Holding runner at 2nd

"TRUE STORY"

Our American Goodwill Series teams were playing in Sydney at the Olympic Baseball Stadium when Pat Kelly a former NY Yankee and St Louis Cardinal player requested my assistance in a discussion with the Australia National & NSW State teams middle infielders.

Pat related the time he was playing for Rudy La Russa the Cardinals Manager.

Pat playing 2b and Ricky Henderson was at 2b as runner.

Standard practice was for the 2b to make a motion toward 2b and clap his hands and then move back. Of course Ricky timed this move and stole 3b. End of the inning and Rudy said "hold him on".

Next time Ricky is at 2b, Pat hold him at the bag like a 1b. He does not steal 3b.

To do this the 2b must splint to his position when the pitcher releases the pitch, in addition he needs to alert the 1b to play toward 2b and inform the pitcher to cover 1b on all balls hit in right side of the infield.

Every situation requires creative adjustments.

Bob

Nathan,

It's easier to stay on the right track if you think of it as "keeping the runner honest" instead of "holding the runner." 

freddy77 posted:

Nathan,

It's easier to stay on the right track if you think of it as "keeping the runner honest" instead of "holding the runner." 

Yep.  Have the SS or 2b make moves toward second. And have the pitcher actually make an attempt or two.   As for signals have the catcher do it - glove drop, tapping knee or something.  

All you really need to keep the runner honest is to have the pitcher vary the looks he takes to 2b.   One of the MIFs should give the pitcher a sign for how many before each pitch. As for a pickoff play, IMO, no reason to get  the C involved.  If SS or 2B thinks he's got a play he gives a verbal or physical signal to the pitcher.

Holding runners on second has become very ordinary. Most teams use the MIF to clap their gloves and move back and forth to and from the base to trry and confuse the runner. It does not confuse a seasoned base stealer. In fact they anticipate that move and use it to steal third. Most pitchers are not confident with their move to second and it is inferior to the move they have to first. Be careful you dont over think and throw the ball into CF and give the runner third without any chance for a play.

nxt lvl posted:

Holding runners on second has become very ordinary.

nxt lvl,

Interesting post.

Regarding "very ordinary":  Compared to what?

nxt lvl posted:

Holding runners on second has become very ordinary. Most teams use the MIF to clap their gloves and move back and forth to and from the base to trry and confuse the runner. It does not confuse a seasoned base stealer. In fact they anticipate that move and use it to steal third. Most pitchers are not confident with their move to second and it is inferior to the move they have to first. Be careful you dont over think and throw the ball into CF and give the runner third without any chance for a play.

It takes a higher level of trust to throw to second, b/c fielder is not on the bag.  It's a timing play that has to be practiced.

Freddy, I am speaking of amateur players college or younger

Ordinary meaning two things...the multiple variations of the move to first and the zest it is done to try and actually get the runner out. Most moves to second are "get back" moves. Designed to keep the runner closer to second and discourage larger leads that would make it easier to score on a hit. The pitcher will step off and glare very obviously at the runner, sometimes, instead of throwing to pick him off.

Picking a runner of of first is a very exciting play. Throwing a runner out while he is trying to steal is also exciting. Pitcher throwing to second base to make the runner "get back" or stay close ........not so much 

Have done many different things of the last 20+ years. Now we do very little moving in and out with the MIF.  We have which ever one has the bag be close enough to take the throw from pitcher if need be (usually a few steps). We want the runner to get forget about us.  

I'm like d8. We hold runners with proximity to the bag. As a 3b coach, if the fielder is able to get to the bag before my runner I have to respect that. Guys that move around and in and out are too easy to read. We like to lull them to sleep and then break if needed.

One thing we'll never do is have the SS cut in front of the R2. To easy to get obstruction if you have a clue.

How much attention we pay to opposing r2's partly depends on the tendencies of the opposing coach, which can vary widely in HS ball.  We play the same programs every year, multiple times per year, so you learn their tendencies.

On one end of the spectrum, you've got some coaches who won't even consider having their guy attempt a steal of third unless it's a gimme.

On the other end, there are coaches who throw away the "book" and are super-aggressive stealing third...especially against LHPs...these coaches smell blood in the water!

I have my pitchers employee an inside move/feint every now and then just so that the runner understands he can't depend on getting a jump based on timing without risk. As to actual picks to second, that decision is normally designated to the middle infielder assigned the bag. It's a timing thing. If the ss flaps his glove at the pitcher, the pitcher counts, he immediately breaks for the bag and the pitcher performs a spin move and throw. With younger players, I also used to have the MIFer clutch his fist behind his back so that cf knows to immediately charge in. As they get to high school age and the cf moves farther back, it becomes less relevant that he be in on the play.

Nathan posted:

How do you hold your runner at 2nd?

 But also might incorporate the shortstop running in front of runner and second breaking.  

Similar to ironhorse, we NEVER do this.

1.  Potential for obstruction

2.  Not deceptive : It's very obvious to the opposing 3b coach.

IMO, it's a trick play that only has the (slim) potential to work against the worst teams you play against. 

Not sure how good this is but it sure was confusing, this is high school and below.  2B calls out a number whenever there is a runner on second, both the CF and the pitcher can hear this number.  There is a code.  It may be only act on odd numbers, even numbers, numbers that end in 3...etc.  They change it A LOT!  If the code is not heard nothing happens.  If the code is heard the pitcher will come set, count to 3, and throw to second as CF comes in.

EDIT: After the first time the pick off happened the runners tended to stay close to 2B because they didn't know if the code just yelled out was a pick off sign or not.

Sounds wild to have the CF come running in.  Always thought you might get to run this play when you have an aggressive runner, but maybe 1-2 times a season and only when the runner is really stretching towards 3rd and maybe infield is in a little so he has some comfort that they are not covering the base.

On the other hand, I would expect our 3B coach to prevent our player from ever getting picked off in this manner.

I think there's a divide between HS and youth ball on this.  From what I've seen, very few HS players can steal 3B from a pitcher and infielders who know their business, and very few HS pitchers can pick off a runner at 2B who knows his.  There are a lot fewer throws and glove slapping and in-and-out stuff by the MIF's compared to youth ball. It's more about keeping the runner honest, as Freddy says.

Speaking of CF running in, we used to play a team at 13U who ran the most annoying play.  With a runner at 2nd they would have the pitcher, or sometimes the catcher, on a back pick, throw high, then have F6 jump wildly after it and pretend it got past him, and F8 run toward the fence like it had gotten past him too, but meanwhile F4 had actually caught the ball and was ready to tag out the supposedly confused runner.  First time I saw this I laughed out loud. Second time, I turned to other team's manager and gave him a c'mon man gesture.  Third time, my runner actually got caught. I still can't believe that.

JCG posted:

I think there's a divide between HS and youth ball on this.  From what I've seen, very few HS players can steal 3B from a pitcher and infielders who know their business, and very few HS pitchers can pick off a runner at 2B who knows his.  There are a lot fewer throws and glove slapping and in-and-out stuff by the MIF's compared to youth ball. It's more about keeping the runner honest, as Freddy says.

Speaking of CF running in, we used to play a team at 13U who ran the most annoying play.  With a runner at 2nd they would have the pitcher, or sometimes the catcher, on a back pick, throw high, then have F6 jump wildly after it and pretend it got past him, and F8 run toward the fence like it had gotten past him too, but meanwhile F4 had actually caught the ball and was ready to tag out the supposedly confused runner.  First time I saw this I laughed out loud. Second time, I turned to other team's manager and gave him a c'mon man gesture.  Third time, my runner actually got caught. I still can't believe that.

 

We used to have this in our playbook at the youth level. A couple of years ago, I was at a high school state playoff game because two of my pitchers were playing. Down by one run in the bottom of the seventh, they had the tying run on second with two outs and the three-hole guy up. What followed was the ESPN Sports Center top ten #1 for the day:

By the way, that was a semi-final game and put the winning team in the state championship game.

Wow. I'll have to send that to my player.  He turned into a decent HS player and is now in college pre-med.

JCG posted:

Wow. I'll have to send that to my player.  He turned into a decent HS player and is now in college pre-med.

I was going nuts in the stands because the player who got caught of of second base played for me from 11-13u and we practiced that very play!

JCG posted:

I think there's a divide between HS and youth ball on this.  From what I've seen, very few HS players can steal 3B from a pitcher and infielders who know their business, and very few HS pitchers can pick off a runner at 2B who knows his.  There are a lot fewer throws and glove slapping and in-and-out stuff by the MIF's compared to youth ball. It's more about keeping the runner honest, as Freddy says.

 

I agree with this. I we steal 3b it's usually because 1. the P isn't mixing anything  so we can time him easily and get a great jump or 2. the MIF are paying no attention to him so we can get a massive lead and the P still doesn't notice.

I've had a few D1 track kids who can just plain steal when they want, but other than that the defense has to be screwing something more often than not.

I could care less if my teams ever pick off a runner at second.  At the high school level the average P and MIF will never get enough reps at this to be very good at it.  If a runner gets picked off at second it's because the runner messed up or just didn't react fast enough.  Now we do run pick offs to hold runners but our goal is never to get a guy.  If we get an out great but I would rather us execute a safe pick off to make the runner think we want to get him versus trying to get an out that may happen once every 3 years while throwing the ball into CF.  We basically keep them in the neighborhood with very little movement.  If we do call a pick off then obviously we move to the bag but we take the timing of throwing and being there out of the equation as much as possible.  Do not care if we get them or not.  Just keep them close.

If I'm playing a high school team that uses the CF for a pick off we better win the game by mercy rule.  If I'm in the 3B box and my runner gets picked off with the CF then I hope they fire me before the game is over.  If I'm still AD when I'm a head coach again I'll fire myself.

As for the runner flashing in front of the SS I love it when defenses does this to my team.  I now a pick off is coming.  I tell my guys if the defense does something out of the ordinary then it's because they want to try and do something.  Shorten up your lead so you can get back.  I want my guys proportional to MIF depth anyway.  If they think it would take 5 steps for them to get to the bag then I want 6 steps.  If the SS runs in front I want them at 3 to 4 steps.  If the SS resets and 2B hasn't moved then get back out to 6.  Nobody does this often and only does it on pick offs or setting up pick offs.  I really hope we don't fall for it.  I'm not a throw the book away aggressive coach but the book is on the other side of the table.  We are going to be aggressive at second but not reckless.  So if you try things like this then we are going to look to have bigger leads because now we are in your head.  You make a mistake we will hurt you.

As for the trick play at 2B I'm all for it and I've ran it for years.  Some people don't like it and won't run it which is fine.  But just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm not going to run it.  I'm going to see if you've taught your runners to pay attention and to know where the ball is.  That's your fault not mine.

Just to clarify, in my scenario the CF came in for the possible overthrow by the pitcher/miss by 2B, not to be part of the play.

What signals do you use from the catcher to the pitcher to let the second baseman know a pick off is coming?

coach2709 posted:

 

As for the runner flashing in front of the SS I love it when defenses does this to my team.  I now a pick off is coming.  I tell my guys if the defense does something out of the ordinary then it's because they want to try and do something.  Shorten up your lead so you can get back.  

We just steal and initiate contact with the SS. Not dirty, but to demonstrate obstruction. Free bag.

There are 2 reasons to keep a runner honest at second base.

1. To deter r2 from stealing by shortening up his primary lead:   Like most coaches, if I'm concerned, for whatever reason, about stealing, I'll trade-off some of our MIF's defensive range/positioning to deter it

2.  To decrease r2's ability to score on a single by limiting his secondary lead**:   I'm less willing than most coaches to impair/trade-off the range/positioning of our MIFs in order to achieve #2.   (The backpick threat of a decent catcher keeps secondary leads short enough for me.)

I've coached with some good coaches who disagree with me about #2.

_______

**by shortening up his primary lead

SS/2B knows to anticipate the throw after flashing his glove...he's got to stay near the bag and it's his job to get to the bag on time.  I never made a bad throw.   Still, I never picked anyone off.  Runners don't usually try to steal 3rd.