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Hitting...the most important tool

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Coach KnightCoach Knight500+ posts
Not sure if I'm reading the thread correctly or not, but I'll take a great pitcher over a great hitter any day. I've never seen a great hitter shut down a defense, but I've seen plenty of great pitchers drop the hammer on great offenses.
Hitting is huge, and for position players, it is a necessity...but I still like quality arms over ANYTHING else.
M Michael'sDad100+ posts
Gee thats a shocker! No really, my son once played for a tournament coach that thought speed was, by far, the number one thing. He stated, " I want to create havock on the basepaths!" He would have boys with a .400+ batting average, that were team leaders for the team in RBI's, average with men on, and on base percentage on the bench while a couple of other boys with a 1 to 2 tens faster speed in the 60 (we're talking about 7.2's vs. 7.4's and 7.5's here) played and turned in their .200 batting averages. Then he couldn't figure out why the team was only a 50/50 type team and couldn't score runs. These .200 batting kids also had the 2nd & 3rd most errors on the team. One of his relatives lead the team in errors, but in this case he had a good bat, just had a hard time in the infield. The really funny thing, neither of the kids were related to him and other parents on the team couldn't figure it out.
P pbonesteele100+ posts
I think the original topic "Hitting ... the most important tool" is intended to apply to the individual player, i.e., not everyone on the team is going to be a great pitcher, but really goood teams have an abundance of individual good hitters, and elite position players are first and foremost great hitters before their other atheletic attributes come into play. This doesn't mean they can only hit ... just the most important attribute of being an elite position player is hitting, then your defensive abilities.

In viewing the success of an entire team in comparing the importance of team pitching versus team hitting you can simply ask: How many teams that have dominant and deep pitching but average or worse hitting are successful? Lots ... because in a 0-0 or 1-1 game, luck does have a role. How many teams that have average or worse pitching but dominant hitting are successful? Not many ... you just can't consistently put up double-digit run games or make up 7+ run deficits while your pitchers are throwing BP.

Of course the best teams try real hard to have both good pitching and hitting Smile.

Speed? Can't use it if you can't get on base. I've seen several kids come up that had blinding speed but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn ... they quit baseball and stuck to football where their speed was a great asset and their lack of hand-eye coordination wasn't a liability ... the hard part is holding onto the football while someone cleans your clock.
Last edited by pbonesteele
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
"It ended up being one and done for Clemens, as he allowed five hits and three earned runs while striking out two. The six-time Cy Young Award winner threw 35 pitches in the inning..........Even a sure-fire Hall of Famer like Clemens can be prone to such an onslaught."

Coach Knight, that's what can very well happen when a great pitcher faces great hitting.......
Last edited by BlueDog
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
phonesteel, success is in the eyes of the beholder........I think your reality is what you want it to be........

The Giants go pretty far lately with not so great pitching......And, they do it with only one great hitter.......

The Astros were out of it after great expectations and great pitching until they started hitting the ball and made a good late run..........

The Cubs had a great pitching staff with lofty expectations and faded after they quit hitting.....

Who were the two best hitting teams in baseball last year?.....And, who made it to the World Series?....The answer to both is the Cards and the Sox.........

So, would I rather have Bonds or Clemens?.........I would much rather have Bonds......
Coach KnightCoach Knight500+ posts
BlueDog-
While I appreciate the "cut & paste" knowledge, you could find more articles about Clemens' domination of good hitters than you will of his getting rocked by them!
Good pitching beats good hitting....simple as that. Not true every night, but Bonds doesn't get hits every night either. I've seen HIM get beaten badly on numerous occasions....including every playoff game in his career until a couple of years ago...and some of that was against mediocre pitching at times.
Last edited by Coach Knight
ChicksDigTheLongBallChicksDigTheLongBall500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Knight:
Not sure if I'm reading the thread correctly or not, but I'll take a great pitcher over a great hitter any day. I've never seen a great hitter shut down a defense, but I've seen plenty of great pitchers drop the hammer on great offenses.
Hitting is huge, and for position players, it is a necessity...but I still like quality arms over ANYTHING else.

Absolutely correct coach Knight. Every year when colleges begin spending their scholarships, who are the first to get selected? The best pitchers usually go first and get the best scholarships. I think this speaks for itself. The hitters go next and get the small shares of what's left in the scholarship pool sometimes the hitters are splitting what's left to get on a team.
Last edited by ChicksDigTheLongBall
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Blue,
A really great pitcher pitches even better when facing great hitters!

Quality pitchers get better scholarships because they usually have several choices in their selection of schools. Quality hitters, who are fast and multi talented get good offers as well.

Now a great pitcher who is a great hitter has got it made!
S Scooter10+ posts
To be honest, I believe defense is the most important tool. Why? because if you are being stopped from scoring runs then how is the great hitting helping you win games.

Bluedog,

The World Series this past fall did showcase two good hitting teams, but most of us saw ( the ones who want to admit it )that the pitchers of the Red SOx were able to shut down the good hitters of the Cardinals. So in the end, pitching and defense will win you Championships.


Scooter
M matadordad100+ posts
Let's see... Randy Johnson, Curt Shilling, Mark Prior (healthy)and Johan Santana, vs. Barry Bonds, Carlos Beltran, Vladimir Guerrero, and Alex Rodriguez. I'll take those arms everytime. The hitters will probably average .250 ba. over a 3 game series.

If my memory serves me right(and it seldom does at my age!) didn't the Texas Rangers and Baltimore Orioles live by the "Great hitting will beat great pitching" philosophy for sevral years? And they won how many World Championships?
Last edited by matadordad
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
It truly gets tiring to see people post and then continually get belittled by Blue Dog/ Teacherman

Perhaps we should just sit back let them pontificate to their hearts delight

Got to love it when they just say "WRONG" as if they have all the answers.

This is a forum for discussion and debate not for putting everyone else down as if they were fools

Just my thoughts which boiled over this morning
P pbonesteele100+ posts
TR ... agree 100%.

I have no problem being wrong ... my wife reminds me of that often Smile.

I enjoy spirited discussion of different, even passionate, opinions because I learn a lot ... particularly when the concepts, ideas, positions are debated on their merits with other curious, insightful, and positive people. In the end I'm not all that interested in being right, but more in learning what is right from people that are more knowledgeable than me ... and maybe make some connection with other people in the process.

I find it pretty rude when someone feels they need to elevate and promote their position in a discussion by attempting to undermine others on a personal level ... i.e., stating you're wrong because your position is 'imagined' in your own little 'reality', instead of on presenting stronger evidence that supports the merits of their opinion.

Well, in my own little 'reality' of local HS baseball teams (this is HSbaseballweb after all), the emperical evidence is very strong that teams with at least two dominating Div-I bound pitchers almost always go very far, placing 1st or 2nd in league and moving on to post season play. HS teams lacking a decent pitching rotation have struggled to win consistently regardless of their offensive depth. They win a game here and there ... but not consistently. Ultimately, for 'winning' programs, it's not an either/or proposition ... you have to have a well rounded team both defensively and offensively, but in a vacuum, at least at the HS level, great pitching will usually take you farther than great hitting. By the time you end up in post-season play, of course you'd better have a decent offense because the quality of pitching starts to equalize ... if your HS hitters can only hit average pitching, you'll be knocked out early.

I've also seen the same thing on our club team, which has quality .370-.475 hitting throughout the entire lineup ... for the past three years we've only done really well and advanced into the final rounds of tournaments when we have had a deep pitching rotation.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
pb

As I see it for a team to succeed you need pitching, hitting and defense and not necessarily in that order.

Some years the strength will be hitting, in other years it may be pitching and in others it may well be defense but to win or go deep in tournament play you need a solid comobination of all three.

You also need coaches who know how to maximize the team strengths and minimize the teams weaknesses
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
You people are mising the point, entirely.....Most of you are talking about average hitting......I'm talkng about great hitting......Very few High School or College teams have great hitting.....

For example, L.S.U. won several National Championships during the 90's......They accomplished this because they had great hitting.....They still win because they hit better than most.....
M matadordad100+ posts
Cal State Fullerton are the National Champs because a great pitcher (Jason Windsor) and pitching staff shut down Texas' great hitting. Extremely difficult to do with aluminum bats in the mix I might add.

Successful teams historically are always built around pitching and defense first. Of course you must score to win, but even with very below average hitting the St Louis Cardinals of the Bruce Sutter era were very successful.
Last edited by matadordad
S SBK500+ posts
Top pitching dominates hitters especially at the high school level because the vast majority of even so called “decent” hitters do not have swings built to hit it.

It’s pretty sad when a college coach takes a look at an excellent high school hitter who has worked hard and is a good kid but the experienced coach recognizes that the kid’s swing probably won’t allow him to catch up to better pitching.

I'm going to start another thread called, "Don't change little Johnny's swing" to expand on this.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Blue Dog

Just a thought for you

I may well be a represemtative just based on duration

Secondly -- from someone who is a bit older than you-- I know my ego size and I am very much at ease with it--I have learned-- don't trip over yours --because I have and that is how I learned--sometimes elders know something

You have yet to tell a anyone why you know more than anyone else--you regurgitate what you read or are directed to shill from other sites but with very little if any validity

Anyone can read, copy and paste and then regurgitate--as I invited you last year--I would be more than welcome to bring you in to one of our events and allow you to prove what you know!!!! Are you game for that !! I am sure we would sell out!!!

Also I never claimed to know more than you or anyone else for that matter, we discuss and debate here, and who who says I represent anyone--But I am glad to know you have fans who PM you--I am truly happy for you--I can now sleep at night
Last edited by TRhit
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
"I would be more than welcome to bring you in to one of our events and allow you to prove what you know!!!! Are you game for that !!"

TRhit, just what would you want me to do at one of your events?.....I teach hitting......It's a tedious process and takes hard work.....Not a few day process and then it's showtime..........Short clinics are for dreamers.....
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Bluedog

Our event is three days long with a seminar on the eve of the three days of showcase action

You again tap dance--I do not think you know anything at all--I call your card==show up!!!
I will make the arrangements to get your here-- and then when you are done pontificating I will have others speak on hitting and see where it stands

Am I laying down the guantlet---YES I AM--if you are what you say tell us here on this board that you are coming AS MY GUEST !!!!

I cannot think of a better way for you to show your stuff-- if you got it !!!
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
SI

there are two schools of thought--if you have hitters you will take on any team---on the other hand if you have pitchers you want the same situation

Now you add in in the coaching aspect and strength of the team--one strength won't win it all--baseball needs all elements

You have what you want as your stregnth but you had better have the supporting strengths in their varying degrees--BASEBALL IS A TEAM GAME !!!

HEY
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
This bickering back and forth is not addressing the question, but it is amusing to read!
Reminds me of my kids-10 years ago.

Just a note, a great pitcher in 1934 All-Star game struck out 5 GREAT hitters in a row-Babe
Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons, and Joe Cronin.

Baltimore Orioles shut down the Dodgers in the World Series-1966 on 1 run in four games, in
1970 beat the Big Red Machine 4 games to 1(Cincinnati had team BA of about .225).

I'm sure there are instances of good hitting teams beating good pitching teams but in my
opinion great pitching beats great hitting most of the time.
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
TR-Generally I agree with your assessment of HS and College team makeup. However, respectfully I don't believe that's the question. I think what one poster was asking was "does good hitting beat good pitching or vice versa?"

Naturally on a team I would want all of my starters to be "great hitters" and all of my pitchers to be "great" as well. Think of it this way, if you, as a manager had to make this choice what would you do? Sandy Koufax pitching FOR you in the seventh game of the WS, against a team with Barry Bonds, or you take the team with Barry Bonds and face Sandy Koufax? (It doesn't matter who the other players are in this scenerio-both teams are in the WS).

Bottom line is--If the best faced the best, who would dominate?
Last edited by Moc1
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
First of all I look at baseball as a TEAM GAME--one on one best vs best scenario doesnt win games and impact team make up

But to answer you about a one on one , head to head between pitcher and hitter, best faced the best--I think in the long run it would end up 50-50- and hopefully when it is my hitter up or my pitcher on the mound the 50/50 adds up to 100% of the time
Last edited by TRhit
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Koufax never pitched to a hitter like Bonds........Because there has never been a hitter like him......

Koufax pitching, game's on the line.......Bonds comes to bat.....Koufax walks him......Just like all the hotshot pitchers do, now.....No difference......If Koufax does pitch to him, Bonds wins the game, just like he does, now.......No difference........ noidea
B bbscout1,000+ posts
There would be a difference if Bonds played in the 60's against Koufax. He would just be wearing a little skull cap and he would not have any armor on his right arm. He would still be a great hitter, but he would have to do it dusting himself off about 2-3 times a game. If Drysdale was pitching, and was ordered to walk Bonds, he might just drill him instead. The umpires let the pitchers do what they wanted in the 60's and the great hitters got thrown at. Frank Robinson was hit between 10-20 times a year for about 10-12 years. Bonds has been drilled 10 times in only one season and is given a strike zone about the size of a volleyball. Koufax pitched to Mays who was every bit as good as Bonds. Bonds has always been a real good hitter, but he has only been great for the last 4-5 years, and that is why his batting average just reached .300.
Last edited by bbscout
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
My team vs your team to prove the point.
My team The best starting pitchers in MLB. The best bull pen in MLB. The best closer in MLB.
My team avg MLB hitters.
My team avg MLB defense.

Your team average MLB starting pitching. Average MLB bullpen. Average MLB closer.
Your team the best hitters in MLB baseball.
Your team avg MLB defense.

Now we play 162 games. Who has the best record at the end of the year. If we account for injuries lets say for the sake of argument that they are replaced by someone just as good. Which team would you take and why?
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
BLUE DOG

Answer the question I asked instead of answering with a question !!!

You may well be a Freddie Adu fan for all I know

Don't be so all out condescending ---


You now that I think about it Blue Dog has never answered a question--he just twists all the words around to fit his mood of "I know it all"

Again I ask

Blue Dog--have you ever seen Koufax pitch ???
Last edited by TRhit
Glove ManGlove Man1,000+ posts
quote:
Trhit, I already told you, I only work with those who come to me......I don't give out resumes, nor do I solicit.....You do that, not me..........


BlueDog,
Judging from some of your posts, you are in and around the Houston area. I have a friend who has a soph in HS on the north side of Houston. If you are within 160 miles of Houston, send me a private message, and we'll get together and you can share some of your knowledge with us. And help a kid out while you're at it. I am not asking for a resume, or for you to solicit. I am asking for help. Will you meet us?
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Blue Dog would you not agree that some of the best hitters in MLB are average MLB fielders? Now how do you take that out of the equation? As far as great pitching vs great hitting, some times the hitting wins and sometimes the pitching wins. And sometimes the hitting wins ands still looses. How many ropes are caught? Hitter has a great ab and hits a seed that is right at someone. You can win the battle at the plate and still get out right? I take the pitching in the long run. I love hitting and feel that for a posistion player it is what separates kids. If you take the best kids from an area and put them on a field together the one thing that will make one stand out over the others is the bat.
D DodgerBlues10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
My team vs your team to prove the point.
My team The best starting pitchers in MLB. The best bull pen in MLB. The best closer in MLB.
My team avg MLB hitters.
My team avg MLB defense.

Your team average MLB starting pitching. Average MLB bullpen. Average MLB closer.
Your team the best hitters in MLB baseball.
Your team avg MLB defense.

Until you put it this way, I was ready to join the "pitchers" side. But in today's game, with today's hitters, strike zone, baseball, field dimensions, etc., I'll take the hitting team. I think my average MLB pitchers against your average MLB hitters will hold you to an average number of runs per game, but if I can have the 10 best hitters against the game's best pitchers, I think we score more than the average number of runs and win more often than not. Just my opinion, though, and I don't think I would have felt the same way 20 years ago.

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