Hoodwinked........what a gimmick!!

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
My son the pitcher loves to throw at wood bats, me the college baseball fan enjoys watching the offensive college game that is a result of the metal bat. Look at the College summer Leagues that use wood bats and I think you will find that batting averages fall on average a good 50 points in most cases from the college season numbers. That is at least my look at it from Northwoods numbers. With that same thought, wood bats at the HS level would further contribute to the decline in participation numbers due to a lack in productivity. At this point I think we are being very "American" by focusing only on the economic impact.

Only the cream moves on to the professional level and even those batting numbers drop significantly from their college numbers even in the minors. As far as those who say bats should be wood accross the board is not looking at other sports that make a change at the pro level.

Larger goal posts in pro football
Different size footballs in the pros
Longer 3 pt line in pro basketball
Different bats in baseball

....and the list of differences goes on.

Great post!

As your kids get older and go to the next level, you will realize that those with remarkable talent can hit with a stick, they don't even need much adjustments.

A sign of our generation. How many of you purchase new phones when the new technology comes out, only to find out it is just not as good as your old phone. Same with the bat, the newer the technology, the better you think your son can hit the ball. As long as you keep buying, they will keep making.

You will never see wood bats in major college programs. Most summer and fall leagues are wood bat leagues, so take advantage.


While in Omaha I read an article about most schools in one state, believe it is Kansas, will check if wrong, going for wood bats, to reduce injury. Injury can occur with or without, maybe less severerty of the injury, just as our own Justbaseball.

rz1:

No, I think you are dead wrong about that. There is plenty of standing timber in the US to easily supply whatever amount of timber would be needed to convert to wood bats.

Take it from someone who lives in timber country.... this nation is awash in standing timber.

Sure, the enviros scream every time we try to cut a tree down. So what. If they had their way we'd be living in trees rather than cutting them down to build houses.

I realize now that a consensus on this topic is unlikely, then again changing equipment rules always seems to stir controversy. But whenever I hear someone say something “will never happen” I always feel let down. It’s like no matter how good an idea it is, it still falls on deaf ears. Complacency is all around us.

I think that baseball coaches are among the very best in sports. They do it because they’re very good at it, and they love what they do; they don’t do it for just the money. They coach because they still see themselves as teachers, and they care a great deal about the game. I’ll bet that 90% of college and high school coaches would take wood over metal if given the choice, all other factors being equal.

Safety, player development, healthy pitchers, manageable baseball games, and aesthetics are all good reasons to go wood. Big Batco's marketing & legal departments along with little Johnny’s inflated stats (metal bats enhance stats like steroids do) are lesser arguments against. Change is hard, but all those changes that RZ mentioned were accomplished despite complacency and stubborn rules committees.

Yes TPM, the Empire Conference (in Colorado and Nebraska) is using wood all the way up to the Juco WS. There are others too. They’re using wood not just for safety reasons, but because it helps the players develop faster as well, and not only hitters but pitchers too. I think you’ll see more Juco conferences following suite.

I truly hope that technology never takes over sports (especially baseball) like it has communications. A laser defined strike zone? What’s next, glowing baseballs ala the glowing puck? Electronic bats? (uh, never mind)
Babe save us all, please.

quote:

I truly hope that technology never takes over sports (especially baseball) like it has communications. A laser defined strike zone? What’s next, glowing baseballs ala the glowing puck? Electronic bats? (uh, never mind)
Babe save us all, please.

****** GO TALK TO TAYLORMADE GOLF, THE #1 CULPRIT IN THE BAS****IZATION OF SPORTS EQUIPMENT.

They come out with junk every couple months for "game improvement" $$$$$$$

Does that mean the previous model was inferior?

Pretty soon, golf with be played on airport runways.

.

It is all as simple as this....It's not about asthetics, or player development, or available wood, or global warming, it's about money...

As long as collegiate bean counters don't want to fully fund their programs...

As long as offense puts paying buts in the college seats...

and the profits from $350 bats help fund many college programs...

Composite bats and the companies who make them will rule.

44

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Did somebody say boycott?

The main point of my opening comment was the fact that the quality of workmanship in the USA has declined in some areas of production.

For $329 dollars, you would expect the best product made, but when the boy hit his "2 year cycle" for a bat upgrade(aluminum), as I supply maples as needed with no reluctance, he chose the exogrid............like many others.

When I researched the LS web for the product, the first thing I thought of was that you can't punch holes in metals/alloys and not think the metal will FAIL.

I also felt the same way with the other MFG's flex handle, 2-piece, rubber thingie in the middle, pretty much any scheme these companies could use to circumvent BESR in any way to attract youngsters, duping them into having them come to daddy needing the latest and greatest performance enhancing piece of junk.

Trust me, he is a hoopster also, which means the annual basketball shoe jamboree. Do you want to know how many pairs I had to send back to either Nike or Reebok after one game with the shoe bottoms coming apart?

How many of you triple check the lunch bag before you leave the drive-thru? I can say 99% of the time the order is screwed up. Nobody gives a rats arse!!

So when some rocket scientists at LS have a better idea, and they fail, it only makes us look smarter, unless we duped into it!! GUILTY AS CHARGED.

Regarding wood bats, I am biased. PERIOD

The game of baseball, hitting in particular, should be judged with wood at all levels. Seeing a 150 pound HS sophomore clear a 385 foot fence is plain WRONG.

So you think I will want my 8 year old to be a pitcher?

You can read all the horror stories about these rocket line drives off the metal bats, as they sadden me. Yeah, it can happen with wood, but not off some 150 pound kid!!

This is one of my major pet peeves in the world of baseball - the $350 annual bat expenditure. Drives me nuts, especially when I have to hear half way through the season "my bat lost it's pop". It's a total rip off. Our high school doesn't provide bats - I don't know when that changed, because my husband played from Little League all the way through high school and NEVER owned his own bat. But just yesterday I was looking at all the bats lined up in the dugout and doing some quick math - 18 kids times $300=$5000 worth of metal. What a waste, especially since many of them were duplicates of the same make and model.

One year I tried to get our travel team parents to cooperate on buying bats - every player throw in $100 and buy four or five bats. The parents who liked the idea were the ones putting out $300 for son's bat. The ones who didn't were the freeloaders who've never purchased a bat up to that point, so why start now? My son still plays with several boys who have never had their own bat - always "borrow" from someone else. And they do seem to always be the ones with the least respect for the bat.

This year our son and another player each wanted the same bat, same size, so they found a great internet site to buy it from, saved over $100 and each paid half the price of the bat. At the end of the season the other boy gave the bat to my son since he was going to continue playing and the other boy's "career" was done. However, I do feel a bit cheated - the other boy had three homeruns and my had none!

quote:

Originally posted by Beezer:
28" Adirondak.

thats what I had, and what a mess that first pinetar rag was.........

nowadays, can I borrow your rubber grip spray?

Larger programs get their equipment donated. They have plenty of money to purchase what they need, but they don't HAVE to. Nothing looks better than being on TV, with a manufactures bat, glove,uniform or shoes being worn.

Those that would NOT benefit would be smaller programs. Even those who are beginning to use wood bats now, it's a great idea,but they will find out it is VERY expensive to keep up.

Don't get me wrong I HATE the metal bats, as a pitcher's mom, it's not my preference.

I just think that its funny, those who keep buying the best latest and greatest bats every year so son can improve his LONG ball, are usually the ones who have the problem. What you all need to do is DEMAND that bat manufacturers live up to their warranties. Let your sons go out and have FUN! Their talent will come through in the end, metal or wood.

I will tell you one thing, if I had to listen to games all spring season that I am listening to now on the internet, using wood bats, I would go crazy. And I don't know if son would enjoy the college game as much, and he is a pitcher.

JMO.

FOR WHAT ITS WORTH.........

Youngster got the new Exo from LS 12 hours later because pops demands satisfaction.

The boy said send the junk back to the retailer, I don't need it. He said he will use Maples the remainder of the summer as well as with the Midwest Redbirds Scout team in the Fall.

"What's the point in hitting 450 foot metal bombs when they want to see wood anyway."

Now if another 300,000 had that attitude, who knows what could develop.

Everyone loves gap shots!! Triples are exciting, aren't they?

I guess someone will spank me for that?

Can somebody tell me why the Batcos can't figure out how to make a ton of money on wood bats?
Here are some factors to consider:

1) MLB endorsments for advertising clout (why havn't they maximized this already?)
2) increased sales volume
3) decreased R&D budgets
4) decreased defective mechandise returns plus resulting decreased shipping costs.

It all points in the direction of increased profits. These guys aren't stupid, but they are motivated by greed, and they're complacent cause they're sitting pretty right now.

TPM, with all due respect, if you truly enjoy that ping then I cannot argue with you. But I sure am glad that Hawai'i has a great play-by-play guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
rz1:

No, I think you are dead wrong about that. There is plenty of standing timber in the US to easily supply whatever amount of timber would be needed to convert to wood bats.

Take it from someone who lives in timber country.... this nation is awash in standing timber.

Sure, the enviros scream every time we try to cut a tree down. So what. If they had their way we'd be living in trees rather than cutting them down to build houses.

First of all the way things are shaking out in DC the next 2 administration will be listening to those environmentalist every scream. Be prepared.

I agree there is wood, but, is it a quality "bat wood" like a Maple? The key to the whole process is consistency. Anyone, be it from HS through college is going to want a bat that is durable. has the length to weight density, has the maximum "pop", and most of all will feel the same bat to bat. You will not get that from just any tree in the forest.

Yes, you do live in the #2 timber producing area of the country. I have also seen a tree or two in my day as my noggin has 50 years of dents from Walnunts, Hickorynuts, and acorns, but did you know the South now harvests more timber than the Northwest. I saw it on the Discovery channel last week. That's todays "Fun Fact"

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
but did you know the South now harvests more timber than the Northwest.

It's a huge business down in Alabama.

quote:

sizzlepop says: It all points in the direction of increased profits. These guys aren't stupid, but they are motivated by greed, and they're complacent cause they're sitting pretty right now.

It sounds like good business sense to me that is driven by consumers like us . A business that chews off the hand that feeds it does not remain a business for long. I'm guilty, not only in the baseball bat sense but also in any other activity that my family pursues. If I can afford a purchase I'll find a way to personally justify it, and trust me when I say that I do not have deep pockets. Sometimes you have to stand in front of the mirror and decide where to go from there. What you see may not be what you want but being part of our kids lives is a short piece of our lives and we as parents want that time to be good as possible, and "good" is directly related to the tools they use, in this case "the bat". The whole problem is that grassroot efforts are longterm and the consumers involvement with a product is not.

quote:

rz1 says: I think those tournaments are usually sponsored by a wood bat company.

sizzlepop replies: RZ- Not sure I understand your point here. All of the big ones have sponsors, equipment and otherwise, but the best that I've been to (I'm talking East Cobb and Jupiter events) are not bat promotions by any means.

My mistake. Sponsored was the wrong word, but I would say that the wood bat companies will do whatever is asked of them to support the events.

quote:

sizzlepop says: Pitchers get better (throwing to wood).

Now it's my turn to say I don't understand as pitchers can "get away" with many more "mistakes" when throwing to wood versus metal. How do they get better against wood? Find me a pitcher who is sucessful against metal, and I'll show you one that eats up wood.

quote:

sizzlepop says: I don't agree that HS participation would drop with wood.

This site mainly deals with players and the parents of kids who have had more sucess than most in the sport. ~80% of HS players are already frustrated with the inability to consistantly hit with metal. Whats going to happen when you put wood in their hands? My bet is a number of them will start using their head.... and feet and move over to the sokker field. I think we have to keep in mind that in reality most HS players are not willing to put the work in to get better and look to the next level, the alternative is to move to something easier like being a dandelion kicker. This would have an exponential affect over time that would soon pollute the baseball gene pool .

This discussion is right up my wooded ravine...ahem...alley, but I don't have time to respond now.

I'll be back with you later!

quote:

80% of HS players are already frustrated with the inability to consistantly hit with metal

Such would suggest a follow-up study is needed to determine what percentage of those 80% have had private hitting instruction and just how much was invested

RZ, you obviously like the metal bat game and I’m probably not the one who’s going to change your mind. But the issue at hand is an important one to me. Yes I prefer the wood bat game. That’s the equipment that MLB uses, and I think most kids that play the game want to emulate the MLB game as much as possible.

Metal bats change the game by tipping the balance to the offense. It detracts from the nuances that the game relies on to succeed, like crisply played 2 and ½ hour games. Double-digit games are tiresome for all, and if they become commonplace they fail to do anything to attract only the most involved baseball fans. I don’t see how that helps put more fans in the seats.

As far as pitchers getting better, it’s about using both sides of the plate. It’s about owning your property (the inside half of the plate) and getting a weak grounder. It’s about making quality pitches that result in a routine fly or double play ground ball. You talk about discouraging HS hitters, what about HS pitchers? Nobody wants to see 110mph lasers flying back at pitchers. Just witnessing one such incident is more likely to send a kid crying to the s****r coach than striking out any number of times.

Don’t sell the kids short on this one. Hitting with wood is hard, but not impossible. Heck, if I could do it then I know it’s not THAT hard! Wood will make them appreciate the game even more. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if the game is perceived as fair and they have a chance to win, they will play.

sizzlepop,
We agree to disagree....kind of

For now, put aside the economic and environmental issues. Baseball is a game a for wood, bottom line. With that said HS players, as a whole, are not physically ready, or mentally competent enough to understand the work involved in becoming proficient with a wood bat. Because of other "after school" activities, put wood in the hands of a 14 year old freshman and he may become a 15 year old sokker player. Metal bats fill out teams at the HS level. You are going to have 4-5 guys on a varsity team that can hit with wood, the other jv and freshman will be hitting deep flies to the second baseman or the game will become nothing but "smallball" where coaches are forced to use what their teams do best and that is "not hit".

quote:

As far as pitchers getting better, it’s about using both sides of the plate.

With wood in HS with the exception of a few players on the team, a pitcher can pitch to any part of the plate for a potential out. With metal a pitcher has to learn to be perfect because anyone can make good contact.

Years ago, before the the metal bat era, HS baseball was not a National sport. The metal bat brought excitement and personal success to the game, and with excitement and success comes higher personal standards. HS baseball could be played with wood, but it's not. I'm not the kind to go out on a limb, but, I would go as far as saying that the metal bat at the HS level is a major contributer to the success of PG and other "select" organizations, and even to web sites like HSBBW. Not that they use metal, but that the bat has increased the interest in the game which in turn keeps more kids involved, which in turn increases the number of players at that elite level.

College is a different story. I enjoy offense, but the more I think about it, they should be playing with wood. But because of the economic impact that will not change unless you see a rash of severe injuries that would force change .

rz - you make some sense with your argument re: metal keeps players playing, but I would counter with - are there really more players playing high school baseball now than before the advent of the metal bat? Changing expectations is the real issue, I think.

If wood was so discouraging, baseball would have died as a sport way before metal could come along to save the day... I watched lots of high school games from the dugout (kept the book for four years - I was no dummy, that's where the boys were!) and I sure remember lots of 2bs, 3bs and hrs back in the day, and we still had enough kids to go out for the team that we had cuts at a very small school (under 800 kids). Back then, athletes were happy to MAKE the varsity team... they knew then they would have to EARN a spot on the field. Not anymore - I don't start, I'll pick another sport.

What's changed? Kids have many more options so they don't work at anything that's perceived as "hard", more sports expecting year-round commitment, and an even greater focus on "the long ball" because of that other game-spoiler at the higher levels, 'roids.

JMHO...

quote:

are there really more players playing high school baseball now than before the advent of the metal bat?

Good question. I think if you do not factor in the baseball "hotbeds" and look at the country in general I think there are fewer players trying out for HS baseball. I don't have any numbers but I think it is safe to say that at every school there are top athletes who years ago would have played baseball but now play other sports. With many of those athletic players removed your pool of "hard working" players many teams are now made up of kids that would have been cut, thus creating somewhat weaker rosters at the Frosh and jv levels. This is where you will begin to lose the players.

My counter question would be if it was all wood, would there be fewer still? I think so. My reason there being that that the HS pitchers are significantly better than 10 years ago because it has become for many a "skill specific" position. As the overall pitching got better because specific training, the "overall" hitting got better because of the hardware used. This topic is full of "what ifs". However, I can imagine that HS pitching today would completely dominate the HS game if the bat was wood. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

With all the athletic options available at the HS level today, a player who may have been adaquet with metal in LL and then forced to switch to wood in HS would probably switch activities, along with his best buddy who was in the same boat, and then his younger brother and his buddy in the future, a cascading affect. Now keep that bat metal and that same kid will know he has a chance and maybe the light will come on and he will become that elite player in a couple years. IMHO

rz - I hear you. Point well made.

Agreed 100%,and Im a player!

I could never afford a brand new stealth,or demarini.Its outrageous!$300.00 is WAY to much for piece of metal.

We are using woods this summer,and I love it.I actually feel like a better hitter.I feel wood is a wake up call to "semi-laziness." What I mean by this is with metal,I could get away with being late and still pulling it down the line for a double,or having an uppercut,and getting a HR.With wood,you have to square up so it hits the barrell,you have to time it better,etc

I wish we used woods,but those hits the other way that would normally be at the 1b with a wood bat sure do please me!

mythreesons asked: "are there really more players playing high school baseball now than before the advent of the metal bat?"

RZ1 says "Good question. I think if you do not factor in the baseball "hotbeds" and look at the country in general I think there are fewer players trying out for HS baseball. I don't have any numbers but I think it is safe to say that at every school there are top athletes who years ago would have played baseball but now play other sports."

If this is somehow true as you suggest and numbers are down, then metal bats have failed to do anything to effectively promote the sport OR help keep the best athletes playing baseball. Isn’t this where we should be focusing our concerns instead of trying to attract attention-challenged warm bodies and propping them up with rocket launchers? I don’t have any numbers either, but if we’re to use conjecture in this argument then maybe some of these elite athletes are playing sports that have more perceived integrity than metal bat baseball. You don’t see HS football coaches calling for smaller footballs so passing yards increase, or basketball coaches clamoring to lower the rim so more kids can dunk.

RZ1 says: "My counter question would be if it was all wood, would there be fewer still? I think so. My reason there being that that the HS pitchers are significantly better than 10 years ago because it has become for many a "skill specific" position. As the overall pitching got better because specific training, the "overall" hitting got better because of the hardware used. This topic is full of "what ifs". However, I can imagine that HS pitching today would completely dominate the HS game if the bat was wood. Maybe I'm completely wrong."

Outside of the baseball hotbeds that you’ve already excused, I don’t think you’re going to find many arguments here that HS pitching is significantly better now than ten years ago. Besides, hitters get better instruction too. You also made note of weak HS pitching in championship play in another thread, so maybe this argument should be dropped.

"With all the athletic options available at the HS level today, a player who may have been adaquet with metal in LL and then forced to switch to wood in HS would probably switch activities, along with his best buddy who was in the same boat, and then his younger brother and his buddy in the future, a cascading affect. Now keep that bat metal and that same kid will know he has a chance and maybe the light will come on and he will become that elite player in a couple years. IMHO"

All right, then start them off right by using wood in LL too. Look, my point is that safety for players should come first, and be a much higher priority than enabling ego sensitive HS athletes to fill out rosters. Metal was introduced years ago to supposedly reduce costs. As pointed out at the start of this thread, it never really did. It did, however, change the game. Thank god MLB didn’t get suckered into that one.

Sizzlepup,

Your main focus is safety and I will not argue the fact that you are right, wood is safer. Is that what you wanted to hear?

I did make a point that pitching today was better than years ago and you responded by..

quote:

...You also made note of weak HS pitching in championship play in another thread, so maybe this argument should be dropped.

My comment there was not related to pitching "then and now" it referenced hitters statistics in respective Divisions.

I'll stop commenting because I guess I'm talking out of my backside, contradicting myself, and not making any sense. The last thing I need is you interpruting and turning around what I say. I have the experience and can make myself look like an idiot without your help, thank-you.

Later sizzlepop