How do you mark picks?

Just semantics, but how do you charge a runner with being picked without giving him a caught stealing?

quote:

Originally posted by JMW37:
Just semantics, but how do you charge a runner with being picked without giving him a caught stealing?

Its in the language of the rule.

(h) The official scorer shall charge a runner as “caught stealing” if such runner is put out, or would have been put out by errorless play, when such runner
(2) is picked off a base and tries to advance (any move toward the next base shall be considered an attempt to advance);

Ergo, if the runner makes no move, such as only diving back, there was no attempt to advance, thus no CS.

Yeah but ..... as to your first point

how can you say the pitcher picked him off unless the runner was going back to the bag and was put out? Anything else, regardless of why,is an attempted advance to the next base, and thus a stolen base or a caught stealing.

You could argue the runner drew the pick off attempt as a means to stealing.

Just sayin ...

quote:

Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
Yeah but ..... as to your first point

how can you say the pitcher picked him off unless the runner was going back to the bag and was put out? Anything else, regardless of why,is an attempted advance to the next base, and thus a stolen base or a caught stealing.

You could argue the runner drew the pick off attempt as a means to stealing.

Just sayin ...

The way I look at it, a pick isn’t defined as making an out. To me it says a runner was caught off base by the defense. There are times he will be put out, but there are also times he won’t. FI, if a runner is caught leaning and initially tries to get back, but decides better and takes off for the next base, at that point in time he’s been picked off. Whether he ends up being safe or out has yet to be determined.

One of the reasons I think about it the way I do, is because of the following. To me, the language in “(c)” comes right out and says plainly that a runner can be picked off but not be out.

OBR 10.07 STOLEN BASES AND CAUGHT STEALING
The official scorer shall credit a stolen base to a runner whenever the runner advances one base unaided by a hit, a putout, an error, a force-out, a fielder’s choice, a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk, subject to the following:
(c) When a runner, attempting to steal, or after being picked off base, evades being put out in a run-down play and advances to the next base without the aid of an error, the official scorer shall credit the runner with a stolen base. If another runner also advances on the play, the official scorer shall credit both runners with stolen bases. If a runner advances while another runner, attempting to steal, evades being put out in a run-down play and returns safely, without the aid of an error, to the base he originally occupied, the official scorer shall credit a stolen base to the runner who advances.

I asked the original question because I know there are a lot of different ways to look at it because there’s no definition in the book, and one can really read a lot of different things into it. Its just something I don’t think a lot of people have given a lot of consideration too.

To me its kind of a shame that pitchers actually get penalized by not being credited with a pick, when something happened he had no control of.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
(c) When a runner, attempting to steal, or after being picked off base, .

Interesting, gotta give you that one, it clearly says "being picked off base" without necessarily being out.

That certainly opens up the interpretation role of the Official Scorer. Was the runner going anyway and the pitcher didn't know other than to be attempting a pick-off? Or does the runner have to make a move back to the bag before taking off?

I have scored it as either an Attempted PickOff or a Stolen Base. Likewise if he is out at the base he is trying to steal, I have considered it a Caught Stealing.

Not that they are necessarily right, but this is the way the folks at Gamechanger offer the options too.

quote:

Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
Interesting, gotta give you that one, it clearly says "being picked off base" without necessarily being out.

That certainly opens up the interpretation role of the Official Scorer. Was the runner going anyway and the pitcher didn't know other than to be attempting a pick-off? Or does the runner have to make a move back to the bag before taking off?

I have scored it as either an Attempted PickOff or a Stolen Base. Likewise if he is out at the base he is trying to steal, I have considered it a Caught Stealing.

Not that they are necessarily right, but this is the way the folks at Gamechanger offer the options too.

No problem! I’ve learned a whole lot about scoring by being forced to read the rules. Like I said at 1st, I’m not trying to get anyone to score the way I do, and I’m certainly not gonna change the way I do it.

Here’s another one we had happen on Tuesday. We had a runner on 1st, and he got caught leaning. Once he knew he was likely dead meat, he took off for 2nd. F3 threw to F6, and as the ball was going to him, the runner stopped and headed back toward 1st. When he saw the ball get thrown back to F3, he stopped and headed back to 2nd. Of course the 3rd base coach was screaming instructions, and when the ball got away from the F3, he screamed to go on to 2nd and slide.

I scored it a PO with a SB, but their scorer scored it an E3. We talked about it for a bit, and I said I’d look it up later to be sure, and talk to their coach about the next day, because they were the official book. Here’s what I found and presented to the coach on Wednesday.

OBR 10.12 ERRORS
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base;

I let him read it and make the final call. He said he’d never read that before, but agreed with me that that was certainly the purpose of making the throw, and he was going to change it.

There’s a lot of things in the rules about runners advancing bases that are interesting and informative, and that aren’t just simple things everyone knows.