How do we figure it out?

Good post.

 

I think if you can be honest with yourself (parent) you can take the following litmus test, and it should be fail proof. 

 

If you are looking for a travel team, showcase, or college:  you can watch a practice or game, and ask yourself - "would son look like the square peg trying to fit into the round hole, or does he look like he fits?".  If you can be honest, the truth will be evident.  If you don't feel like you can look past the rose colored glasses, ask an experienced qualified independent person (not his paid coach) to do the same...that test is fail proof in my humble opinion.

IMO you have to get multiple opinions. HS coach, travel coach, scout ball coach, scouts, instructors, friends or friends of friends who have played at the next level. Any player who is serious about playing at the next level will develop these contacts over time. No one answer will be correct but it will help formulate an honest independent perspective. 

If your son is starting on a good travel team it should be somewhat apparent that different level of programs are scouting the talent on the team. If top teams are scouting your team and you are an important part of the team, that should translate into where your opportunities lay.

It should also be apparent by who is talking to your son. Is FSU calling you or the local JUCO getting to know your son.

For my son he was approached by programs of all levels. Several D-1's D-2's and JUCO's. Coaches would call me just to tell me how my son looked at a WWBA tourney that I did not attend. JUCO's approach you at Jupiter events. I think it sort of takes care of itself. The player knows where he can compete and where he can earn a starting role.

It becomes apparent when %'s start being tossed around.

I say these things and yet it did not go down how I thought it would. I wonder sometimes what would have changed if my son had accepted the D-1 offers as opposed to the very generous D-2 offers, then only to decide to play JUCO.

Interesting times, I would love to be able to live through them again!

Happy that my son is still playing!

He had a decent payday on Sunday helping Andrew McCutchen shoot a commercial for New Era Hats and gear, lol. He was amazed by the wardrobe they laid out for him for the shoot. Like 50 watches, 50 belts, racks of clothes etc. My son was tossing him the ball and rolling it to him to field. At one point he was on a ladder tossing it so Andrew could appear to rob a home run!

Still keeping the dream alive hoping for another chance in affiliated ball. I saw a 27 year old was just signed out of the American League this past week. So there is still hope!

   Great topic! A terrific coach for team USA 16U told me " The game will tell you where you can play......and for how long" I believe that is true but the statement doesn't provide a road map for how to figure out where you fit

   As the parent of a pitcher,I consider myself lucky.Pitchers are easier to evaluate and project for NCAA baseball compared to hitters.Pitching is all based on velo and size.

   If you have a pitcher, the quick way is to go to the perfect game website and crosscheck colleges against the stats of their committed pitchers. The numbers speak for themselves. A typical RHP Division 1 baseball pitcher starts at 88 mph + and stands 6'+ and at the High D-1's they exceed 90 mph and they are BIG kids. LHP mid level D-1 85 mph....High D-1 87-90 mph . Size on the left side not as important but it helps.

       Of course this depends on which school you check. It's important for people new to this to know that while NCAA baseball has three Divisions, each individual division sort of has a 'Low, mid, high' thing. UCLA baseball is clearly 'High D-1' ball while maybe Fordham University would be considered ' Low to mid D-1' That being said , UCLA recruits a different pitcher than say Fordham. Both schools are Division 1 programs but frankly have little in common as far as what type of player it attracts or recruits.

         A good rule of thumb with top high D-1 programs like North Carolina or UCLA is that most their recruiting class will also be considered for the MLB draft in June. Simply put: If your son is not draftable its not the right fit.

         The same holds true for Division 3 baseball. A program like California Lutheran or Emory will be looking at a much better player than Cazenovia or Colby-Sawyer.

          Mid level D-3 is going to start RHP 84 mph + , LHP 81 MPH + and size isn't as big of an issue in D-3 ball. High D-3 programs are good because they recruit top players the D-1 schools missed because of some prejudice to size or speed.

          It's not uncommon to see a high D-3 guy throw 88mph+ but maybe with a bad body.

          Lastly, one must factor in the 'academic schools' at the D-1 and primarily D-3 levels. This is a whole other thing. With academic restrictions these schools are attracted to ballplayers with top of their class grades and top standardized test scores. With that they may be a bit more forgiving with the size or in a pitchers case the velocity. But not by much. Especially the Ivys. What people used to consider as low D-1 ball , the Ivys are now competing for players at the mid-D-1 and even top D-1 schools. Ivy league baseball is no joke. Also, the Patriot league. And if you are looking for competitive higher academic small college baseball at the D-3 level. Check out the NCAA D-3 Northwest Conference.

         I really believe the key to recruiting or being recruited is for the player or the school to get 'The right fit' not just with baseball but everything else. Academics, socially, geographically. Most parents that I've met want their kids to play at schools that really are beyond their skill set. A college coach will only recruit players that can help them win. Period. Players and parents ( myself included) need to remember that. There are many, many programs in NCAA baseball for talented and passionate players with different skill sets.

         

         

 

Lots of great info above. If you are new to this, read each of the above posts again carefully. They contain the information you are seeking, but you have to be open and honest with yourself. To me, that is the hard (trick) part. Honest self-evaluations are always difficult, no matter what you are searching for.

 

I think one mistake parents make is to confuse talent with stats.  The kid with the best stats at the lower levels is often the kid who has reached maturity faster.

 

For me, the eye-test is what I used.  I trusted my own eyes.  Getting other people's opinions at the younger ages is a minefield.  Many have agendas and many promote their own kids while trying to diminish others.  Professional opinions can help but there is a financial incentive to provide good news.

 

Here is a good way to tell things.  Forget about stats.  Go to all the games and observe.  For whatever age level, you'll come to understand what the speed of the game is for that level.  Every once and awhile, you'll come across some kid who plays at an elevated speed.  For instance, watch what happens when the velocity goes up.  Some of the "stats" kids who are feasting on mediocre/average pitching will cower in fear or will look lost at the plate.  The competitive kids, with upside, will compete.  Maybe they didn't get a hit but they were killing the third base coach with hard line drives down the line.  How did they compete?  It is a good question to ask.  For pitchers, how did they do when a known good hitting team faced them?  Watch keenly what happens when the competition improves.  See who competes and who doesn't. 

 

For college level and beyond, go to a showcase or camp and see with your own eyes.  Does your son look lost at a D1 camp or showcase?  Does he look better than the competition at a D3 camp?  60 times and radar guns will decide some of these things.  They can't measure the size of someone's heart however.

 

Sports has always been an integral/important thing in my life.  Perhaps my judgment is better than someone who has no interest in sports.  In a case like that, you might have to find someone you can "trust" to help you figure it out.  

To the question in the original post...

 

How about actually going to watch D1, D2, D3, etc baseball games…. in person?

 

Amazes me how many parents, kids, their HS & even travel coaches go to so few college games.  How do you "want" something you've never seen?  How do you "know" a kid can play at a level you've never seen?

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

 

That's exactly what my son and I are doing this spring -- going to a couple each D1 and D2. There is really no D3 baseball around here but we will see a few high-level JC games as well.

Can someone break down PG ratings? I'm guessing a 10 wouldn't be looking at colleges as much as the draft. So where does that leave a 9 or 8 or 7 for college fit? Generally speaking, I know! I know each coach looks for different things but what can a kid do marketing-wise with their rating? 

10"s would be looking at college just as much as the draft, IMO. If not, they should be. I would think that looking at colleges would be more dependent on school grades and test scores as opposed to PG grade.

My 2015 just went through this process.  It is a combination of many factors determined by the RC. It all boils down to the summer between you Junior and senior year.  Your level of play is determined by what division you are being recruited by with the most interest.  Far too often the parents and player are not realistic and get caught up in the size, name and division of the schools they pursue to only transfer the next year.  It was said in a prior post that the game will tell you where you can play!

I am a firm believer that you may start out playing the game where you want but you will ultimately end up playing where you should.

One must also be careful with PG Ratings as they are done at a point in time.  There are many players who went to their first (and only?) PG showcase at an early age, got a rating - 7.5, 8, 8.5 - then developed but never made it back to an PG Showcase (committed early and didn't feel the need, not quite elite enough to be invited to PG National (Jr.), etc.  My point is that one should not compare their 8.0 son to another 8.0 who then developed (threw over 90, etc.) and went to a big time program.

10's should be looking at college, AND will likely be in the draft, but where in the draft?

 

A good example would be the recent catcher for Kennesaw State University, Max Pentecost.  His PG grade was a 9.5, ranked 203 nationally by PG. He did get drafted in the 7th round by the Rangers in 2011...he declined.  He had some GREAT years at KSU and in 2014 he was drafted in the first round by the Blue Jays...with a nice 2.9 MILLION dollar signing bonus...plus he has 3 years of education banked.

Going to do the same as well.

 

 

 

I agree with this.  We just got back from the PG MLK tourney in AZ, lots of good teams and lots of really good ball players.  But you can tell by watching the small number of kids that stand head and shoulders above in tools and talent.  To me, the hard part follows the recognition that "ok, my kid is good but not quite like that".

Thanks for the responses. So, then, how often should a kid go to a PG Showcase as a Soph or Junior? When they've shown improvement in their weaker areas?

I guess that would depend on what position they are trying to be recruited for.  I know of a 2016 catcher who has gone to 1 showcase a year for the last 3 years because he is trying to get his home page to reflect the best stats possible.  When you type in anyone's name their picture comes up and all their stats, but the date of those stats also come up, they take your best one in each category for your home page. 

 

This 2016 has his home page stats running from 2013-2015, and plays in multiple PG tourneys to track that he has been stable in between showcases.  In 2012 his PG grade was a 7.5 and by 2013 he was a 9.5. He has tried to focus on one area for every showcase, this last time (mid junior year) it was his 60 time, which he improved by 0.3 seconds. Previously it was his lowest pop he focused on, which also dropped significantly.

 

  He treats it like a jigsaw puzzle...secure this piece then that piece so the whole picture looks appealing.  Don't get me wrong he can't show a pop time of 1.88 and the next time it records at a 2.1, but he keeps them all fairly consistent while having a goal of one specific thing he wants to improve on each showcase.

There are many ways for a player to get a chance to show their skills to college coaches.  Although showcases are a good way to get exposure, why not identify 4-5 schools that your son wants to attend academically and for baseball.  Once identified, attend their camp and take a visit of the campus.  At their camp the whole coaching staff, from HC on down, will evaluate the skills with their eye, stopwatch, and radar gun to see if there is a fit their program. I know of players who have signed or are playing for major SEC programs whom have never stepped on a showcase field. When you see them at tournaments it is apparent that they can just flat out play.

Ratings do have a place in the evaluation process for some but most coaches want to see the player with their eye.  I am sure if you look at player PG rating, there are many 8 to 8.5 that have secured spots to major D1 programs and also conversely there are some 10 still looking for an opportunity.

"How do you figure out what level of college baseball you should be targeting for your son?  JC, D3, D2, D1...MLB?  How?????"

 

It occurs to me that our friend #NASANerd may be setting us up here.To wit: If this question were to appear exactly as justbaseball asks it, I suspect it would be responded to thusly:

 

You've come to the right place, Newbie! Welcome!

 

First: We'll assume your son is a junior or senior in HS, since you've asked this question, but remember going forward: Age matters.

 

OK, with that out of the way, the most important thing you must understand is that YOU should not be targeting any school at any level for your son. If it's anyone's job, it's Newbie-Junior's. But in reality, it's not his, either.

 

The way it works, which you'll soon discover, is:

 

Colleges are the Target-ers, so to speak, and the Newbie-Juniors of the world are the Targets (or Target-ees, if it helps).

 

So to answer your question, Newbie-Junior should respond to the schools that are targeting him, and he should invite coaches from different schools at that same level to target him as well.

 

Hope this helps.

 

(all in good fun, jb!)

Or new posters could wonder and inquire how jbb's younger pitching son, who is all of about 5'10" with an upper range velocity  of 85-87, ended up at a top 20 program and also ended up being one of the very top pitchers in the nation last Spring!!!  If the "typical" D1 pitcher is taller than 6'(much taller) and is at least 88+ or more as posted in this thread, how does a pitcher who is none of those, or actually even very close, end up as a coveted recruit(before his junior season in HS) and develop into one of the very, very top pitchers in all of college baseball...without doing all the showcasing which seems to drive many(most) parts of so many threads on recruiting, including this one.

My son was drafted out of HS last year and decided to go to a Juco to "learn to take care of myself on my own".  After getting there you see a lot of issues with kids who had to go D1 just so they could say they did.  His team started fall with 8 D1 transfers then added 3 more at Christmas break.  I played D1 and I can't tell you how many freshmen "waited their turn", only to have an incoming juco player take his place.  A high percentage of baseball players end at a different school than they started.  Moral of the story, the question is where can my son play not what school will let him set on their bench.  Assuming playing is more important than the prestige of D1.

Couldn't of been said any more clear!!!

Again, lots of good and accurate advice given. Personally, JABMK's advice is closest to what my son followed. He attended his first PG showcase in June '13 following his sophomore year. Son had some arm issues the previous fall / winter, and we wanted to get an independent evaluation to see where he "stacked up".  Once he got his results, we developed a plan for improvement. He attended a second PG showcase in August of '13, mainly because it was local and he wanted to see if he had made any improvements.  He attended a third PG showcase in December '13 because his travel team went together. He did show improvement at each event. He was selected to the top prospect team and top prospect list at all 3 showcases. This gave us a pretty clear picture of where he fit. He then attended camps at several schools of interest, including his school of choice. He was told by all coached basically we are very interested, but we want to see you in a live game setting next summer (after jr year). My advice would be to follow a similar plan. You need an unbiased evaluation of your kid to help point you in the right direction so you don't waste valuable time and money chasing an unrealistic dream. I am partial to PG because they are the biggest and most of the top players have been seen and evaluated by them. It's easier to compare your son to the larger pool of talent to see where he belongs. This is certainly not the only way to get to the same end, it just seemed to work best for us.

Good stuff, younggun. PG is in a league of its own.

 

The one thing that kinda surprises me is three $600 showcases in seven months.

 

You said your son improved each time, so obviously it was the right decision for y'all. I'm guessing he was working real hard that summer and fall.

 

Maybe you got a discount on the team-deal in December, but setting aside the cost,would you recommend that for others -- and if so, under what specific circumstances?

 

Yes JP, the December showcase was covered by team along with travel and hotel expense. We would not have done that one out of pocket. Yes he was working hard that summer as I felt he was behind with the arm injury in August of '12. Ideally, I would probably recommend a showcase after freshman year to establish a baseline then a second one at the beginning of summer after sophomore year to measure improvement. I would then use the fall and winter of junior year to attend prospect camps of schools of interest. The spring of junior year could be used for unofficial visits to see team practice and / or play games and get to know coaches and get a feel for the campus. Hopefully the following summer will secure offers you hope to get and you can commit by November of senior year. If I had another son (I don't), this would be my precise plan of attack. Just one man's opinion.

#NASAnerd?

ClevelandDad hit the nail on the head I think. It really depends at what level the kid can compete. If you can compete you can have success. On the other hand if the player is way over matched then an adjustment to where and what type of competition has to be made. Nothing wrong with adjustments,its when certain facts are ignored that huge mistakes are made and actually drives kids out of the game.

This always amazes me too. How many kids want to play at a particular program but never have seen them play (TV not counted).  

 

That's pretty cool.

 

Just as an FYI, most, if not all of those American League guys are former AA,AAA, ML guys who play winter ball in latin america.  That's why they get picked up, because of their past experience and because of winter ball.

 

Former player with son on cardinals, Brian Broderick, FA playing this summer on the AL who has had a stint in ML with nationals as a rule 5 pick.  He played this summer with the Skeeters, which lead to a 10K a month contract in Mexico. He got awarded MVReliever  and signed by the dodgers (with invite to spring training) and then got traded. These guys as former FA with MLB experience will not sign contracts unless they get invites to ML spring training or ML mini camp. But they have to show their best stuff in the summer AL as well as down south in winter to get picked up.

 

Its not that easy, as an older FA they want guys with AAA and ML experience to be clubhouse guys for the younger set. At 27,28,29,30 chances are pretty slim they will ever make a 40 man roster.  

 

Usually if you see a 10 that is uncommitted going into his senior year it is because of something other than his ability. Sometimes it is grades, sometimes he simply p[lans to go Pro.  Justin Upton committed later than most in his class.

 

Regarding coaches, what if you asked them this question... Would you rather attend a tournament that had all 6 rated players or one that had all 8 to 10 rated players?

 

There is a reason they pay to show up at certain events and have to be paid to attend others.

 

College camps are great, but how could it possibly be as good as events and results from that event that reach nearly every decision maker in baseball. Or events that have 200 or more colleges and scouts from every MLB club.  It's always best when many are interested.

 

So in the end, it is very simple... The more people that know about you and want you, the better it is. Even if the college you dream about wants you, it works better when other colleges want you. 

 

Even though I am an advocate of college camps, please know this... Recruiting is done before college camp day in most every case.  Colleges know who they want whether they attend their camp or not.  And of course they try hard to get that player to their camp. But they don't turn down an impact player because he failed to attend their camp. I'd like to say that is my opinion, but it is simply a fact!

 

Of course, all scouts and recruiters want to see the kid play. Why wouldn't they? And if a kid is rated a 10 or ranked highly by us, they want to make sure they see him play.

Looks like some great advice here; thanks to all. But what you're telling me is that there's no one-size-fits-all for getting him into the perfect fit school, where he plays every inning of every game for four years, graduates Magna Cum Laude, and lands his dream job?

Seriously, it's an interesting process. I read and agree with remaining calm and understanding it's early for a 2017--I can't imagine this kid driving a car, much less committing to a life two years in the future--but at the same time, I continue to see 2017s commit, and it feels weird to just hang back and wait. Seems like a route he should be taking at this point is to just try to get on the radar of some schools and hope he progresses to an actual recruit? 

Mom, this might be built into your thinking and not stated, but the HS coach of justbb's son(one of the very best anywhere) has posted on our local boards about how "flawed" this process can be and how challenging it can be for parents and players and college coaches.

His perspective is that other than that very top  group which is committing as a freshman/sophomore in HS( and even some of them), the rest need to focus on their game and getting better at it every day, while also getting more explosive and powerful in a baseball way. By getting better as a baseball player, the options for exposure as a junior into the senior year exist which then can make economic sense for most who aspire to play in college. In essence, his view is spend our $$$ on getting better, not on exposure until the exposure might mean something and the player has the talent  which will benefit from exposure.

The challenge in college recruiting and a player selecting the right place where they can play and excel is very different for most son's like mine, and perhaps yours and perhaps most,  who never was a 9-10 but who could really play the game well.  It actually was not until he was a sophomore in college when his D3 coach placed him in the NECBL for the Summer that more than a few contacts through D1 coaches and a couple of very top D2's asked him how he ended up at a D3 and why not move.

+1 infielddad

PGStaff: "College camps are great, but how could it possibly be as good as events and results from that event that reach nearly every decision maker in baseball."

 

My son's experience: Jupiter put him on their radar; camp triggered the offer.

It occurs to me that our friend #NASANerd may be setting us up here.

i kinda like the tag JP - but no, no set up at all. Guess I wasn't thinking so cleverly - Yikes!!  

Great post infieldad.
I especially like the part about spending more time and money on getting better rather than on getting more exposure.

I really like this point by CD:

 For instance, watch what happens when the velocity goes up.  Some of the "stats" kids who are feasting on mediocre/average pitching will cower in fear or will look lost at the plate.  The competitive kids, with upside, will compete

I used to pick my all star teams this way when our sons were 10. 11, 12. I didn't give a crap about stats. I just watched who stood tall when the hi velo pitcher was in the mound. 

 

We we won a lotta games picking our team that way.  I know college coaches wanna see maybe-prospect face sure-thing-prospect to get the same kinda read.