Hitting your spots

I don't have a clue what % is good but even the greatest pitcher can not do it every time.
The typ of pitcher you are can influence the % a lot. I would guess at 50-60% for a typical pitcher but a coach pulling guys doing well is out of it. Lots of pitchers who rely on CBs can have lower accuracy but get good batters cahsing out of the zone pitches.

I'm with bhd on this. If the pros could do it every time, there would be lot less hits. If it were that easy for the pros, Maddux wouldn't have stood out like he has for so many years.

Hey hows the East coast doing ?

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
I know this is the goal, but to pull a kid who is doing well (getting outs) just because he missed his spot several times in an inning.

Teaching pitchers to fear getting pulled for something they cannot achieve is a recipe for failure, IMHO.

Watch a pro game and keep track. See how many times the catcher sets up on one side and the pitch is to the other. Or how many times the pitch goes in the dirt well in front of the catcher. Or sails to one side. Or plunks the batter. Or goes over the catcher's head.

Even the MLB'er's miss a significant percentage.

Only an idiot would expect any pitcher to hit his spots "every pitch".

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
My sons, therefore mine too, this season has lead me to this question:

17/18 years olds – how accurate should they really be?

My son’s current coach has 5 pitching zones and EXPECTS his pitchers to be able to locate all pitches in those zones every pitch. When they miss, he can get very unpleasant. Is this an unreasonable expectation for 17/18 years olds? I know this is the goal, but to pull a kid who is doing well (getting outs) just because he missed his spot several times in an inning.

My view was formed by a description I heard a AAA catcher give. He said that when he caught a low level pitcher, they were trying to locate and did it about half the time. The mid level guys were able to a lot more, and the guys ready for the big league were hitting their spots nearly all the time. I just don’t know any 17/18 who are major league ready.

Most pros will admit that they only hit their spots 80 to 90 percent of the time. When they get away with it, it's due to luck and/or great movement.

Similarly, if you talk to most good hitters they will expect to see 1 mistake in 5 or 6 pitches. That's why they like to work the count up to 3-2 (and beyond). That increases the odds they will see a mistake (or two).

To see this in action, just watch to see how many times the catcher in a pro game has to move his glove more than 3 inches on fastballs or sliders. Curves are different.

I would hope a HS pitcher could hit his spots at least 50 percent of the time and would be thrilled if he hit his spots 75 percent of the time.

Of course, it depends on the type of pitcher. Power pitchers can get away with being wilder in HS. Finesse pitchers have to do a better job of hitting their spots.

thepainguy is talking like the ESPN commercial again.

Watch a game on TV. Watch the catchers set up. Watch the actual pitch location.

It is under 50%.

tpg

quote:

I would hope a HS pitcher could hit his spots at least 50 percent of the time and would be thrilled if he hit his spots 75 percent of the time.

I have coached varsity pitchers for six years and have never had a pitcher sniff hitting his spots 75% of the time, nor have I coached against anyone who hit their spots 75% of the time.

If a HS pitcher can put the ball on one half of the plate or another at roughly knee high he is doing a good job...hitting tight spots is very rare.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

Most pros will admit that they only hit their spots 80 to 90 percent of the time. When they get away with it, it's due to luck and/or great movement.

80 to 90%?

Huh?

To be perfectly honest... I think a lot of it has to do with how fine the zones are.

Example: I want to throw an inside fastball. Lets say the count is 0-1. I throw 2-seem/sinking fastballs 95% of the time. My "hitting a spot" is as long as the ball ends up dang close to the inside corner or more inside. (When I work with kids... yes I work with kids my own age... I say "miss in or miss away, just don't miss middle") If the pitch runs inside and is a ball... I still hit my spot and my goal of an inside fastball was achieved. With a 2-seem, lots of people will swing on an inside fastball too inside due to movement. Now it changes if the count is 2-1 or something. I may be more concerned with throwing a strike. This is kind of confusing... but to be perfeclty honest... with this philosophy... I do it right about 70% (on a good day) of the time. If I want an inside fastball I'm going to miss inside. If I want it up, I'm going to miss up. If I want it outside... etc. This has been a very good and successful method. Every pitch has a purpose. A pitch that misses an outside locaction and ends up too far outside helps set up an inside pitch. A kid should not be pulled unless his missing spots is on 0-2 pitches. THAT is frustrating when an 0-2 high fastball is right down the gut... and usually that once or twice won't hurt a pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
thepainguy is talking like the ESPN commercial again.

Watch a game on TV. Watch the catchers set up. Watch the actual pitch location.

It is under 50%.

First, it will vary depending on the type of pitcher. Finesse pitchers (e.g. Moyer, Maddux, Suppan) will tend to be much more accurate.

Second, you have to ignore curveballs (watch the catcher bump his glove on the ground). While you can generally control whether they are inside or out, in general all you are trying to do is keep them down. Ideally, that means landing them on or just behind the plate.

obrady

quote:

My sons, therefore mine too, this season has lead me to this question:

17/18 years olds – how accurate should they really be?

I thought about your original question, and IMO if a HS pitcher can put the ball in the strike zone on the half of the plate that he chooses, and up or down on that half then he is ahead of the curve. Basically the "spots" for a HS pitcher should have the strike zone divided in four, similar to a four square box.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
thepainguy is talking like the ESPN commercial again.

Watch a game on TV. Watch the catchers set up. Watch the actual pitch location.

It is under 50%.

First, it will vary depending on the type of pitcher. Finesse pitchers (e.g. Moyer, Maddux, Suppan) will tend to be much more accurate.

Second, you have to ignore curveballs (watch the catcher bump his glove on the ground). While you can generally control whether they are inside or out, in general all you are trying to do is keep them down. Ideally, that means landing them on or just behind the plate.

Why ignore curveballs? You can generally tell whether the pitcher is trying to get a batter to chase the curve or whether he's trying to throw it over for a strike. Maybe ignore the curveball in situations where the pitcher is trying to get the batter to chase, but you can't ignore the curveball altogether. There are plenty of times during a game where a pitcher is trying to throw the curve to a spot in the strike zone.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Hey hows the East coast doing ?

Sunny and warm. Just looking out my window at the harbour during lunch. One of the "tall ships" is still docked outside my window. Awesome. I'd rather be outside doing some batting practice with my son, though. He needs that.

I agree with Dtiger.

Pitchers purposly throw in the dirt so even though it is ruled a wild pitch if it gets by the catcher it was intentional. With a low ball count and 1or 2 strikes you try to stay out of the strike zone. Usually a CB that is going to move out of the zone. I have said this before that my son's coaches have told him on occassion that if he has 2 strikes on a batter and he throws a strike they will bench him. The point is that a pitcher trying to get that 3rd strike is vulnerable to serving one up trying to throw that 3rd strike.
The CB that is thrown down the middle and then drops off the table is very hard for even a top catcher to set up for. I have seen catchers not catch up to the ball as it breaks down so quickly. I have seen that pitch called a wild pitch and a strike at the same time as the batter chases it and a runner scores from 3rd. One analyst said how can you call a strike a wild pitch ?
I still say that Pro pitchers are doing well to hit their spots 50-60% of the time. A 4 pitch walk shows that the pitcher doesn't always hit his spot even when he needs to.
The use of 4 squares is not a good way to approach control development. It is better to separate the boxes into the areas you need to pich to be successful. Most P coaches start by telling you that you will live at the thighs /knee area.and the most important thing is to be around the zone.

Dm59 I studied at Dal for 4 years so you are in Halifax.
Great city.

I did a study back then on the harbour and the impcat of becoming a deep sea container port. after graduating I stopped there on my way to London to study law at the Inns of Court. My wife and I have meant to take a trip there but haven't got around to it yet.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The point is that a pitcher trying to get that 3rd strike is vulnerable to serving one up trying to throw that 3rd strike.

The point is that a pitcher can miss into the zone just as much as he can miss out of the zone. If he misses, he misses. By definition, he isn't controlling where the ball is going.

Some coaches (not saying you, bbh) advocate throwing the ball down in the dirt or a foot or two off the plate with an 0-2 or even 1-2 count.

I have heard coaches tell catchers to set up 2' off the plate on every 0-2 pitch. They say they want no chance of the batter hitting an 0-2 pitch. I disagree with that philosophy. If you're going to do that, heck, just roll the ball to the plate.

But then I also disagree with using a curve on every 0-2 count. Too predicatable.

Give them something close enough to the zone to swing at. If you miss, you miss. Sometimes you miss away, sometimes you miss in. A pitcher can't be on the mound running scared...

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Why ignore curveballs? You can generally tell whether the pitcher is trying to get a batter to chase the curve or whether he's trying to throw it over for a strike. Maybe ignore the curveball in situations where the pitcher is trying to get the batter to chase, but you can't ignore the curveball altogether. There are plenty of times during a game where a pitcher is trying to throw the curve to a spot in the strike zone.

Simply because it's harder to judge whether a pitcher's hit his spots or not. With a curve, very often the target is a spot on the ground rather than the glove.

However, you CAN judge whether the pitcher hit his spot or not on a curveball horizontally based on how the catcher sets up.

However, it's much easier to judge with fastballs.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The use of 4 squares is not a good way to approach control development. It is better to separate the boxes into the areas you need to pich to be successful. Most P coaches start by telling you that you will live at the thighs /knee area.and the most important thing is to be around the zone.

I start out with 2 squares (up and down), then move to 4 squares as shown (and tell my pitchers to live in Zone 3 Low and Away and set that up with a few in Zone 2 Up and In), and then move to 9 squares (and tell my guys to live in the backwards "L").

Texan if a pitcher is on he can throw a CB witha full count.
My sons out pitch is a CB since he has thrown them since 9 yo. This is the pitch he uses to get guys out. He can throw it for strikes as well but he throws it because he can control it. Coaches call for it because the batter dosen't know if it is a FB or a CB until he has committed. He rarely goes off the plate by 2' unless it is a cross over CB which cuts accross the plate on the corners.
I generally tel him not to throw in the dirt if there is a guy in scoring position and less tha 2 out. He also needs a good blocking catcher.
Different types of pitchers may rely on a different out pitch. if the guy throws 90+ with movement he may stick with his FB at the knees.
A good CU with movement downwards is also a gret 3rd strike pitch that is easier to keep in front of the catcher.
the point is that this type of pitching will give a skewed view of a pitchers control.

Pain there are lots of guys who can take low and away to the moon. You can see it too well.
a guy on his 3rd strike is very keyed in and you want to give him nothing he can hit but good enough he thinks it si a strike.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain there are lots of guys who can take low and away to the moon. You can see it too well.

I agree, but if you play the percentages that's the best place to pitch (assuming you keep the hitter honest by also coming up and in once in a while). That's why Leo Mazzone taught his guys to live Low and Away.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
a guy on his 3rd strike is very keyed in and you want to give him nothing he can hit but good enough he thinks it si a strike.

I agree.

With an 0-2 count I want the ball either just inside and up (so it goes off the handle) or just outside and down (so it goes off the end of the bat).

This could be an entirely different topic, but what is the purpose of an 0-2 pitch? For me as a pitcher when I get an 0-2 (or even 1-2) pitch.

Purpose one: to get the guy out by making him chase. I'm not going to throw the guy a high fastball that the catcher has to jump to catch. If he's shown good discipline up, then it's a good time for one of my many offspeed pitches.

Purpose two: to set up the next pitch. This, for me, can be accomplished while attempting purpose #1. A lot of times people use a fastball up or way away. What about (assuming the other circumstances are right) throwing a ball that bounces low and in. Make the kids move their feet. This I've found takes lots of confidence and practice... but can be very valuable. Batters get use to an 0-2 high fastball but can be surprised at an 0-2 low and inside (and it's probably going to bounce) fastball. Either they'll dodge it or swing. (Important: don't make it bounce too early... it can hit the guy)

Purpose 3: Pitch out. With runners on, an 0-2 is a good time for a high fastball/pitch out. It still serves a purpose to the batter... and to the runner, after being 0-2, 1-2 can still be used for a high fastball/pitch out (although probably not as likely to be a pitch out).

Purpose 4: Surprise. This can either be with a new pitch the batter hasn't seen (and will probably be used as a "waste"/perfect circumstance out pitch) or throwing a strike with a fastball when it goes VERY FAR against the habit a pitcher has created in these situations. An 0-2 fastball on the in-side corner can be very good because a hitter at this age may not be expecting it and therefore can't react.

Now with all these purposes, one may say what's missing a spot. To me almost any pitch on 0-2 can be effective... even a ball right down the middle. However, I'm going to be very hypocritical and say that a ball smashed because it was right down the middle isn't very effective. A pitcher must have a plan, and with that plan, he has a better chance of hitting that spot or even spots. Sometimes maybe (stress sometimes) it's not about hitting a spot but more about not hitting a certain spot... if that makes sense.

I don't know about percentages, but as a high school pitcher who relied almost eclusively on control and off speed pitches to get hitters out, there were definitely days I could "define" the umpire's strike zone by moving the ball out/up/in/down a ball width at a time.

I have tried to convince my son of the same thing......many times the umpire would even know what I was doing.....if he did recognize it......he was all mine.

Didn't happen every game, but it was really cool when it did.

Curve balls included.

I was discussing a very hard throwing HS pitcher (95 max) with another HS pitcher. He maintained the pitcher wasn't that hard to hit because he threw the ball down the middle (batting average against didn't bear this out). I mentioned to this pitcher who was a low 90s type that taking a bit off to be able to locate was important. He responded that he just threw it down the middle as hard as he could. Anyone see the disconnect?

I haven't seen many HS pitchers really locate. Some can hit areas at times but generally just the ability to throw a lot of strikes and locate on occasion is pretty good for a HS pitcher who has decent stuff.

That's why you'll often see the number of walks go up against stronger hitting teams. Pitchers start to try to locate tighter than they're used to and find out they can't.

As far as down and away there may be a few hitters in HS who can consistently hit 85mph down and away but a lineup that can handle that would be extremely rare.