How did he reach 1st?

Actually saw somethng similar in the LLWS. batter was scored as SAC but was shown as reaching base on a FC. I think it sort of depends on the perspective of the scorer as to wherther the batter would have been safe or not if the throw went to first instead of elsewhere.

BTW the batter was not credited with a rbi, the fielder was credited with an error. A SAC was given because in the scorer's opinion the batter would have been out if the play were made at first. ( i know you can't assume but it is how they scored it at the LLWS)

I'd ask what you'd score if the play had been completed at 3rd base. I'd score FC no Sac since there was an error that aspect doesn't change based on 10.09(b)... in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
I'd ask what you'd score if the play had been completed at 3rd base. I'd score FC no Sac since there was an error that aspect doesn't change based on 10.09(b)... in my opinion.

I’d have done the same. I know its just a quirk and doesn’t come up a whole lot, but when things like that pop up, it makes me think.

Here’s what’s happened. I have a choice of 4 things that can happen at any particular point in time.

One is something can take place before the batter’s at bat is complete, such as a runner steals or gets picked. Another is something that happens after the AB, such as after a single, the batter/runner goes to 2nd on an error, or a runner advances an extra base, like a runner on 1st goes to 3rd on an single rather than just advancing the 1 base.

I thought the other 2 choices were pretty safe. A batter makes an out, or the batter reaches base safely, and of course there are several choices for each. One choice for an out is sac bunt, and one choice for reaches is ROFC. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a choice for a sac bunt AND ROFC. But you can bet you butt I have those choices now!

I’ve run across several “strange” things like that, and it takes a while to figger out not just how to score them because that’s pretty standard stuff. But when there’s no pencil and scoresheet and you’re trying to have the computer do this stuff, it’s a teeny bit more difficult.

I'd only score Sac reached on FC if the runner beat the play without and throwing or fielding error.

Besides who is in charge...people or machines?

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Originally posted by luv baseball:
I'd only score Sac reached on FC if the runner beat the play without and throwing or fielding error.

Can’t do that because then it would be a hit.

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Besides who is in charge...people or machines?

I gotta tell ya. The way it looks right now, with me still needing to refine the moving of the players, and only having taken care of 3 out of the 15 data tables I need to generate the stats I do, its already saving me about 30 minutes per game. I’m expecting if it works only at 90%, its still gonna save me 2 hours per game, and to me that’s a heap of time.

Its really cool that after a game I hit 3 buttons that run 3 programs that take less than a half-second apiece, to do what it’s taken me 30-45 minutes to do in the past. So, I’m sure willing to concede being in charge, at least for this stuff.

I'll side with the majority on the scoring question: If R2 would've been out with ordinary effort play by F4, score FC no SAC. If R2 wouldn't have been out with ordinary effort play by F4, score SAC, reached on FC (and no AB charged). F4 throwing to third on that play is hardly ordinary.

Personally, the idea of scoring electronically is growing on me. Right up until the coach's Palm, running some very old software, dies and I have to rely on old faithful (scorebook and pen - yes I normally score in pen) until I can get the thing rebooted and catch back up. I'm thinking of buying him a new Palm just to avoid the lock ups.

Stats - Not sure I go along with that call. Same rule reads (paraphrasing) in the Exception: In the judgement of the scorer if a play on a procedeing runner fails and a perfect play at first would not have been a putout on batter runner then score a hit.

So my opinion on this play where the play is on R2 and he beats it I have Sac/FC assuming it's clear a clean play at first would have been in time.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Stats - Not sure I go along with that call. Same rule reads (paraphrasing) in the Exception: In the judgement of the scorer if a play on a procedeing runner fails and a perfect play at first would not have been a putout on batter runner then score a hit.

So my opinion on this play where the play is on R2 and he beats it I have Sac/FC assuming it's clear a clean play at first would have been in time.

I had written what I thought was a wonderful post, but somehow I clacked when I should have clicked, and it didn’t get posted. So, rather than try to recreate it, I’ll just comment on this one.

What we’re discussing is really the intricacies of good scoring, what makes it fun for us scorers, and provides good data for those of us who take it seriously enough to even consider questions like this one. I really wish people gave scorers even one tenth of the same respect they give umpires, and I believe the amateur game would be much better off for it.

Just think of how strange it would be to see stats from a LL or HS game that coaches could actually depend on, and how they could be used to much more fairly do things like pick all stars or all city players. Unfortunately, I suppose we’ll just have to put up with what we have, since the only way to raise the general level of scoring would be to have them form associations and pay them the same way umpires get paid, even if it’s a lot less, but that’s never gonna happen.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:…
Personally, the idea of scoring electronically is growing on me. Right up until the coach's Palm, running some very old software, dies and I have to rely on old faithful (scorebook and pen - yes I normally score in pen) until I can get the thing rebooted and catch back up. I'm thinking of buying him a new Palm just to avoid the lock ups.

Personally, I’ve mulled over converting for about 10 years, but although I’ve checked out more software than I’d care to ever do again, they’ve all been lacking, some in lots of ways. The main sticking pint has always been this little tiny palm or smart phone screen that you can barely see in full sun. I’m old and have poor eyesight. Couple that with big fat fingers, and there’s a problem.

Then too there’s the problem with being able to make corrections. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! With a pencil(pen) and paper, I don’t have to miss a pitch, let alone an at bat when I need to go back and change something. Then you’ve got the “press this to get A”, “press that to get “B”, “press something else to get “C”, and you can get the player’s history against LHPs in night games when he was batting 4th! That kid of **** is something they want and need for TV broadcasters, but scorers don’t need that garbage! They just want to score the game.

What I’m trying to with my program, is to make it score a game and generate stats I’m used to, as close to using a paper and pencil(pen) as possible, and do it on a laptop, which most people either have or have access to for a few hours. What I never guessed at though, was that it would take as much time as it has and will. WHEW! I didn’t thing scoring was so complicated!

No doubt scoring doesn't get the respect it deserves. The pay I got was helping to coach my boys through travel ball where my stats were used the way they were supposed to be used. The Hot Dogs sound pretty good though.

Boys got to HS and I became another spectator. Coach was a dictator and all he wanted from the parents was the player the check and silence.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
No doubt scoring doesn't get the respect it deserves. The pay I got was helping to coach my boys through travel ball where my stats were used the way they were supposed to be used. The Hot Dogs sound pretty good though.

Boys got to HS and I became another spectator. Coach was a dictator and all he wanted from the parents was the player the check and silence.

I really get grumpy when I don’t get my dog and Coke! In fact, many times at away games some parent will show up with my “pay”, and I truly appreciate it and let them know.

I understand the deal with the HS coach. Since my boy’s started coaching on the JV team, I’ve gained a new insight about it, but I’ll never understand why so many HS coaches get into the Marine DI persona.

OK, here’s another one I’ve run into.

When there’s catcher’s interference, does the pitch count toward the total pitches since it was a legal pitch, and if so, does it count as a ball or a strike? I honestly never thought about it, and its been so long since I’ve scored one, I can’t say how I did it at the time.

I’m leaning toward counting it as a strike, just because I can’t think of a way a catcher can interfere on a ball. I suppose its possible for the C to grab the hitter or the bat as the pitch is delivered, but other than that, I can’t see it.

Marine DI mode is the nail on the head. Think Lee Earmy from Full Metal Jacket screaming at a recruit something along the line of the "did your parents have any children that lived" and you got this guy.

Anyway on the Catcher's Interferance I would count it toward the pitch count and a strike. The reason is that I don't see how you get it without a swing. Swing = Strike. If it was Strike three I would not award the K though because it doesn't fit any of the definitions in 10.17 although you might be able to stretch 10.17(a)3 into fitting the bill.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Marine DI mode is the nail on the head. Think Lee Earmy from Full Metal Jacket screaming at a recruit something along the line of the "did your parents have any children that lived" and you got this guy.

I had a DI like that in ‘65, and a HS coach from ’62 thru ‘65 who was firm, but didn’t scream, curse, or get in anyone’s face. I can tell you with no hesitation which one I worked the hardest for and who taught me the most, and it was because of respect, not fear or intimidation. My boy’s HS coach was just a notch below Lee Earmy in that movie, and the entire team, not just the V, for the 4 years he was the HC, had FCT written on the underside of their hat bills. His initials were CT, so what does that suggest to you?

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Anyway on the Catcher's Interferance I would count it toward the pitch count and a strike. The reason is that I don't see how you get it without a swing. Swing = Strike. If it was Strike three I would not award the K though because it doesn't fit any of the definitions in 10.17 although you might be able to stretch 10.17(a)3 into fitting the bill.

I agree. Luckily, its something that very rarely happens, but ya got take care of it when it does.

At the moment I’m taking a brain break from another one.

A runner on base can be picked, and a runner on base can be caught stealing. But as you know, if he gets picked and moves toward the next base, you’ve got a bunch of other options that come into play. He can be safe and then he’s still picked but credited with a SB. Or, he can be put out and he’s credited with being caught stealing. But in either case, if he makes that move, he’s given a SB attempt. He can also now move on an E, and the play can certainly be a long one in a rundown, like 1-3-6-1-4-3,

I’ve been giving the option of F1 PO R1, F1 CS R1, and the same for R2 and R3, but I think I’m gonna bite the bullet and redo that logic. Its things like this that try my patience! ROFL!