate, where he can drive it to the gaps for doubles. Spin recognition and knowledge of the strike zone have improved.

I couldn’t help but remember that quote, and the thought came to my mind about how many dads, coaches, or players go on and on about how much they, their kids, or their players know about the strike zone, and here we have what is 1st and foremost a ML player, and supposedly a very highly respected one, who improved in that area. So how much could an 8-20YO amateur really know about the strike zone as a hitter?

Like I said, I’m pretty sure you aren’t trying to compare you players knowledge of the zone to Josh Barfield or any other ML player, but there are those who actually believe its possible.

We empower the BP pitcher (a coach) to call balls and strikes. That part really isn't that difficult. On a borderline pitch, we let them know it was a borderline pitch. If they take 2 borderline pitches in a 2 strike drill, we call them out. If you give an umpire 2 shots to punch you out on 2 close pitches, you WILL get called out on one of them. Again, don't give the umpire the opportunity to make a mistake.
If the BP P can’t determine what a borderline pitch is, things would be pretty bad.

This can be another one of those complicated tissues. If the P is all over the place, chances are he’s not gonna be getting a lot of borderline calls. But although that should be something the batter is aware of, I don’t think anyone would want him just taking a a close pitch betting that that’s the one the ump wouldn’t call.

FWIW, I am not an advocate of simply putting the ball in play with 2 strikes. As a matter of fact, I think that is a very simplistic and narrowsighted philosophy. We focus on putting good swings on good pitches and making productive outs.

Heck, that could be a thread all on it own! In general, I believe like you, that the batter should be trying his best to be discriminating, but the fact is, just putting the ball in play does at least present opportunities. Like the old saying goes, you never know what’s gonna happen if you put the ball in play, but at least you’ve created the opportunity for something good to happen to you.

Our goal is to prepare them for HS, college and possibly beyond. We sometimes use punishment as a motivator. However, we equally use positives as motivators as well. We are trying to get them used to every aspect of playing at a higher level...however, no tazers to the nads.



Its really not my place to criticize anyone’s philosophy, especially when I’m not in the position to judge it for myself by personal observation. And to tell the truth, I haven’t always been against punishment as a teaching aid. But, as I’ve gotten older and come into contact with more and more people who have various degrees of success using varying degrees of methods, punishment in any form is very much frowned on as a way to develop skills.

Its sometimes a necessary way to get a desired behavior, but a poor way to encourage proper exhibition of skills or to teach physical skills. But like I said, that’s only my philosophy, not an indictment on anyone who teaches the way they feel is most effective, beneficial, and efficient.

I like to tell this story about how as a catcher, I was taught to behave a certain way.

When I converted to catching, I was in HS. I had all the tools necessary, including an extraordinary arm, but I still had the goofy little league thing with the fake throws and bluffing.

My HS coach kept telling me no to fake, and a pro team I worked out with had a old guy who’d caught back in the 20’s would tell me the same thing. One day during a game, this was in 1963 BTW, I’d been doing the same thing and the coach was hollering at me to the point of apoplexy. The old guy was there watching the game, and I saw him go over to our bench and say something to the coach.

A couple of pitches later, I did the unforgivable. There was a runner on 1st and I was thinking hard about trying to keep him close. One pitch I caught, then jumped up like I was gonna throw behind the runner, but as a cocked my arm to fake the throw, I stepped in the hole the LHB’s had made, and tripped. As I went down, my hand hit the ground and the ball came out allowing the runner to make it to 2nd.

I heard my coach all time out, and when he headed for the plate, I knew I was in for another screaming session, but he fooled me. He came over to me with a bat in his hand, and I had on one of those old time masks with one bar and weighing about 30 pounds.

To my surprise, he wasn’t all red faced and mad, and he walked up mad put his arm around my shoulder and turned me away from the crowd. Then he asked me if I knew what I’d done wrong, and of course I said “Yes Coach!” Then he gave me a shot, right on the bar with barrel end of the bat, that literally rang my chimes. As he was walking away, I heard him say that was so I wouldn’t forget, and I never, ever did.

From then on, if I cocked my arm, everybody knew there was gonna be a throw, and there was. Those old guys definitely knew how to get your attention!