Hopeless?? - controversial subject, maybe...

Is he playing summer ball?

greatgame posted:

Is he playing summer ball?

On and off... Money, parents, you know the drill... but sometimes he does.  Usually as a fill in for teams in need.  

The social perspective for Latin players isn't great. Sure a handful gets a big bonus but the majority gets a small bonus, washes out after two years in the minors and then is on the streets without a school education (I know on paper they get an education in the academies but reality...)

I don't think we want that for US kids and we shouldn't want that for Latin kids either. Problem is that even with a school education for many the ceiling  in the Dominican republic is limited so the risk is worth it for them and even a 10k bonus is the most money they will ever see in their lives so I'm not condemning them for taking the chance.

Now it is possible to turn pro without playing HS. Given the same talent teams probably prefer a kid who played HS but I'm sure a kid who only played travel throwing 96 will get drafted.

Is he dumber than a tree stump or just lazy? If he’s lazy it means he doesn’t want baseball badly enough. If he’s not very bright he should still be able to make it through the lowest level of high school or vo-tech. If he gets a GED he’s a high school graduate.

I’m not a baseball insider. But if this kid isn’t motivated enough to pass the lowest level of high school where the average graduating gpa is 3.5 what happens when he hits a challenge in the minors? 

Don’t assume Carribean players lack intelligence just because they sign at 16 and come to the US. 

some summer teams provide "scholarships"  for financially strapped families.  some will pay the expenses for good players to play for then . 

Also get a GED go to JUCO.

keep working on getting better. 

Truthfully, if the kid were that good and scouts knew about him I'm sure he would've received the - GED/please just graduate talk - and a team would have picked him up for cheap. 

But let's say this kid did sign at 16 and went to the minors. If he doesn't cut it in 5 years. Now he is a 21 year old with no HS education; and with minor league pay, presumably broke. 

Another problem is that the Dominican kids have been playing against adults most of their teenage years. Washed up former players, prospects that never signed, journeymen. The 16 year old from the US is seeing HS pitching. How often are they seeing 90, how often are they seeing 86? How often are they even playing against other D1 caliber players? Unless they're on the travel circuit with one of the top 25 travel teams in the country, they're almost never exposed to that, let alone on a regular basis. 

If he's that good, or even close to it, why isn't he playing summer ball? I've seen plenty of kids playing on nationally recognized summer teams for free ( travel included in many cases). It's basically their marketing budget.

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

CTbballDad posted:

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

Why?

Some people just don't have it in certain things. If academics is one of those things for someone, it does no good to waste resources on something in which they will never be proficient nor ever use.

I have been around a lot of players who have been drafted.  I'd suggest that those players with weaker grades and a lot of talent often get drafted and signed.  They aren't "college material" and so, if they have the ability, those scouts know the lay of the land and that those players will sign for a prayer.  Of course, many of those players who don't get the grades go the JUCO route to get seen.  

Matt13 posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

Why?

Some people just don't have it in certain things. If academics is one of those things for someone, it does no good to waste resources on something in which they will never be proficient nor ever use.

Well that is part of playing HS sports. They're extracurriculars that are part of the school itself, you need to be academically eligible to play. As far as wasting resources, that is a whole different argument that goes beyond student athletes to the public school system, plenty of which I'm sure I would agree with. 

But I do not fault the school. It is not hard to pull a C- and just get by to be eligible to play/graduate. It is the sport that is optional, not the education. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but all this kid has to do is graduate HS or earn his GED or even just not enroll in college anywhere and he is still eligible to get drafted/signed in some capacity? 

RJM posted:

Is he dumber than a tree stump or just lazy? If he’s lazy it means he doesn’t want baseball badly enough. If he’s not very bright he should still be able to make it through the lowest level of high school or vo-tech. If he gets a GED he’s a high school graduate.

I’m not a baseball insider. But if this kid isn’t motivated enough to pass the lowest level of high school where the average graduating gpa is 3.5 what happens when he hits a challenge in the minors? 

Don’t assume Carribean players lack intelligence just because they sign at 16 and come to the US. 

So I'm not talking intelligence....  I'm talking opportunity to shine and REALLY sharpen baseball skills.  Caribbean players have more opportunity than US kids to play baseball. (I know about their life and conditions... talking baseball here, not life in general.  I get it.).  I do sense an unease in the baseball community with the rise of the Int'l player.  Not out of racism or anything like that, but out of knowing that we can play too, but somehow we are stunting our own baseball development.   I could be wrong here.  This is just a subject I'm exploring out of intellectual curiosity.

It doesn't appear that anyone has been bold enough to create a program that circumvents the high school model.   I don't know of any kid that has exclusively gone through club and "made it"...

BobbyBaseball posted:

 

It doesn't appear that anyone has been bold enough to create a program that circumvents the high school model.   I don't know of any kid that has exclusively gone through club and "made it"...

Not sure what you mean by "made it".  I do know that a recent grad of my son's HS procured a D1 scholarship while only playing travel.  Ignored HS ball as a freshman and sophomore and committed as a soph.  Did play HS as a junior and senior.  He was a PO, and the school is a state power.  My guess is that he didn't want to waste any pitches playing sub varsity and saved them for the Summer.

I think that at some point main stream travel teams will compete with HS in the Spring season.  There is too much money to be made for them to sit on the sidelines forever.

 

I think that at some point main stream travel teams will compete with HS in the Spring season.  There is too much money to be made for them to sit on the sidelines forever.

I can see that happening...  

 

Not sure what you mean by "made it".  I do know that a recent grad of my son's HS procured a D1 scholarship while only playing travel.  Ignored HS ball as a freshman and sophomore and committed as a soph.  Did play HS as a junior and senior.  He was a PO, and the school is a state power.  My guess is that he didn't want to waste any pitches playing sub varsity and saved them for the Summer.

 

I'd be interested to know if said D1 had any say in him playing jr/sr years.

Throughout the Caribbean baseball is the Number 1 sport.  Track and soccer are popular but baseball and the draw of the US makes baseball huge.  

With the advent of baseball academies run by MLB clubs it creates a draw for kids to focus exclusively on playing ball.  An poor kid in DR just does not have the opportunities for an education based future that a US kid has.  Nothing to do with brains in the heads of those kids...just a fact of life there.

So they are all in on baseball.  The thread going on right now about "Where are the baseball players?" has all kinds of ideas on pull for US kids in different directions.  Then there is the problem of why potential US players of color are skipping the sport altogether.

Unless football dies over the concussion issue - and it might actually be starting - US based baseball is no better than the 3rd option for premier athletes and it is increasingly a dogfight with soccer and lacrosse for that position.

...............they are all in on baseball.  The thread going on right now about "Where are the baseball players?" has all kinds of ideas on pull for US kids in different directions.  ..............

 

Thanks for the heads up on the other thread.  Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced that there's not a draw for players.   My angle is that the players we draw are stunted by a "system" that holds them back.  Grade dynamics in this thread, HS baseball politics, money etc. etc.  Are all of those things, prevent us from being all in on baseball like the Int'l players are?  Did MLB realize this and abandon (although not completely) the US baseball pipeline.

A really close look at the minor leagues tells me that it's possible....   I love going to low level games here in AZ.   Rookie, developmental leagues etc...  Lots of of Caribbean players in the pipeline...  sprinkled in are others.  Seems to me that there is a career path issue...  Although many would argue Baseball is not a wise career path to aspire to. 

PABaseball posted:

Matt13 posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

Why?

Some people just don't have it in certain things. If academics is one of those things for someone, it does no good to waste resources on something in which they will never be proficient nor ever use.

Well that is part of playing HS sports. They're extracurriculars that are part of the school itself, you need to be academically eligible to play. As far as wasting resources, that is a whole different argument that goes beyond student athletes to the public school system, plenty of which I'm sure I would agree with. 

But I do not fault the school. It is not hard to pull a C- and just get by to be eligible to play/graduate. It is the sport that is optional, not the education. 

I'm not talking about HS sports, though. If you were, I agree.

Matt13 posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

Why?

Some people just don't have it in certain things. If academics is one of those things for someone, it does no good to waste resources on something in which they will never be proficient nor ever use.

Strongly disagree. Not everyone can become  rocket engineer but in education every bit counts. College degree is better than HS degree but even if you can't go to college people who have a hs degree do significantly better than guys with a no degree.

It is not ideal but if he somehow makes it through hs he still could do something like a training as a plumber and have a decent albeit not great living. If he drops out of hs not even that is probably possible.

Even if learning is not "his thing" he should do everything to avoid becoming a hs drop out. Even a bad hs degree is better than not finishing hs.

BobbyBaseball posted:

RJM posted:

Is he dumber than a tree stump or just lazy? If he’s lazy it means he doesn’t want baseball badly enough. If he’s not very bright he should still be able to make it through the lowest level of high school or vo-tech. If he gets a GED he’s a high school graduate.

I’m not a baseball insider. But if this kid isn’t motivated enough to pass the lowest level of high school where the average graduating gpa is 3.5 what happens when he hits a challenge in the minors? 

Don’t assume Carribean players lack intelligence just because they sign at 16 and come to the US. 

So I'm not talking intelligence....  I'm talking opportunity to shine and REALLY sharpen baseball skills.  Caribbean players have more opportunity than US kids to play baseball. (I know about their life and conditions... talking baseball here, not life in general.  I get it.).  I do sense an unease in the baseball community with the rise of the Int'l player.  Not out of racism or anything like that, but out of knowing that we can play too, but somehow we are stunting our own baseball development.   I could be wrong here.  This is just a subject I'm exploring out of intellectual curiosity.

It doesn't appear that anyone has been bold enough to create a program that circumvents the high school model.   I don't know of any kid that has exclusively gone through club and "made it"...

I just don't think it is desirable. Getting a C- is not that hard. I don't think we want to encourage US kids to forget education and focus everything on baseball.

If you want to play baseball you find a way to get your C-. A few guys don't make it but those aren't high numbers.

Also all the guys already play travel, it is just those 2-3 months a year you play hs. You could replace those with travel too but honestly this is a red flag. If you throw 98 it doesn't matter but a team will ask why:

-can't you follow direction (don't play a team sport then)?

-too lazy to fight for a goal?

-ego issue?

I know it is different for Latin players but in the us it will always be education before sports until they are 18 and rightfully so.

90% of drafted players never make the majors so skipping school and focusing all day on baseball is just not a valid career choice.

Dominik85 posted:

Matt13 posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

Why?

Some people just don't have it in certain things. If academics is one of those things for someone, it does no good to waste resources on something in which they will never be proficient nor ever use.

Strongly disagree. Not everyone can become  rocket engineer but in education every bit counts. College degree is better than HS degree but even if you can't go to college people who have a hs degree do significantly better than guys with a no degree.

It is not ideal but if he somehow makes it through hs he still could do something like a training as a plumber and have a decent albeit not great living. If he drops out of hs not even that is probably possible.

Even if learning is not "his thing" he should do everything to avoid becoming a hs drop out. Even a bad hs degree is better than not finishing hs.

That's all great, and it doesn't apply to whom I'm refering.

BobbyBaseball posted:

RJM posted:

Is he dumber than a tree stump or just lazy? If he’s lazy it means he doesn’t want baseball badly enough. If he’s not very bright he should still be able to make it through the lowest level of high school or vo-tech. If he gets a GED he’s a high school graduate.

I’m not a baseball insider. But if this kid isn’t motivated enough to pass the lowest level of high school where the average graduating gpa is 3.5 what happens when he hits a challenge in the minors? 

Don’t assume Carribean players lack intelligence just because they sign at 16 and come to the US. 

So I'm not talking intelligence....  I'm talking opportunity to shine and REALLY sharpen baseball skills.  Caribbean players have more opportunity than US kids to play baseball. (I know about their life and conditions... talking baseball here, not life in general.  I get it.).  I do sense an unease in the baseball community with the rise of the Int'l player.  Not out of racism or anything like that, but out of knowing that we can play too, but somehow we are stunting our own baseball development.   I could be wrong here.  This is just a subject I'm exploring out of intellectual curiosity.

It doesn't appear that anyone has been bold enough to create a program that circumvents the high school model.   I don't know of any kid that has exclusively gone through club and "made it"...

So, you want the kid to play baseball, skip High School all together, not pay any money to play and create some model based on the Dominican Republic?  Do some research on the DM and how kids are exploited.  Sure, there are those that make it to the MLB, but many more who are thrown to the curb once they don't.

I'm not a fan of the Caribbean ballplayers that I have seen up close on the travel ball side of things...they have a style that rubs me the wrong way...not hustling out of the box on grounders, chasing pitches way out of the strike zone repeatedly, catchers trying to pickoff runners while throwing from the crouch and the ball going into centerfield, infielders throwing with weird arm angles, poor plate discipline...and being generally uncoachable when trying to correct these issues..they know that some travel coaches will buy into their flashy style of play and will pay for their expenses to be on their travel team to the chagrin of the other kids who are paying full freight..but is it really worth it?..they make enough errors and dumb plays that in the end it cancels out the good...you have to understand that their style of play is cultural..you can't coach the bad parts out of them...and academics is not part of that culture. AND...do you really know how old they actually are?...we had one that claimed to be 17 who was throwing 92 in 18u who was found out to be almost 20.

Dominik85 posted:

Matt13 posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I think you bring up good points, but there should be rules in place for maintaining grades in order to play.  I just wonder if the student, parents, faculty, coach have done enough to address his grades.  Perhaps he has a learning disability and needs special attention.  With the right amount of guidance and support, he should be able to get his grades up.  

Why?

Some people just don't have it in certain things. If academics is one of those things for someone, it does no good to waste resources on something in which they will never be proficient nor ever use.

Strongly disagree. Not everyone can become  rocket engineer but in education every bit counts. College degree is better than HS degree but even if you can't go to college people who have a hs degree do significantly better than guys with a no degree.

It is not ideal but if he somehow makes it through hs he still could do something like a training as a plumber and have a decent albeit not great living. If he drops out of hs not even that is probably possible.

Even if learning is not "his thing" he should do everything to avoid becoming a hs drop out. Even a bad hs degree is better than not finishing hs.

This is a digress from baseball, but I greatly disagree with this. I would prefer my son trained as a plumber than the degree plan most college athletes pursue.  Plumbing and other trades, including entrepreneurship has many more financial and fulfilling opportunities than the bottom rung degrees athletes are pushed to.

Beginning journeyman pipefitters, welders, electricians, heavy equipment operators and carpenters are pulling $100,000 a year (by working their ass off) on the Texas coast as the oil majors refurbish their refineries, mostly driven by the increase in crude oil/gas production and the change in corporate tax laws last year.  Starting wages of $25-$30 an hour, 60-70 hours a week, signing bonuses, $125 a day per diem.  Many get a travel trailer and follow the plant turnarounds up and down the coast.  There is a labor shortage of these trades.  Many of the jobs are filled by H2B workers from primarily Asia, but from around the globe.

And plumbing is recession proof, because you never stop __________.

So it looks like I stepped into Taboo territory here....kinda.  Haha

My purpose for the post wasn’t about dismissing education.  It was more about dismissing how difficult and fleeting baseball / athletic talent can be to maintain.   A season of red card could cost a player nearly 5 mos of reps.

Now let’s consider the extreme that red cards are taken.  I don’t think I said a kid has to be dumb as a rock or lazy to get red carded.  A kid could be a average A, B, And occasionally C student and suddenly run ito a class, say physics, computer programming or calculus... that just whips his arse....  booom! 59% after the first test... booom! Red card... booom! Spiral.  

The arse kicking class thing has happen to a lot of kids... who go on to D1... but then again they might not be baseball players....  I theorize that if it happens to a baseballers at the wrong time, the consequences could be tragic.

what I’m getting at is,  does the zero tolerance (of anything) method really help or hurt baseballers / athletes?

A kid could be a good enough student that an eventual D (by the skin of their teeth) won’t hurt their prospects of getting into a D1.  BUT, the loss of playing time costs him D1 looks, MLB radar time and diminishes skill.  THAT could cost them more than the D they got.  is that a good thing or bad.   How does the zero tolerance thing play out on, skill, visibility and development... it may or may not.  But I have to wonder.  

I only brought up Int’l kids because they don’t have such hurtles.

i could be wrong here, but the whole red card thing is a fairly new phenomenon.  I’d be curious of how that MINDSET would have impacted the path of MLBer of say just  5/10yrs ago.  We’ll never know....  but is the MLBs turn to the Carrabian a symptom of something wrong with youth baseball development?  I say yes..  is this MINDSET a problem overall?

my kids and I have a joke that makes light of that mindset...  when one of them swings and misses during soft toss, I say “that’s it, your NEEEVER making varsity” because of 1 bad swing....  then we laugh...

because it’s becoming true... the mindset that everything hangs in the balance, every test, every class, everything... its a bit much. 

I am not familiar with the red-card, yellow-card system, but if a kid can't get through on-level public high school classes with a passing average, either the kid is lazy (which doesn't sound like the case here) or he has an undiagnosed or untreated learning disability, and his parents or teachers are failing him.  This kid needs someone to go to bat for him and show him a way or make him a way.

On a more general note, I am as pro-education as they come (I homeschooled three kids, I have a kid getting a Ph.D. at Stanford, etc.), but I appreciate that the window to play baseball, dance, swim, or be a gymnast is very short compared to the much longer window during which one can acquire an education.  If you want to do the bare minimum of school so you can get a professional ballet contract at 17, knock yourself out.  School will always be there, but dance won't, and neither will baseball.  My baseball player is only a freshman, but I can definitely see baseball affecting his grades.  They're fine, but is he going to end up with a B in a class here or there that he could have pulled to an A with more hours in his day?  Sure.  It is the very rare student who can practice 24 hours/week and not have it affect his grades (and I had one, a gymnast--the one now at Stanford, so I know what it looks like).  And that's okay with me.

Baseball players on high school teams are student athletes. Students first, athletes second. My son's HS coach will not let kids play if they have less than a C average, although they may not be formally "red carded". I personally know of a few kids who likely would have fallen below a C average if they didn't have to reach that bar to play.  I don't agree that academic expectations in high school are a "mind set".  You can get drafted without having played in high school, so this student could hypothetically focus on summer play and show cases to be seen and hopefully find resources during the school year to help him graduate. 

BBMomAZ posted:

Baseball players on high school teams are student athletes. Students first, athletes second. My son's HS coach will not let kids play if they have less than a C average, although they may not be formally "red carded". I personally know of a few kids who likely would have fallen below a C average if they didn't have to reach that bar to play.  I don't agree that academic expectations in high school are a "mind set".  You can get drafted without having played in high school, so this student could hypothetically focus on summer play and show cases to be seen and hopefully find resources during the school year to help him graduate. 

Interesting.  Seems like the way red card are handed out differ.  The kid I’m talking about had a greater than c average.  But failed one class and was red carded for that class and not for the average.  I think his average was a C because of that class but not sure...  on a personal note,  the a,b,c example I gave above....   that was my son for just one week (2 games).  B average, no play because of one bad test....   he never missed another game and ended that class with a B.... the kid I talk about couldn’t recover til the end of the year and pulled out a C  I think he played on two games.

the mindset I’m talking about isn’t “academic expectations... “ it’s more about the absolute zero tolerance of even a blip on the radar.  If you apply that mindset to everything, we’d all be failures. Including me and probably every person with that mindset. With my sons example, he would have recovered quickly with or without missing games.  I wasn’t worried, it’s one test early in the year.  So I didn’t care if he missed a game or not, but down inside I thought it was silly.  With the other kid, at the end of the day he passed.  Missing games didn’t change that, he still had to show up for practice.  Although not allowed to fully participate   The majority of his “punishment” was not being allowed at games.  Hell, I don’t even think he had to do tutoring (smh).

At any rate, the hallmark of highly successful people is that they fail... but move on.  The mindset of which is speak is the mindset that failure is a stopping point and the world stops until that one failure is fixed.  I just reject that premise. We seem to punish the blips and pounce instead of sitting back and asking... is that a blip, or a trend?  

Bobby....you don't seem to think a kid could "make it" just by playing travel?  That couldn't be further from the truth.  Would he at least need to graduate HS?  Sure, then he could either be drafted or go to a JUCO....but not playing for his local HS team won't necessarily matter....as long as he can at least get thru HS, even if his grades are awful.

My son was a good student, great ACT, but from a small town HS in Ohio.  He ended up with a baseball scholarship to a D1.  I will GUARANTEE you that if he hadn't played travel ball during his HS years that he wouldn't have ended up at a D1.  In 3 years of varsity baseball, in a league that's got a team that has 6 or 7 guys currently in the pros (MLB or Minors) I can tell you that we never saw a D1 guy at any of our games.  A few D2 and D3's from local schools,  but that's all.  My son played the summer between his junior and senior year in HS on a very well known travel club here in Ohio.  They had two 17U teams....and they both played at the same events.  There were regularly 40+ coaches at their weekend events.  D1's from all over the Midwest and East Coast.   You don't have to be a genius to play college baseball somewhere.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Bobby....you don't seem to think a kid could "make it" just by playing travel?  That couldn't be further from the truth.  Would he at least need to graduate HS?  Sure, then he could either be drafted or go to a JUCO....but not playing for his local HS team won't necessarily matter....as long as he can at least get thru HS, even if his grades are awful.

My son was a good student, great ACT, but from a small town HS in Ohio.  He ended up with a baseball scholarship to a D1.  I will GUARANTEE you that if he hadn't played travel ball during his HS years that he wouldn't have ended up at a D1.  In 3 years of varsity baseball, in a league that's got a team that has 6 or 7 guys currently in the pros (MLB or Minors) I can tell you that we never saw a D1 guy at any of our games.  A few D2 and D3's from local schools,  but that's all.  My son played the summer between his junior and senior year in HS on a very well known travel club here in Ohio.  They had two 17U teams....and they both played at the same events.  There were regularly 40+ coaches at their weekend events.  D1's from all over the Midwest and East Coast.   You don't have to be a genius to play college baseball somewhere.

 

 

 

Your kind of right about me... I’m sceptical.  I just haven’t seen or heard of that path.... 

BobbyBaseball posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

 

 

 

Your kind of right about me... I’m sceptical.  I just haven’t seen or heard of that path.... 

I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the people here will tell you the same thing.  Sure, at the biggest HS's, that are well known for producing baseball talent, you may get recruited there, but in most cases, any kids that ends up at a D1 program was probably seen first by a coach at a travel tourney someplace, whether it's PG, PBR, Pastime, etc, etc, etc.  College coaches are in season now...the same time as HS's are playing.  They don't have time to go run around and watch a HS game, they wait until summer or fall, show up at a big event and can watch 20 kids that they want to see, all in the same weekend.  Baseball isn't like football, where you typically can get recruited from your HS games.  

That being said, back to the reason for this whole thread, the kid is still going to have to at least make it thru HS.

To get back on track, I don't see the current US system as a problem at all. In fact I see it as far superior to the Latin American systems. It is nice to be able to sign at 16, but for every player that signs a $600k contract, there are a lot more that stopped going to school to focus on baseball and went nowhere with it. Even in the US, so very few make it. It makes having some sort of education that much more important. Take a look at the poverty levels and a lot of the economic stats for the countries mentioned. There's a reason why they are exempt from the MLB draft rules. It would be nearly impossible to enforce on them anyway. 

I actually think MLB got it right. Graduate from HS so you have some sort of safety net, then do what you want. I don't believe the kids from the Caribbean have more opportunities, I don't think the US is stunting the development of younger player with the current system, and I don' think anybody feels threatened by the influx of Latin American players. 

Bottom line is that all the kid has to do is pass that physics class or whatever he is taking and he will be eligible for the draft in June where he would most likely sign for a decent penny. Can't fault the school or the MLB. They just want him to be prepared incase baseball doesn't work, which it often does not. 

UCTbballDad posted:

BobbyBaseball posted:

RJM posted:

Is he dumber than a tree stump or just lazy? If he’s lazy it means he doesn’t want baseball badly enough. If he’s not very bright he should still be able to make it through the lowest level of high school or vo-tech. If he gets a GED he’s a high school graduate.

I’m not a baseball insider. But if this kid isn’t motivated enough to pass the lowest level of high school where the average graduating gpa is 3.5 what happens when he hits a challenge in the minors? 

Don’t assume Carribean players lack intelligence just because they sign at 16 and come to the US. 

So I'm not talking intelligence....  I'm talking opportunity to shine and REALLY sharpen baseball skills.  Caribbean players have more opportunity than US kids to play baseball. (I know about their life and conditions... talking baseball here, not life in general.  I get it.).  I do sense an unease in the baseball community with the rise of the Int'l player.  Not out of racism or anything like that, but out of knowing that we can play too, but somehow we are stunting our own baseball development.   I could be wrong here.  This is just a subject I'm exploring out of intellectual curiosity.

It doesn't appear that anyone has been bold enough to create a program that circumvents the high school model.   I don't know of any kid that has exclusively gone through club and "made it"...

So, you want the kid to play baseball, skip High School all together, not pay any money to play and create some model based on the Dominican Republic?  Do some research on the DM and how kids are exploited.  Sure, there are those that make it to the MLB, but many more who are thrown to the curb once they don't.

Never said skip HS.   Skip HS baseball and play in some, highly competitive spring club league... sure.  Yeah, his parents would have to pay.   I’d wonder if that’s an acceptable path for colleges though.   Like I said, his problem isn’t with school, it’s with a class.  But it did get me thinking... what if he just said to hell with HS ball, passed his classes and played elsewhere. Where he didn’t have to worry about the carrot and stick.   

Our red card was per class also.  I felt sorry for kids at times because I could not play them when they had a B average overall just struggled in one class.  But I will have to say that in every case, the kid lacked the desire to pass.  Ours was week by week you could go on and off red card according to your grades.  I would not allow a kid to practice but required them to either come to practice or go to tutoring each day if they were on red card.  I never had  a kid who was consistently on red card that wanted to play bad enough to learn the material.    And in every case there was a parent problem also. 

I would also say the kid that his parents don't care enough to help him pass a class to be eligible are not going to help him play summer ball even if a top level team is willing to pay all the expenses.  Home life kills kids in every sport.  You can't beat the home life some times.

BobbyBaseball posted:

Never said skip HS.   Skip HS baseball and play in some, highly competitive spring club league... sure.  Yeah, his parents would have to pay.   I’d wonder if that’s an acceptable path for colleges though.   Like I said, his problem isn’t with school, it’s with a class.  But it did get me thinking... what if he just said to hell with HS ball, passed his classes and played elsewhere. Where he didn’t have to worry about the carrot and stick.   

They already have that. It is called HS baseball, which for the most part is competitive. You were originally saying that the kid needed HS ball to get looks and his future prospects were not good without it. Now you're saying maybe skip HS ball for a spring league. 

It's not necessary. Kids play HS ball to play with friends, for rivalry games, to win conference, district, county, state championships. Scouts still show up for the draftable players. Kids are going to give that up because there is a chance they might get drafted in the 12th round? These kids are almost all doing the summer circuit. I'm not sure how popular a spring league would be playing the same 8 or 9 teams for 5 months. At the end of the day all this kid has to do is pass this one class and he's fine. Creating leagues for those who don't take care of schoolwork benefits nobody and just shows that school doesn't matter if you're good at sports. Truthfully I'm not sure how many college/pro prospects are effected by poor grades. It happens, but I'm not sure it is a widespread issue. 

CatcherDadNY posted:

I'm not a fan of the Caribbean ballplayers that I have seen up close on the travel ball side of things...they have a style that rubs me the wrong way...not hustling out of the box on grounders, chasing pitches way out of the strike zone repeatedly, catchers trying to pickoff runners while throwing from the crouch and the ball going into centerfield, infielders throwing with weird arm angles, poor plate discipline...and being generally uncoachable when trying to correct these issues..they know that some travel coaches will buy into their flashy style of play and will pay for their expenses to be on their travel team to the chagrin of the other kids who are paying full freight..but is it really worth it?..they make enough errors and dumb plays that in the end it cancels out the good...you have to understand that their style of play is cultural..you can't coach the bad parts out of them...and academics is not part of that culture. AND...do you really know how old they actually are?...we had one that claimed to be 17 who was throwing 92 in 18u who was found out to be almost 20.

Latin youth players do make a lot of errors. But they do have a different approach to development.

American players are taught findamentals first. Be patient at the plate, make contact, throw strikes, plant your feet.

But latin players will try the flashy play again and again until they can make it. They will swing for the fences, make the running play when they don't need it and throw from their knees. That leads to a lot of losing but also means that they can make the bog play later.

At 15u I'd rather have the American shortstop who plants his feet and makes the easy play but once he is in pro ball the american shortstop will be shifted to third and the latin guy plays short because he can do this

https://youtu.be/FEou9pWJVS0

BobbyBaseball posted:

UCTbballDad posted:

 

Never said skip HS.   Skip HS baseball and play in some, highly competitive spring club league... sure.  Yeah, his parents would have to pay.   I’d wonder if that’s an acceptable path for colleges though.   Like I said, his problem isn’t with school, it’s with a class.  But it did get me thinking... what if he just said to hell with HS ball, passed his classes and played elsewhere. Where he didn’t have to worry about the carrot and stick.   

A  spring league wouldn't do him any good with regard to being seen...as again, college coaches are in season and pro scouts are already out watching college guys, and the top HS kids.  Most of the recruiting/scouting is done in the summer.  If he is as good as you say he is and isn't flunking out of HS, he shouldn't have any issues being seen, even if it's only a JUCO.  To be drafted straight out of HS high school is tough.    What grade is this kid?  Position?   Height, weight?   Any other measurables? 

PitchingFan posted:

Our red card was per class also.  I felt sorry for kids at times because I could not play them when they had a B average overall just struggled in one class.  But I will have to say that in every case, the kid lacked the desire to pass.  Ours was week by week you could go on and off red card according to your grades.  I would not allow a kid to practice but required them to either come to practice or go to tutoring each day if they were on red card.  I never had  a kid who was consistently on red card that wanted to play bad enough to learn the material.    And in every case there was a parent problem also. 

I would also say the kid that his parents don't care enough to help him pass a class to be eligible are not going to help him play summer ball even if a top level team is willing to pay all the expenses.  Home life kills kids in every sport.  You can't beat the home life some times.

Bobbybaseball, my experience was same as Pitchingfan's...  zero tolerance is rarely really zero tolerance.  If a student had an F in a class, he couldn't participate but it was for a limited time and there were also eligibility passes one could use on a limited basis.  Those who remained ineligible for any length of time usually had deeper issues - learning disabilities, home problems, attitude problems, etc.  There are non-HS spring programs in some of the bigger areas where the need/overflow is big enough.  But really, as others have stated, if he's good enough, he'll play some travel or showcase somewhere and get the attention needed.  If he's that good, some of these travel teams will help him with any expense concerns.  Don't know if it has recently changed but there are also regional MLB tryouts that are free or very inexpensive. 

You mentioned something about missing 5 months of reps.  A player with aspirations and sufficient work ethic (even if it is just toward baseball) wouldn't let this happen, regardless of the school situation.  He'll make sure he continues to work on his game on his own or otherwise.  And any player who is hoping to fulfill his baseball aspirations will ALWAYS have carrot/stick challenges in front of him, regardless of HS or no HS.  Unless there is a specific learning disability, a student/athlete who can't figure out how to fix a HS grade issue isn't likely to figure out how to navigate the challenges of MiLB.  And, there are a few really good documentaries about the real life struggles of the majority of foreign players who fail to stick in the minors.  It's not a desirable path that one would want to emulate.  Figure out the school thing first.  Build the foundation for the next 40 years.